10 locomotives to tell the story of the railways of Britain

[clecklewyke]

In the event the Stephenson long boiler design was something of a dead end and according to Ahrons the last was built in 1975, 

<pedant mode on>

 

Oh dear, the 9 is very close to the 8 on the keyboard. <pedant mode off>

 

 

Whatever, The Stationmaster is right, the list has to include an 0-6-0 tender loco. These were made in vast numbers over a long period of time, could handle just about any job on the railway and are the archetypical British steam loco. My preference would be for an ex-NER J27 or LNER J39, but that's just my prejudice, coming from NER country.

 

Ian

[bike2steam]

6. GWR Castle 4073 Caerphilly Castle - A top suggestion by Gruffalo for its influence on future designs on other railways whilst being the first member of one of the GWR's flagship classes. A GWR 4-6-0 is a must for the collection and I would struggle to choose between them myself - a testament to Swindon's standardisation.

Although an excellent choice it was only a later development of the British 4-6-0 'family', perhaps it's time for a 'new-build' of the daddy of them all;- GWR no.100 'William Dean'.

[Poggy1165]

I think most of these lists do not do enough for goods engines. Railways were built essentially for goods and mineral traffic, their bread and butter. Passenger traffic was the jam on the bread, and high speed passenger the strawberry in the strawberry preserve.

 

Personally I would want something like a LNWR coal engine in there. A bog-standard, simple design that did the same job for year after year after year. These sort of engines did more for railway dividends than all the flashy express locos put together.

[The Stationmaster]

<pedant mode on>

 

Oh dear, the 9 is very close to the 8 on the keyboard. <pedant mode off>

 

 

Whatever, The Stationmaster is right, the list has to include an 0-6-0 tender loco. These were made in vast numbers over a long period of time, could handle just about any job on the railway and are the archetypical British steam loco. My preference would be for an ex-NER J27 or LNER J39, but that's just my prejudice, coming from NER country.

 

Ian

Thankee kind occasional pedant, tryping finger duly 'instructed for the future'   

[buffalo]

I'm open to correction but I'm fairly sure that Gooch's 'Hercules' class pre-dated the Stephenson 'long boiler' concept (although possibly not the patent) and it certainly pre-dated the long boiler

0-6-0 by some years.  As far as I can trace the Gooch design, haycock firebox and outside frames apart, was the first 'modern' design of 0-6-0 embodying Stephensonian principles and the first on a major mainline railway...

I think it is the other way round, Mike. Stephenson's first long boiler was, I believe, produced in 1841 on a 2-2-2. The patent was granted in 1842 (if a quick search is correct). Hercules, the first of a batch of four that were to become the start of the Fury class, was produced by Nasmyth, Gaskell & Co in 1842. According to Holcroft, the boilers on these were of similar dimensions to those of the Firefly class which were first built in 1840.

 

Perhaps we read too much into differences over the gauge question and fail to appreciate how closely interwoven the relationship between Stephenson and Gooch were in the development of locos. For example, whilst North Star is seen as the start of a long and successful series of Broad Gauge developments, it is often forgotten that it was designed and built by Stephenson. Gooch's contributions here were to pursuade the GWR board to buy North Star and to order further members of the class from Stephenson. While Stephenson's were supplying these locos, Gooch then adapted the design in several ways to form the Firefly class. Perhaps, significantly in the overall history of development, these can be seen as the origins of GWR standardisation. Gooch produced a single design for a class of over sixty locos built by seven different companies but all with interchangeable parts.

 

Returning to Hercules and the Fury class, Premier was the first of a series improved versions of these and was the first loco to be built at Swindon in 1846, and was the start of a long line of GWR 0-6-0s. Some sources suggest that Premier's boiler was supplied by Stephenson's.

