RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 17, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2013 Further news from the battlefront! Checked my Roxey ones, non starter, and miscast any way. The base is wrong, but; http://www.keen-systems.com/Pullman.html Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) Thanks to all involved in this, so far, fruitless search for the correct ventilators. I won't give up looking, but think I shall be keeping the vents as they are for now and turn my attention to the DMBS roof. Having had another set of plans today from Mike King, it is clear Hornby haven't copied his roof plans. Indeed, it looks as if the Andy Mullins and Mike King 'production' 2 BIL roof plans are identical and both do not quite tally with any photos of 2 BIL roofs available to me. Given all the issues with the 2 BIL, I am extremely concerned about Hornby's next foray into the EMU market being riddled with the same or similar, avoidable mistakes. (Sworn to secrecy about that one though!) All the best, Colin Edited July 17, 2013 by Colin parks 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 17, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2013 Well I would say that the Pullman vents would be pretty damn close! Funny enough I've just had the VSOE Pullman set run past the box and had a good look at the vents, and they are nice and wide, and if Keens are spot on, I think you might not be wrong in using them. Andy G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted July 17, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) Given all the issues with the 2 BIL, I am extremely concerned about Hornby's next foray into the EMU market being riddled with the same or similar, avoidable mistakes. (Sworn to secrecy about that one though!) All the best, Colin Fully agree with you Colin. A 4CIG with a pantograph would look wrong. Edited July 17, 2013 by Clive Mortimore 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 Well I would say that the Pullman vents would be pretty damn close! Funny enough I've just had the VSOE Pullman set run past the box and had a good look at the vents, and they are nice and wide, and if Keens are spot on, I think you might not be wrong in using them. Andy G Hi Andy, You lucky chap, a real Pullman train out side the window! I am not quite clear what you mean about: 'Keens are spot on' in your post. Is this a reference to the people who also make close-coupling systems?! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 17, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2013 Yes, it would appear that they do pullman parts too (they look quite impressive at that!) click on the link that is in the banner and go to pullmans on their website, the parts are at the bottom. The 11 coach train was made up of genny vans front and rear with 9 Pullmans in the middle, and a 67 on the front. Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 (Sworn to secrecy about that one though!) Colin You can completely trust us Colin - it is just the people we tell you can't trust... Mike - you could be onto something with those Keen vents! Certainly look the best bet so far... Good news is - I just put in a small order - bad news - it was small because he is running out! Worse news is that the chap who cleaned him out was not Colin - job could be held up! They will be in stock again in six weeks. Not expecting my order for 2 weeks or so but will keep everyone posted. I did give Roger a heads up that he might be besieged with orders for these things(!) Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Hi Howard, I used to do a bit of pattern making years ago, I think the shrinkage allowance for whitemetal is 5%. It could well be that all my EMUs of SR type should have this 'wider' ventilator, including the Bulleid 2 HAPs. I think a lot more people follow the EMU topics than would be likely to buy vents, so the business model (excuse the pun) for this venture is not good! I have a suspicion that the Hornby Maunsell coaches have separately applied vents, so will look on Peter's Spares ebay shop. You did say those were correct, so that would be the ideal solution. All the best, Colin I bought several Hornby Maunsells form a well known box shifter in Liverpool - they were missing a few torpedo vents which had either fallen off or never inserted. I asked for replacements and they were duly sent - I may even have a spare one somewhere as they sent extras. So the answer is yes they are separate - the expensive solution is to source a few Maunsells and remove their vents - they would most likely just pop off... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassettLoko Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) Hi Colin,I'm afraid I have a confession to make - for many years, I have kept the Mopok white metal vents loose in a spare parts box. But then today, I found several packets of unopened 'Four Most' LMS torpedo ventilators and GWR shell vents. The LMS vents would appear to be identical to the Mopok S.R. vents(!) and I would say that in all probability they came out from the same workshop! (In this instance, a.b.s. models.)For years I have been perfectly happy with the torpedo vents fitted to all my Southern carriages - even to the point of preferring their appearance to the ones used on the latest Hornby stock! I now have to admit, that after examining the ventilator detail on the 4-SUB at Durnsford Road, (thanks Simon) I'm afraid the cowls on the Mopok/Four Most/a.b.s. versions are actually too narrow. I would be happy to send you a couple of samples for evaluation, but I fear you might be disappointed?I must agree with Andy though, that the 'Keen Systems' resin Pullman ventilators do look remarkably close to