ex-LNER O4/5 in EM

[Clem]

This is my first attempt at writing up a little project of modifying a RTR locomotive - I'm more than happy to take constructive criticism, advice etc. - equally, I'm happy to answer questions. My motto is 'Failure is on the road to success' so I try not to worry about taking a chance on things. I've had a few failures - usually due to trying to take short cuts or by rushing into action when further thought would have been the wiser counsel. If it happens, I try to take it on the chin and use the experience to improve. I have modelled in P4, EM and OO and found EM to be the perfect compromise for me. But I always feel that it's the atmosphere that a model creates is the most important thing.

 

Well,  I finally got around to making a start on one of the 2 O4/5 bodies purchased last year from Bill Bedford (Moussa Models). First of all for anyone who is not aware, these are 3D 'prints' designed to fit on to the Bachman O4 running plate. The finish on these bodies are not of the same standard as brass or even of a half decent whitemetal kit. However, I have to say that he has certainly captured the atmosphere of the O4/5 prototype and I'm hoping that with a determined effort of rubbing down and some filling, a good model can be produced. I would emphasise that Bill has acknowledged the present drawbacks of the 3D printing and I believe he is at present considering other solutions including using a 3D print as a basis for resin cast bodies.

 

I have already seen a completed O4/5 built in OO which runs on the exhibition layout 'Gamston Bank' which I saw at the East Midlands Model Railway Exhibition this year. It had been finished superbly well. I briefly discussed it with the builder (really sorry - it's an age thing - but I can't remember his name) and I can only hope that I can emulate that standard.

 

The two engines I'm going to build are 63851 and 63745, both of which were at Colwick in 1955 and therefore tie in with my plans (part-built now) to model a fictitious station on the GN Derbyshire extension - a curious mixture of Kimberley and West Hallam! 63851 is the first one of the O4/5s to be attempted as Bill Bedford has unwittingly supplied me with the other without the motor cut away required to fit to the Bachmann model. But that is absolutely fine as I will come on to later.

 

So, first of all, I checked that the body fitted OK on the Bachmann footplate. I found that the body sat a little high and that the cab sides weren't quite flush to the running plate. I found that some filing of the body underneath the cab (but not the cab sides!) and a little on the smokebox saddle brought the cab sides flush and corrected the height above track level. The hole at the front in the Bachmann footplate does not line up with the body smokebox saddle so a new hole had to be drilled in the footplate with a clearance for a 12BA screw and a corresponding hole under the smokebox saddle was tapped to 12 BA. The fastening positions at the back are correct -  correctly placed holes of the correct size.

 

Once those basics where sorted,  I spent a considerable time rubbing down the body of 63851 and it is now certainly better than it was. I gave it a first coat of grey primer to help make the flaws more visible and it certainly did. So, using sandpaper of 360, 600 and 1200 grits I have attempted to give the model a reasonably smooth finish. There were one or two areas that were particularly rough - for instance the cab front. For this I have used filler. When I felt that the boiler was sufficiently smooth I added handrails, front lamp bracket, number plate, shed plate, and smokebox door handle (eileen's emporium) and then rivet detail. (Archers - which I have recently discovered). There will still be some rubbing down in areas away from handrails and rivets. I've fabricated a new reversing rod (of the correct length as the Bachmann one is short) and this will be fitted after spraying black but before weathering. This is were I am up to now. (See photos) - ah photos... aren't they brilliant for pointing out faults!  I've noticed a couple of gaps in the rivetting. These will be sorted.

 

The chassis I'd already converted to EM as a bit of a throw away lose-nothing-use-original-wheels effort some while ago. Since then I've converted another one using Alan Gibson wheels and this runs better as much as anything due to the longer axles and finer wheels, although the Bachmann wheels do run on my C&L chaired track. In an interim period I will run 63851 on this first converted chassis. I have another O4 conversion to do (O4/3) and a Hornby O1 in the coming few months. But I will eventually put Colin's (Alan Gibson) wheels on 63851.