 

Nick

[Glorious NSE]

One to represent the beginnings of the railways (Rocket or the like)

One to represent the broad gauge style (BG Lord of the Isles is a good one)

One to represent the workaday railway (pick an 0-6-0 tender loco)

One to represent the race to the north (Mallard)

One to represent the station pilots etc (GWR pannier)

One to represent the commuter railways (SR electric unit)

One to represent the early diesels (Deltic?)

One to represent the little trains (a narrow gauge steamer)

One to represent dieselized passenger travel (HST)

One to represent the current railway (Class 66 or a modern DMU/EMU)

 

I really like Adrian's approach here, if the point is to tell the story, then you need an example to symbolise that part of the story...I agree with some of his choices too, but i'll give a bit of reasoning...overall I wanted to not favour one region as much as possible...

 

1. Rocket. Lots of significant developments in a short time, but Rocket is the well known name, you can expand from there to tell more about what came before...

2. Broad gauge single. Lots of stories to tell, early entrepreneurism, Brunel and his grand designs, (integrated transport!) Gauge wars, pre-grouping's colour and style, and the 'Single' shows an easy development from the Rocket...

3. LMS 4F or 3F, example of a small but competent goods engine, fairly typical of any railway in the country, for a huge timespan. The story to tell is that beneath any glamour similar machines toiled away for decades doing what the railway was originally intended for, moving freight, in what today we'd be calling a country-wide logistics network...

4. Narrow gauge - It needs to be included, my take would be a double fairlie just because they are so fascinating, but countering that is they are less typical...

5. Southern 4-SUB - the rise of the commuter and their rise to importance on the network, electric traction, and it's importance 

6. SR 'Terrier' tank. Stories - Shunting, Yards, Station pilots and perhaps more importantly Branch lines to everywhere, cover Beeching's negative side

7. A4 'Mallard' - The glamorous express trains, streamlining, speed...

8. Class 20 - Modernisation plan (and some of it's follies, follow it with Beeching's more positive push towards faster, more sustainable freight!)

9. HST - Not only marking the turning point in rail's fortunes, it's also arguably the pinnacle of design for the purely British industry - add the rise of the business led railway...

10. Class 66 - Globalisation (a container flat would be a great addition...), particularly Britain's traditional industry becoming part of a global one - Privatisation, open access freight...  

 

I'm not sure you can do everything - I'd have preferred a different example instead of the 66 just because it's not especially impressive an engineering example, a Desiro would have covered globalisation with the industry, but duplicates with other parts, a 66 also manages to be region neutral...a better bet in the future might be a UK loading gauge Bombardier TRAXX or similar, except the UK isn't quite there yet...

[Claude_Dreyfus]

 

 

I'm not sure you can do everything - I'd have preferred a different example instead of the 66 just because it's not especially impressive an engineering example, a Desiro would have covered globalisation with the industry, but duplicates with other parts, a 66 also manages to be region neutral...a better bet in the future might be a UK loading gauge Bombardier TRAXX or similar, except the UK isn't quite there yet...

 

Perhaps the 59 could be a better option. It was the first 'private' main line locomotive class purchase to enter service on BR tracks and paved the way for the class 66, effectively spelling the end for British built locomotives. It could be argued that this class is a perfect example of tangible open access on Britians railways (although perhaps a wagon may be a better and more widely spread example) and eventual priviatisation...

[Glorious NSE]

That's a good thought, worth pondering!

[Fenman]

...

5. Southern 4-SUB - the rise of the commuter and their rise to importance on the network, electric traction, and it's importance 

...

 

 

I'm not sure you can do everything ...

 

Intriguing debate, though I'm not surprised that steam is (over-?)dominating most lists, and I do accept that 10 choices just isn't enough. But, even so, the idea that a 4-SUB can represent all electric traction strikes me as pushing it a bit - we wouldn't accept a Class 101 as representing all diesel traction, would we?

 

After southern commuter electrification, pioneering work on the NER was more about freight than passenger traffic (though of course that was planned to follow). Woodside was another fascinating what-might-have-been, but if I couldn't have anything else I'd be arguing hard for the inclusion of one the mainline AC locos.