those fitted on the 4-SUB.The vents on the Hornby Maunsell stock appear to me to be too small, and in any case, and i.m.o., they sit too low on the roof! In Haresnape's book on Southern Liveries, there is an excellent broadside photograph of a Maunsell corridor composite coach, as refurbished for the 'Bournemouth Limited' in 1938. If you line up a thin sheet of paper across the tops of the two lavatory roof tanks, it intersects the ventilators only very slightly above the centre line of the 'horn points'. The top of the cowl is considerably higher. Repeating the same exercise on a Hornby coach, the entire height of the ventilator barely exceeds the height of the water tank. By rule of thumb, I should say that they look to be 10-15% undersize. EDIT: Undersize in height and breadth, as viewed from the side, whereas the width over the cowl and 'horns', as viewed from above, seems to be about right!I am intrigued by the very suggestion that Hornby should be contemplating producing further Southern emu's! Perhaps I shall stall scratch-building the planned sets of 4-COR units, and just live in hope.............(!)Very best wishesBertie. Edited July 17, 2013 by BassettLoko Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 Well, thanks for the feedback re. the Keen vents to you all. I have had a look and they do indeed look to be the best choice. I shall put in an order and just hope for the best, bearing in mind what Howard said about availability. The lamp tops should be on their way soon as I have re-ordered. Having managed to access the Southern Pride website last night I learnt that the P.O. box is no longer in use. Goodness only knows where my first letter and cheque has ended up! This project seems jinxed though, I haven't got enough 0.4mm Plastruct plastic rod in stock to put in the train control conduits. Grr! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassettLoko Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 (edited) Hmm, yes, I do share your frustrations, Colin! Especially as the Hornby mistakes were largely avoidable. But I suppose at the very bottom line, they did so nearly get it right, and who of us could scratch-build a 2-BIL with that level of detail and quality of finish? Certainly not I! If someone were to photoshop a genuine railway background to Bazza's evocative photo of his 2-BIL, (#791, on Colin's original 'Hornby 2-BIL thread') then I think a good many could be fooled into thinking it was *real. That said, when viewed from some other angles, the suppressed wedge shape of the cab is more obvious and distracting - but certainly not in that view! *EDIT: With the addition of either a suitable headcode number, or an opal glass panel and a paraffin tail lamp!!! Returning to the vents issue, Roger Keen's close-up photo of a 12" to the foot Pullman ventilator, suggests to me that it is sitting on quite a substantial 'plinth' base. This may be a problem for use on other Southern stock. It is difficult to see if Roger has replicated this plinth in his mouldings, as his small-scale advertisement photo shows 20 vents on sprues, inside a cellophane packet! Has anyone actually seen these vents? All the best, Bertie. Edited July 18, 2013 by BassettLoko Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 18, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2013 (edited) Returning to the vents issue, Roger Keen's close-up photo of a 12" to the foot Pullman ventilator, suggests to me that it is sitting on quite a substantial 'plinth' base. This may be a problem for use on other Southern stock. It is difficult to see if Roger has replicated this plinth in his mouldings, as his small-scale advertisement photo shows 20 vents on sprues, inside a cellophane packet! Has anyone actually seen these vents? All the best, Bertie. I had considered that. If the oversize bases are present, with them being resin, it "should" be a reasonably easy task to thin them down, especially for a modeller of Colins ability. Mike. PS. 2 BIL bodies sat at Extreme Etchings Towers as of last night awaiting measurement for Laserglaze. Edited to include PS. Edited July 18, 2013 by Enterprisingwestern 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassettLoko Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Sorry Mike, just read #151, and realised you have already mentioned that the base is wrong. Doh! Bertie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 PS. 2 BIL bodies sat at Extreme Etchings Towers as of last night awaiting measurement for Laserglaze. Edited to include PS. He he!!! What you need is well connected friends is that not right Mike!!! Best wishes, Howard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 18, 2013 Author Share Posted July 18, 2013 (edited) After the cogitation over roof vents, it seemed best to get on and do something. The DMBS has had its vents conduit and (rather unplanned at the outset)periscopes. This had the consequence of exposing two rectangular holes in the roof where they once stood - now plugged with 60 thou. plastic strip fixed with super glue to act as a joint filler. Another unplanned operation was the plugging of the erstwhile conduit knob holes on the DMBS. I had hoped to use them to locate the new lamp tops as on the DTC, where they are perfectly aligned, but they go very much out of alignment- except for the one over the innermost compartment (not shown). This has been mentioned on the SEG website: the fuse holder here is not found on 2 BIL DTCs. A quick slice and it was gone. It then occurred to me that it seemed rather wider than it should be. It should look like this one nearest the knife point. Oh dear, the one on the right is another wide-boy. The errant DTC outer motor bogie put up little resistance. One twist