 

I mentioned 63745 - the chassis for this I intend to scratch build at a later date. I don't know what other people have found but I find that the Bachmann O4 chassis is not as powerful as I would like. I've got an old K's O4/3 with a sprung EM chassis and where that will pull 50+ wagons around my 40" minimum curves, the Bachmann O4 struggles with 30+. So building another chassis for 63745 will allow another comparison to be made. Another thing I should also mention is that Bill Bedford was very helpful. When I mentioned that 63745 was a bit of a one off and had a GC dome even though it had a Gresley boiler, he designed it into the second body.

 

Finally, I should also mention the help and advice from Pete Hill for my other (O4/1) conversion using the Alan Gibson wheels. He has produced a growing set of EM conversion manuals for ready to run models on the Alan Gibson web site.

 

So there we are.

 

Clem

[pete55]

Hi Clem,

think the guy you are thinking of with the Gamston Bank example is Graeme King...

Looks very nice, certainly seem to have sorted the stepped finish on the boiler judging by the sheen in the pics.

Look forward to seeing it painted and weathered.....along with some new wheels!

 

Pete

[Clem]

Hi Clem,

think the guy you are thinking of with the Gamston Bank example is Graeme King...

Looks very nice, certainly seem to have sorted the stepped finish on the boiler judging by the sheen in the pics.

Look forward to seeing it painted and weathered.....along with some new wheels!

 

Pete

 

Cheers Pete... Yes Graham King! Thanks for that. Yes, I did that chassis previously and it suffers a little with the wheels not 100% square due to the minimal length of axle remaining in the wheel! :-) But it does run so I'm using it until more funds are released for another of Colin's Conversion sets. How are your O4s for pulling power?

[micklner]

He has pictures of his on here

 

http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2443 

 

it will be a few pages back.

 

Yours looks better for replacing the handrails etc

[Horsetan]

Certainly looks convincing from this distance.

 

Has anyone ever tried correcting the Bachmann footplate, i.e. the over-long widened section over the cylinders?

[Clem]

He has pictures of his on here

 

http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2443 

 

it will be a few pages back.

 

Yours looks better for replacing the handrails etc

Hi Mick, Must admit, I looked but couldn't find it. Found an O4/8 and O1 which both looked very nice, though! Definitely like his work!

 

Clem

[Clem]

Certainly looks convincing from this distance.

 

Has anyone ever tried correcting the Bachmann footplate, i.e. the over-long widened section over the cylinders?

Certainly thought about it. I've got a mini milling machine and the thought did cross my mind, (mad devilish look in my eyes!) using that to simply mill a line from the rear to the point where it tapers out and finish it with some fettling and a infill of valence. I think the question has to be.. 'would the modification be more noticeable than the original error?' I've already corrected the wheelbase error at the front by pulling the pony truck in a couple of mm. But I think my main worry at the moment is pulling power of the Bachmann chassis. I need my O4s to be able to handle 35 wagons around my curves and although my old Ks one seems to do this effortlessly, I get a lot of slipping from the Bachmann chassis over 25 wagons round my hidden curves. I think it's due to the fact that the K's O4 has  a sprung chassis with adhesion from every driving wheel. I have thought about drilling a vertical hole in the middle of the leading 2 axles of the Bachmann chassis and putting a coil spring of an appropriate strength in each in an attempt to get a little more adhesion, but I don't know how effective that would be, if at all.

[billbedford]

Certainly looks convincing from this distance.

 

Has anyone ever tried correcting the Bachmann footplate, i.e. the over-long widened section over the cylinders?

 You may not need to. Bachmann corrected this on the GW version of the ROD. So if you want to use one of the replacement boilers start with a green loco.

[Mallard60022]

Clem, was the chassis to EM conversion, using original stuff, straightforward?

For a moment earlier I thought you were going to say you were modelling Colwick and environs - that would be a project and a half, eh?

Just checked the Pete Hill conversion downloads on the Gibbo site. They are excellent, however I can see a wheel press having to be purchased!

Phil @ 36E

[micklner]

Hi Mick, Must admit, I looked but couldn't find it. Found an O4/8 and O1 which both looked very nice, though! Definitely like his work!

 

Clem

 

 

http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6919&hilit=bill+bedford+o4%2F5

 

there is a scratch/conversion O4/8 on my thread and a O4/3 as well about a year ago as well

[Guest oldlugger]

Nice work Clem. The prototype was certainly a handsome machine with its chunky boiler.