 

But I also have a huge soft sport for the NRM's NER ES1s.

 

Paul

[Glorious NSE]

Ref the 59, i'm a little torn. It does have a decent claim to heralding the first post-privatisation open access operation (National Power) - but it was the 66's 'off-the-peg' nature that enabled there to be multiple FOCs competing on some kind of level basis...

 

An AC electric is a good one, as I said you can't do everything, looking at the 'stories' then you could substitute an AL1 in place of the class 20 without losing the narratives of the modernisation plan, and Beeching promoting investing in core routes and block trains, but you'd maybe play down early dieselisation...(maybe that's a good thing from the point of view of some of the results of it!)

 

Even now (let alone when the AL1 was introduced) most of the network is not electrified, although that balance is set to shift, so I think you could defend an imbalance of diesels versus electrics.

[jcm@gwr]

<pedant mode on>

You shouldn't include any MU's

"10 locomotives" was the original question!

(HST is ok, as it is still classed as loco hauled.)

<pedant mode off>

 

I was going to include GWR 28xx as, not only

does it pre-date Stanier's 8 coupled, it also was

the holder of the heaviest freight train record.

(only beaten by a 9F in preservation relatively

recently, on a Yeoman ore train.)

 

Jeff

[pH]

Although an excellent choice it was only a later development of the British 4-6-0 'family', perhaps it's time for a 'new-build' of the daddy of them all;- GWR no.100 'William Dean'.

 

Pardon? I thought this was the first British 4-6-0 - no? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Railway_Jones_Goods_Class

 

I would suggest one of the early Scottish standard gauge 4-4-0s - Wheatley NBR 224, an NBR 'Abbotsford' or a G&SWR James Stirling '6' class. Or perhaps a CR 'Dunalastair'  not an early one, but a significant step forward.

[bike2steam]

Pardon? I thought this was the first British 4-6-0 - no? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Railway_Jones_Goods_Class

 

I would suggest one of the early Scottish standard gauge 4-4-0s - Wheatley NBR 224, an NBR 'Abbotsford' or a G&SWR James Stirling '6' class. Or perhaps a CR 'Dunalastair'  not an early one, but a significant step forward.

Yes, the 'Jones Goods' was the FIRST one, never said 100 was the FIRST one, but the one that the more successful line was developed from - sorry.

[jamie92208]

Having had a quck skim through this topic which is fascinating here is my offerribg, purely personal.

 

1.   Salamanca.    (Blenkinsop's loco)

2.   Rocket

3.   A Kirtley 2-4-0  (A mid 19th C passenger loco)

4.  A Midland 3F   (The classic indesructble 0-6-0)

5.  A GWR 2-8-0  (28XX I think.   Heavy freight early 20th C)

6.  A Black 5   (Classic Mixed Traffic)

7  A Duchess

8   A 9F  (The best BRStandard)

9.  An HST Power car.  (Terry Miller'smagnum opus.)

10. A Class 37   Reliable EE traction.

 

I know I'm heavily Midland LMS influenced but thats my list.

 

Jamie

[Glorious NSE]

<pedant mode on>

You shouldn't include any MU's

"10 locomotives" was the original question!

(HST is ok, as it is still classed as loco hauled.)

<pedant mode off>

 

Okay, but if the point is to tell the story of the railways in Britain, then writing off increasingly large chunks of it for no real good reason beyond 'because' is not ideal...i'm sticking with what I wrote.

 

(Should I admit that if it were 20, i'd be including the 142...?)

[trisonic]

Everyone's pushing their own agenda, Martyn!

 

I can't believe that I'm the only one supporting the J15 0-6-0? Marvelous engine but the GER is the least written about "major" company in any of the magazines nowadays....shame.

 

Best, Pete.