of the screw driver and it was gone - never to return on this unit. It will be going to the dummy motor coach of the yet to be built 4 SUB. Don't worry, I do know what I'm doing - honest! Colin Edited July 18, 2013 by Colin parks 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 19, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 19, 2013 Don't worry, I do know what I'm doing - honest! I'm glad you do Colin, you've lost me, I'm afraid all I shall do is wait until the end and then copy you, sorry for being a lazy plagiarist. What I can do is provide you with food for thought on the running gear!; I'm having fun converting mine to EM though, the trailer car is a doddle, drop in KM's sorted that, a bit more work in the power car though as the trailing bogie picks up current, so BB's replaced those, and BB's also on the power bogie with the drive cog swapped over. BUT,,, the brakes blocks, apart from breaking off from their mouldings, seem very undernourished compared to my stock of whitemetal 14mm brake shoes, can anyone confirm this, or were 2 BILs, (and the Hornby Brighton Belle as I have noticed), equipped by the SR with lightweight brake blocks? Lastly, can anyone point me in the direction of photo's/drawings of the bogies and their brake arrangement, yokes, pull rods etc. TIA Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 19, 2013 Author Share Posted July 19, 2013 I'm glad you do Colin, you've lost me, I'm afraid all I shall do is wait until the end and then copy you, sorry for being a lazy plagiarist. What I can do is provide you with food for thought on the running gear!; I'm having fun converting mine to EM though, the trailer car is a doddle, drop in KM's sorted that, a bit more work in the power car though as the trailing bogie picks up current, so BB's replaced those, and BB's also on the power bogie with the drive cog swapped over. BUT,,, the brakes blocks, apart from breaking off from their mouldings, seem very undernourished compared to my stock of whitemetal 14mm brake shoes, can anyone confirm this, or were 2 BILs, (and the Hornby Brighton Belle as I have noticed), equipped by the SR with lightweight brake blocks? Lastly, can anyone point me in the direction of photo's/drawings of the bogies and their brake arrangement, yokes, pull rods etc. TIA Mike. Hi Mike, Re. motor bogies and their brake blocks, I've no real information to add I'm afraid. The biggest change needed on the Hornby 2 BIL chassis is to install a trailing pick-up bogie under the DTC. The Hornby model has a motor bogie there - which is wrong. A trailing pick-up bogie had shallower side frames, tie bars between the W-irons and different brake rigging. (It did have the cranked guard irons as per the Hornby model though.) If you do decide not to change the bogie, it would at least be improved by having its brake rigging set inside the wheels, not outside like Hornby have done it. Re. drawings, all the drawings I have show the brake rigging on the trailing pick-up running outside the wheels, but it never was. I should imagine the rigging on all the unpowered bogies of a 2 BIL to be rigged as per the Maunsell/Lynes standard 8ft bogie's arrangement. The good news is that the Hornby motor bogie has, as far as can be seen, the correct linkage but should have straight, 'Central' type guard irons on its leading transom. The shoe beams are also on the list of things to be attended to. They are much too deep. It is very easy to prise them off, as I found with the 4 COR's Hornby motor bogies. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza. Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 (edited) After the cogitation over roof vents, it seemed best to get on and do something. The DMBS has had its vents conduit and (rather unplanned at the outset)periscopes. This had the consequence of exposing two rectangular holes in the roof where they once stood - now plugged with 60 thou. plastic strip fixed with super glue to act as a joint filler. IMG_6643.JPG Another unplanned operation was the plugging of the erstwhile conduit knob holes on the DMBS. I had hoped to use them to locate the new lamp tops as on the DTC, where they are perfectly aligned, but they go very much out of alignment- except for the one over the innermost compartment (not shown). IMG_6644.JPG This has been mentioned on the SEG website: the fuse holder here is not found on 2 BIL DTCs. A quick slice and it was gone. It then occurred to me that it seemed rather wider than it should be. IMG_6645.JPG It should look like this one nearest the knife point. Oh dear, the one on the right is another wide-boy. IMG_6647.JPG The errant DTC outer motor bogie put up little resistance. One twist of the screw driver and it was gone - never to return on this unit. It will be going to the dummy motor coach of the yet to be built 4 SUB. IMG_6646 (1024x768).jpg Don't worry, I do know what I'm doing - honest! Colin Hi Colin, Are you going to save that fuse holder that you correctly cut-off, and re-positioned it on to the compartment side of the DTC in line with the one on the corridor side of the Hornby 2BIL? Brian Golding's plan of the 2BIL, show both periscopes 5 mm forward of the Hornby ones. Bazza Edited July 20, 2013 by bazza. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 20, 2013 Author Share Posted July 20, 2013 Hi Colin, Are you going to save that fuse holder that you correctly cut-off, and re-positioned it on to the compartment side of the DTC in line with the one on the corridor side of the Hornby 2BIL? Brian Golding's plan of the 2BIL, show both periscopes 5 mm forward of the Hornby ones. Bazza Hi Bazza, So you've got the Brian Golding book have you?! The pictures are useful but the drawings are well known to be suspect and incorrect in respect of the 2 BIL if they show a fuse holder on the DTC's compartments side. I have come to grief with Mr Golding's book on two occasions, namely with the 2 HAL motor coach having wrongly spaced compartments on the motor coach and the 4 CIG's window positions. Never again! I have three sets of complete 2 BIL drawings by Nick Campling, Bob Phelps (in the Railway Modeller last year) and Mike King (whose drawings only arrived two days ago). All these agree with each other, though as bassettloko said, the roof vents are more evenly spaced over the compartments than drawn. (This last point sadly applies to the 4 CORs too, but my model will be left in glorious inexactittude for now!) All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 20, 2013 Author Share Posted July 20, 2013 The post has arrived and the dog didn't eat it - well, not quite! Southern Pride have come up with the lamp tops almost by return of post following my re-order using their new address. The tops that will be positioned in the two conduits near the roof centre-line will have their shoulders carefully turned down so they can be sunk deeper into the roof. The clearances are quite tight as these uppermost lighting conduits run almost under the points of the torpedo vents. If the vents are ever to be changed for correct-width ones, I will have to nudge conduit over by 0.5mm or so. I note that the other lamp tops on the 2 BIL roofs (the outer ones over compartments and the corridors) sat on angled bases to keep them level as the roof curved down. Might try and see if the holes can be drilled perpendicular and bed the blighters in with Liquid Poly. Colin 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 20, 2013 Author Share Posted July 20, 2013 (edited) Well the DTC has its lighting conduit temporarily pressed into place to test the fit around the vents (on the further run in this picture) and also determine to height of the supports under the conduit. I have opted for 0.31mm hard-drawn brass wire for Eileen's for the lighting conduit. This is an easy fit in the lamp top holes and should prevent any distortion of the wire in high temperatures! The train control conduit will be made of 0.4mm hard-drawn brass wire and the power line one from 0.5mm plastic rod. The view from the other side. The conduit is desperately close to the points of those vents, but then, that is how it was. Colin Edited July 20, 2013 by Colin parks 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) Work in progress on the DTC roof. The conduit was all made from 0.31mm brass wire apart from the power line which is made from 0.4mm brass wire. Note the upper run of lamp tops are sunk further into the roof than those of the corridor and the compartment side nearest the camera. This hasn't been too easy to do, but it is this aspect of the model which prompted the upgrade in the first place. Colin Edited July 21, 2013 by Colin parks 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 23, 2013 Author Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) It was all going so well until starting work on the DMBS lamp tops: that's strange I thought, the marking out must be wrong because the lamp is in a different position in relation to the to the toilet window. Now, what could be wrong? I lined up the two bodies, had a look, referred to the plans (all of them!) and.... Conclusion: the window on the DTC is out of position by 1.5mm, in effect shortening the innermost first class compartment. Both toilet windows should be the same distance from the inner end. I can't think of a way of solving this without major surgery, filling and a risk of damage to the surface detail of the DTC's side in the process. This is not meant to be a 'bashing thread', but to be honest, I am a bit annoyed. Colin Edited July 23, 2013 by Colin parks 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) DMBS roof conduit work in the wee small hours. This motor coach has quite a lot of roof spaghetti, as can be seen here: After the realisation of the toilet window fiasco, it became clear that the water tank filler caps differ in their positions on each coach roof. This one has been filled, but then again, it could be that the other one is wrong - will have to think about this. But anyway, the lighting conduit is now meandering across to the inner end as they did on all 'production' 2 BIL DMBS coaches (the original course of the moulded conduit spur can be seen running to the corridor lamp). The first ten pre-production BILs had a slightly different arrangement, but quite similar. Perhaps this view shows best how close the conduit runs to the roof vent points. It should also be said that this particular run was made up in four pieces as it would have been nigh on impossible to bend and fit one piece of wire. The lamps over the luggage compartment have now been placed in parallel and centred between the roof vents. The white rectangular pieces of plastic mark the original positions of the periscopes. It can be seen that the rear one would have fouled the conduit had it not been removed. Many thanks to Dave and Ceptic for their help with photos of 2 BIL roofs etc., for this part of the work could not have been done without them. Colin Edited July 24, 2013 by Colin parks 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 24, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2013 Have you soldered the joints between the wires that drop down to the corridor lamps? It is amazing the difference to the look of these bodies just having the roof more detailed, it seems to draw the eye from those heavy screw heads. Yet again some impressive work. Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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