 

Cheers

Simon

[Clem]

 You may not need to. Bachmann corrected this on the GW version of the ROD. So if you want to use one of the replacement boilers start with a green loco.

 

 

Clem, was the chassis to EM conversion, using original stuff, straightforward?

For a moment earlier I thought you were going to say you were modelling Colwick and environs - that would be a project and a half, eh?

Just checked the Pete Hill conversion downloads on the Gibbo site. They are excellent, however I can see a wheel press having to be purchased!

Phil @ 36E

 

 

http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6919&hilit=bill+bedford+o4%2F5

 

there is a scratch/conversion O4/8 on my thread and a O4/3 as well about a year ago as well

 

 

Nice work Clem. The prototype was certainly a handsome machine with its chunky boiler.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

Hi Bill, Thanks for that information - it's a bit tricky that as in the back of my mind, I have visions of building more footplates and chassis for the discarded bodies - but they have to be ex-LNER. But that's just my 25% scottish thift blood coming out :-) - Incidently Bill is there any developments on your other prospective O4 replacements? Are you going down the resin casting route with them?

 

Hi Phil, 

It is straight forward using the original wheels as long as you've got a GW models wheel-puller - but with hindsight I'd go with Alan Gibson conversion. Using the original wheels has the advantage of costing very little but you have to be very careful to measure equal amounts of wheel pulling (approximately 1mm) each side. It is difficult to keep the wheels square to the axles as there is only a minimal amount of axle left in the drivers. I very carefully applied some araldite to reinforce the new positions of the wheels. Also, the connecting rods have to have their angle for clearance changed (bent) and one broke when I was doing that and although I fixed it it was time consuming hassle. Also, as the wheels don't come off, you can't put spacing washers on and you have to have zero sideplay for the front axle. I used plasticard the same shape as the Bachmann axle holes to space the wheels. So by the time you've finished messing around with all this, you might as well use Colin's conversion set (Alan Gibson). It's definitely  well worth getting a GW models wheel press. However, I don't know whether it's suitable for 3mm axles as sold. I bought mine a long time ago and have turned a couple of 3mm axle inserts for it myself. I could be that he provides those as an extra these days with the amount of 3mm axles there are around. But, as long as it is set up correctly, it is an indispensable piece of kit for anyone using the finer wheels of Alan Gibson, Ultrascale or Sharman makes where quartering is required. Almost as important as quartering is the assurance that the wheels are going to go on square. Using Colin's wheels you need to reduce the thickness of the connecting rod at the big end (thanks Pete) instead of bending it. So, certainly, in future I'll be using the conversion kits. One last thing to mention is that Colin does not cut his 3mm axles to length like he does with the eight inch ones. So they do have to be reduced to 21.4mm in length. Talking of Colwick, I went round the shed many times as boy (extemely difficult shed to get round but I had my own sneaky way in through the bike sheds!). Also I can vaguely remember when I was about 5 or 6 being on a seaside excursion from Kimberley which took the Nottingham back line and stopped (I think to change crews) right in the middle of Colwick yards with an amazing amount of activity going on all around!

 

Hi Mick,

It was your thread on the O4/8, that made me aware of Archer's surface detail transfers, so a massive thanks for that. I was well impressed with your O4/8 and will be looking to do one in the future. The variety I really like though is the O4/7 with the Gresley boiler and large GC type smokebox. My own personal favourite around Nottingham was 63699 although 63770 became the well known one in later years.

 

Hi Simon, 

thanks for the remarks.I have to agree with your sentiments. .. a lovely prototype - shame they didn't modify a few more.  But then I like all the varieties of the tinies.

 

Clem

[Mallard60022]

Thanks for that informative response Clem. Got to take the steam loco conversion 'plunge' at some time as I only have an EM layout!!

A few weeks back I went to see if anything of Colwick was left! Hardly anything of course.

That started a whole new conversation on here and a wonderful journey through Dave F's late dad's pic collection that is amazing.

P

[Clem]

Thanks for that informative response Clem. Got to take the steam loco conversion 'plunge' at some time as I only have an EM layout!!