[Glorious NSE]

Lots of very credible candidates though Pete, trouble is unless you ignore big chunks of history you're stuck with limited 'spaces' for mainstream British steam, i'd ended up with just 3!, and having got an A4 in there a J15 means you've an arguable regional bias... 

 

10 is very challenging!

[pH]

Yes, the 'Jones Goods' was the FIRST one, never said 100 was the FIRST one, but the one that the more successful line was developed from - sorry.

 

My apologies, too. I took 'the daddy of them all' to mean 'the first one, from which all others developed'. 

 

Trisonic - the problem with selecting an 0-6-0 (which would have to be included), as pointed out, is that there are so many candidates, but most are geographically limited. If you were to include widespread distribution as a criterion, then you'd probably have to pick the Midland/LMS 4F - seen from Aberdeen to Bournemouth and Fort William to Southend.

[trisonic]

My apologies, too. I took 'the daddy of them all' to mean 'the first one, from which all others developed'. 

 

Trisonic - the problem with selecting an 0-6-0 (which would have to be included), as pointed out, is that there are so many candidates, but most are geographically limited. If you were to include widespread distribution as a criterion, then you'd probably have to pick the Midland/LMS 4F - seen from Aberdeen to Bournemouth and Fort William to Southend.

 

That J15 that was built in 9 hours 45 minutes (this is still a record for a build btw) spent the first 36,000 miles in revenue service running coal trains from Peterborough to London. Prolific; I think over 600 were built in various forms - when the LNER was formed it represented the biggest single class of locomotive...

 

Not bad.

 

Best, Pete.

[newbryford]

The general consensus is that a 0-6-0 tender locomotive has to be included. I concur with this.

There also have been suggestions that either the genesis or final design has to be a reason for inclusion in the list.

 

I'm always one for progress and if there's ever a design that represents the pinnacle of evolution of the six-coupled, then it has to be Bulleid's Q1 ( a true example of the Marmite conundrum!)

 

Cheers,

Mick

[clecklewyke]

The general consensus is that a 0-6-0 tender locomotive has to be included. I concur with this.

There also have been suggestions that either the genesis or final design has to be a reason for inclusion in the list.

 

I'm always one for progress and if there's ever a design that represents the pinnacle of evolution of the six-coupled, then it has to be Bulleid's Q1 ( a true example of the Marmite conundrum!)

 

Cheers,

Mick

Hmm. The most ubiquitous 0-6-0 or the best?

 

Well the Fowler 4F might have been the former but definitely not the latter.

 

Maybe the Q1 was the most developed 0-6-0?

 

(I like Marmite!).

 

Ian

[Glorious NSE]

I'd also rate the Q1 as probably the 'best' - but 'typical' might be a better characteristic than 'best' (or even best known) for this part of the story.

[Fenman]

I'd also rate the Q1 as probably the 'best' - but 'typical' might be a better characteristic than 'best' (or even best known) for this part of the story.

 

I think that's a really interesting question - for the whole list. Should our museum favour things which were pioneering, or things which were the most "representative", or things which were the ultimate development? To take a diesel example, should it be an LMS 10000; a Class 08, 31 or 47; or an HST power car? If you try to represent all three types, of course, the limit of 10 is completely impossible.

 

But I'm still perplexed that people can happily produce a list of 10 representative locos without featuring a single electric example.

 

Paul

[newbryford]

I think that's a really interesting question - for the whole list. Should our museum favour things which were pioneering, or things which were the most "representative", or things which were the ultimate development? To take a diesel example, should it be an LMS 10000; a Class 08, 31 or 47; or an HST power car? If you try to represent all three types, of course, the limit of 10 is completely impossible.

 

But I'm still perplexed that people can happily produce a list of 10 representative locos without featuring a single electric example.

 

Paul

 

10000/08/31/47/HST are diesel-electric - does that count?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

My 10 Locos.

 

I have tried to provide a balance of different types and machines to tell the important aspects of the British Railway Story. I make no apology for including 3 GWR machines. This isn't because I am a GWR fan but because of their significance in the development of the British railway story. I have also attempted to represent all the regions of Britain and the three main motive power sources in the selection. As a preservationist, I thought it might be fun for me at least to just deal with machines that still exist and in theory you could hold this exhibition...

 

1 Rocket - this is a must as it was the first time that all the really good ideas in steam locomotive design were brought together in one machine. She, despite being very much a prototype machine that was quickly superseded, set the basic ideas out as they would remain until 1960...

 

2 No. 2516 - the Dean Goods is here as it covers 3 very important aspects of railway practice and history for in one machine. The 0-6-0 design was the goods machine for the majority of the steam age. Secondly it represents the wartime service of the railways. An aspect often forgotten but so important to the nation's continued freedom. The other plus in using No. 2516 would be that it was at the other end of the 19th century from Rocket and shows the development perfectly.

 

3 No. 2807 - as the earliest survivor of one of the most successful heavy freight locomotives, she deserves a place. Also, she is a representative of Churchward's standardisation program. This means she is not only a prime example of that most ubiquitous heavy freight type - the 2-8-0 - she also represents one of the greatest locomotive engineers that this country ever produced. His policies of the very early 20th century ran the GWR from then until the end of steam there in 1964. Not bad going at all and as a capital investment in a business a very wise one indeed.

 

4 No. 4079 Pendennis Castle - Ok, I KNOW that I am vastly biased here but I do include it above No. 4073 as although Caerphilly Castle was the prototype, it was Pendennis Castle that proved the superiority of the design and indeed showed people the way forward. She has attained a semi mythical status in British preservation since due in no small part to her flying the flag for British engineering in Australia for 20 odd years too. That is why I believe that she should be the Castle Class representative.

 

5 The 5BEL - Three reasons for including this one - firstly it is the Southern representative. A very forward looking railway in many respects and this shows this to a great extent. Secondly, although it isn't exactly suburban passenger transport in the strictest sense, it does represent the electric trains that made their commuter service very efficient. Finally it is probably the most famous and beloved electric train this country has ever produced so it has a place in the Castle Museum.

 

6 No. 5000 - the LMS representative and my mixed traffic machine. As it is a Stanier locomotive, it can be thought of as the ultimate development of that most important of machines, the 2 cylinder 4-6-0. Perhaps it can be thought of as Saint Class 4.0? No. 5000 was selected to represent the Black 5 class as part of the National Railway Collection as it is nearly in the condition it was as built.

 

7 No. 4468 Mallard - I think that some might have rather had No. 4472 Flying Scotsman in this place but that is an engine that is famous for being famous whereas Mallard is famous for really achieving something that has given the nation a great deal of pride ever since. The A4 design is also the epitome of the era in which it was conceived. Art Deco meets engineering. The LNER region representative.

 

8 No. 92220 Evening Star - not only a member of what I think is the greatest and most successful of the BR Standards, the mighty 9F, but her place as the last in line of the main line machines has to earn her a place in Castle Museum. Rocket at one end of the steam gallery and her at the other. The BR representative.

 

9 Class 08 Diesel Shunter - the humble 08 is without doubt one of the most unsung yet successful diesel machines that ever ran on a British railway. With some machines well past the 50 year old mark and still going strong AND being the most numerous class of British locomotive in preservation there has to be a place in Castle Museum for one! The pannier tanks, the Jinties, the Terriers and so on all lead here. No. 08 604 is of course a personal favourite but any will do!

 

10 HST Power Car - the best investment in the post modernisation passenger fleet ever. Period. World speed record holder for diesel traction for many years and an iconic shape to boot. The A4 for the post industrial era. A re engined machine doesn't have the screaming great sound of the original and the new lights don't aid the looks to my eye but it is still a great machine. No. 43024 would be an obvious personal choice...

 

Let the arguments begin!

 

All the best,

 

Castle