A few weeks back I went to see if anything of Colwick was left! Hardly anything of course.

That started a whole new conversation on here and a wonderful journey through Dave F's late dad's pic collection that is amazing.

P

Yes, I've only recently come across Dave F's collection of his dad's photos - an absolute goldmine of nostalgia and information. Another project I've been doing recently is a J6 64202 (Nucast) - just need to add transfers and weather. I painted it with Halford's satin black purchased at Halfords store on the Colwick Industrial Estate no more than a hundred yards from where the Colwick scrap line used to be and where 64202 ended its days before its last trip to Doncaster in 1958. However, I've realised that Halford's Satin Black is a poor medium for Methfix transfers so I need to get round to giving it a clear varnish to take the transfers!

 

As for taking the conversion plunge, I would strongly encourage you to do it without delay but be prepared to experience a couple of set backs on the way and don't be dismayed if you do - you may avoid them completely with Pete Hill's manuals but I nearly always seem to get something unexpected - and usually of my own making it has to be said. But I've never failed to solve it. And things do get easier, the more you do and the quicker you make a start, the sooner you'll pick up the experience to deal with any problems. Furthermore, there is a lot of help around on this forum and if you get stuck, there is usually plenty of helpful advice. Compared to someone like Pete Hill who has converted many, many RTR locos, I am still pretty inexperienced but I feel I have learnt pretty quickly.  

 

If I was only allowed to give one tip on RTR conversions, I'd say make sure there is minimal (<0.3mm in total) sideplay on the front axle where outside cylinders are in play and that is simple a case of simple arithmetic - spacing washers on each side with a width of 16.5 - width of RTR chassis at the hornblock (or axlehole) divided by 2 and just give yourself an extra 0.1mm each side to ensure free running.

 

But as I'm sure you know, there can be many things that can stop perfect running and if you're not satisfied it's just a case of trying to think out what the likely problem is and try to be patient about it. I've had all sorts of problem from bent slide bars in the motion giving uneven running to the motor magnet surreptitiously picking up a small screw and jamming in the motor, when initially I thought the rods were snagging somewhere. I suppose we all have occasional moments when we could be like OO modellers and take out one of the superb ready to run models out of the box and plonk it on the track and run it with no hassle. But when you look at EM and P4 locos from front or front 3/4 the truer looking track gauge makes it all worthwhile. - Works for me anyway!

 

Anyway, go for it! Good Luck

Clem,

[billbedford]

 

Hi Bill, Thanks for that information - it's a bit tricky that as in the back of my mind, I have visions of building more footplates and chassis for the discarded bodies - but they have to be ex-LNER. But that's just my 25% scottish thift blood coming out :-) - Incidently Bill is there any developments on your other prospective O4 replacements? Are you going down the resin casting route with them?

 

 

Yep, there are just too many problems with this 3D printed stuff.

[Horsetan]

Yep, there are just too many problems with this 3D printed stuff.

 

Resin-centred wheelsets as well?

[bike2steam]

My own 'tribute' to Colwick, which I managed to 'bunk' a few times, and yes, it was a sod of a place to get round. A 'Little Engines' kit, geared down to a maximum scale speed of 25 mph, with a Mashima 1426 motor, and copes with 60 standard mineral wagons, but struggles slightly round my 3 foot radius curves. Oh yes the wires to the tender pick-ups are now hidden  .

[billbedford]

Yep, Can you try an experiment for me? Just remount your Q1 wheels on to and tell me if there is any difference.

[Clem]

My own 'tribute' to Colwick, which I managed to 'bunk' a few times, and yes, it was a sod of a place to get round. A 'Little Engines' kit, geared down to a maximum scale speed of 25 mph, with a Mashima 1426 motor, and copes with 60 standard mineral wagons, but struggles slightly round my 3 foot radius curves. Oh yes the wires to the tender pick-ups are now hidden  .

Hi Paul,

63644... Remember it well, along with 63674, 63675 63707, 63770, 63754, 63816, 63819, 63859 and 63873. It seemed like those final few years at Colwick would never end... Then suddenly they were gone! You've really got the look of an O4/8 there. I've got a Little Engines kit in to build one but the to do list is ever lengthening!

 

When I was younger I spent some sunny afternoons with my brother at Awsworth Junction in the years around 1955-1960. There were a different set of favourites in those earlier years including 63657 and 63699 and of course the J6s and A5s, not to mention the K2s and K3s on both fitted and unfitted freights. Up until then the O4s seemed to outnumber the WDs  but then the WDs overtook them a little. But in my experience the O4s always seemed to handle the iron ore trains to Stanton although I know the WDs did appear on them in later years.

Incidently, I've just had a grumpy old man rant at Model Rail editor for implying that Colwick was a Great Central shed in a review on the latest Bachmann WD in the latest issue. They speak with such authority these people and then print garbage. It only takes 2 minutes to check! And the number of times photo captions of an O4 variant give the incorrect type. I've even got a book which repeatedly talks about O1/7s!  You've got to laugh!

 

Back to the O4/5.... I've got a bit of an enforced gap for the next few days before I can make further progress. My daughter is graduating at Liverpool Uni on Friday and all work is off until after then as too many mundane chores need to be done in the meantime. Still I appreciate it more when I get back to it...

[bike2steam]

Did you ever visit the signal box near the level crossing in Victoria Road, opposite the front end of the running shed? One of the signalmen there was a fellow enthusiast, and enjoyed showing off his photos of his travels around the country to any passing spotter/enthusiast that came near his box, but I am talking 1962 - 65.

[Clem]

Did you ever visit the signal box near the level crossing in Victoria Road, opposite the front end of the running shed? One of the signalmen there was a fellow enthusiast, and enjoyed showing off his photos of his travels around the country to any passing spotter/enthusiast that came near his box, but I am talking 1962 - 65.

No - I missed out on that one, but I did get a photo of that box before it was  demolished:

 

Also a photo of O4/3 63657 coming up from the Pinxton branch taken on my brother's very early and seemingly impossible to operate brownie box camera in 1957. Unfortunately, we ( I say we  but I was only 6) never got the hang of it and didn't persevere after this roll of film. (Oh for a better camera then!)

 

I remember about 1960 or 1961 - could haveeven been 1962,  Colwick suddenly having visitors from the ECML - I think for repairs or wheel turning? - Have you any memories of that? I remember seeing 60007 and 60015 and an A3 and a V2 all at the back of the shed near the foreman's office on separate occasions. I even took a photo of 60015 with a flash. Unfortunately this and many of my photos and railway records were burnt by my dad about 1970 after I'd left home and he decided to clear out the loft :-( - C'est la vie!

 

I've also got very vivid memories of the K2s on the Colwick scrapline. The K2 is another class that's on my list to do in EM. Definitely one of the most aesthetically pleasing steam locomotive designs of all time in my eyes. I've done a Nucast one but haven't done the EM chassis for it yet. 

 

Clem

[Clem]

A quick update - O4/5 now in black waiting for transfers (methfix), reversing rod and weathering. Had some problems with the final coat primer and also to a lesser extent the final coat (humbrol 85) - I think it was due to the hot weather heating up the area where I spray and part-drying the paint before it made contact. It looks slightly patchy in one or two places but the finish is good enough for transfers and weathering.

[micklner]

Very nice , much easier with Halfords Grey Primer and Satin or Matt Black to finish  IMHO

[Clem]

Very nice , much easier with Halfords Grey Primer and Satin or Matt Black to finish  IMHO

Hi Mick, I agree it is much easier ....    until you try to apply methfix transfers! They do not adhere to Halfords satin black. Anyway here's another bit of progress....

 

Clem

[great central]

Hope you don't mind but all this talk of Colwick and I've dug out a few photos of locos I've built as I remember them.

 

 63770 picture taken, in Deepcar's fiddle yard, at Barnsley show a few years ago. Little engines kit.

 

 

90002, typically filthy Colwick ozzie, as we knew them. DJH kit built before the Bachmann one came out.

 

 

61766, K2 from a NuCast kit, I have two of these, one of which was actually a Boston engine (can't remeber which one though). I also picked up another kit at Derby show last year £35 including wheels!