Rising Star/Slaters F8

[Rob Pulham]

My mojo has been lacking for a couple of months or so and I was struggling to decide what I might do to try to get me back into the swing of modelling. While on holiday last week after listening to me huff and puff about building different tank engines, Chris had the idea of conducting a lottery to decide for me.

 

I have 8 tank engine kits in the pile so I wrote out the names on some strips of paper and Chris folded them up. Initially I though thast she was going to put them in a bag to pick one but to make it a little more fun and long lasting she divided them into two piles and put one in each hand getting me to chose a hand. This process was repeated a couple more time with the result that the F8 was the one that I ended up with.

 

I bought the kit from the Bolton show a couple of years ago for £95 from the bring and buy stand and this is what was in the box.

 

 

At the time the kit was £115 from Slaters without wheels so I counted myself as getting a reasonable deal with the wheels and the photos. The only basic thing that seems to be missing is brake blocks but I will pcik up a pack of the Slaters plastic ones at Telford.

 

Since getting back from my hols I have had it out of the box and done a bit of reading up in the RCTS green book albeit there isn't much on them.

 

I have a few dilemmas in terms of I do, do I:

 

1. Make it spilt axle? If so how would I accommodate point 2?

 

2. Make radial trucks - I have the MRJ article where Laurie Griffin made some.

 

3. Fit working valve gear - my reading tells me that these had JOY single slide bar valve gear so I would have to buy some in and would it actually fit between the chassis? Out of the box the chassis is a fold up type and I suspect that I may need to separate the frames and make new spacers to do this.

 

4. Fit dummy Valve gear - Could the Gladiator dummy JOY valve gear be modified to represent the NER version (giving me quite a saving over buying working parts from Laurie Griffin?

 

5. Do I replace the radial truck wheel sets - I ask because I have never used Gibson wheels in this scale before and they are 3'8" diameter not the 3' 9" that were fitted to the F8's? My initial thinking is that I could probably get away with this discrepancy due to my plan to model it in the mid 1930's when there may have been some wear on the tyres by then.

 

So many questions and any thoughts/experiences on some of my questions will be gratefully received.

 

[N15class]

I do not know what is wrong with rising star kits, but I pick an A12 up with wheels ,but no castings in a box of wagons. The sale of the wagons in the box covered the cost of the the lot and paid for a set of castings too. Nice win for me.

 

The actually look well made. The fit of the parts on my loco chassis are very good. Must finish it one day.

[ozzyo]

 

1. Make it spilt axle? If so how would I accommodate point 2?

 

2. Make radial trucks - I have the MRJ article where Laurie Griffin made some.

 

3. Fit working valve gear - my reading tells me that these had JOY single slide bar valve gear so I would have to buy some in and would it actually fit between the chassis? Out of the box the chassis is a fold up type and I suspect that I may need to separate the frames and make new spacers to do this.

 

4. Fit dummy Valve gear - Could the Gladiator dummy JOY valve gear be modified to represent the NER version (giving me quite a saving over buying working parts from Laurie Griffin?

 

5. Do I replace the radial truck wheel sets - I ask because I have never used Gibson wheels in this scale before and they are 3'8" diameter not the 3' 9" that were fitted to the F8's? My initial thinking is that I could probably get away with this discrepancy due to my plan to model it in the mid 1930's when there may have been some wear on the tyres by then.

 

So many questions and any thoughts/experiences on some of my questions will be gratefully received.

 

 

Hello Rob,

 

you asked for any thoughts on this kit.

 

1. split axles are good, but it would be a lot of work on this kit. Think about Gibson (4mm) plungers on the driving wheels only.

 

2. use the radial axle boxes with one side live. That way you will get pick up over the four axles. Three on one side three on the other. If you use plastic for the radial axle box with a brass tube bearing and a small wire to it you will get the pick-up. Only one wheel to short out at each end.

 

3. Why? You wont see it working as the boiler is low pitched., with the interesting parts behind the tank. Also see answer to question 1. If you went down the split axle route.

 

4. Yes fit it, it will fill in a space between the frames. See answer to question 3. I have built a couple of tank locos that I've fitted full working valve gear to, but the only way to see it is when the loco is upside down! But saying that I did an L.N.W.R. super D and you could see a lot of it working. But yet again the best view was from underneath!!!!!!!!!!

 

5. If the wheels have the correct number of spokes and are about the right dia. why worry, as wheels could and were turned down by up to 3 1/2". Also could you see the 1" size difference? The other thing to think about is that our flanges are about twice the size of the real ones.  Beson did use the same size wheel on both Castles and Kings. One had a 6'9" wheel and the other had a 6'6" wheel. how do you get away with that on a new loco?

 

I have a similar problem on a loco that I'm building for myself,  Princess Anne, it should have 6'6" wheels with 20 spokes but Slater's only do 6'6" wheels with 21 spokes. The only person that did 20 spoke 6'6" wheels was Alan Harris.

 

Wheels are a bit odd in that the L.N.W.R. quoted the wheel centre size not the tyre size, so that a 6' wheel was more likely to be a 6'6" wheel. 3" tyre with a turning down size of  1 1/2" (per side) giving a 6'3" size at its minimum.

 

OzzyO.

 

[Rob Pulham]

Thanks for the thoughts Paul.

 

I planned to use Slaters insulated hornblocks for the radial trucks but I hadn't thought of only shorting out one side of each.

[chaz]

I do not know what is wrong with rising star kits, but I pick an A12 up with wheels ,but no castings in a box of wagons. The sale of the wagons in the box covered the cost of the the lot and paid for a set of castings too. Nice win for me.

 

The actually look well made. The fit of the parts on my loco chassis are very good. Must finish it one day.

 

I know nothing about the F8 kit but I know someone who built the A12. As he was inexperienced with etched brass kits he built the body first. All went well with him following the instructions carefully (he was an industrial model-maker by trade and very skillful). After he built the frames he tried to fit the body - the wheels would not go in to the splashers which were far too narrow - much anglo-saxon ensued and he had to dismantle some of the work above the footplate and rebuild.

Some brass kits do present the builder with problems arising out of poor design, unrectified mistakes or inadequate instructions. Unfortunately often the only way to find out the flaws is to build the kit - something which you might have expected the original kit designer to have done?

[Rob Pulham]

My Mojo is returning so I have made a small start on the F8 in so much as Having had a looked at Premier's site and not finding any suitable replacement coupling rods (and hearing about long waits for bespoke stuff). Working on the theory that I have nothing to lose but a bit of time, I soldered together the Slaters steel coupling rods and cleaned them up - they look a lot better to the naked eye thank they do in the photo....

 

Leaving them looking like this

 

 

I still need to open out the holes for the crank pin bushes.

 

Having had quite a few bits of advice/suggestions I have ultimately decided on:

 

·         Radial trucks front and rear but shorted out one side only and picking up one from each side and I will see how I get on with the Gibson wheels – Slaters don’t do the correct size either so worn it will be. If I have any problems with the Gibsons I will replace them with Slaters.

·         Working inside motion but the crank axle wheels will only be shorted to the crank pin and will use the coupling rods to pass the current.

·         Split axle for the remaining drive axle.

 

 

 

[ozzyo]

·         Radial trucks front and rear but shorted out one side only and picking up one from each side and I will see how I get on with the Gibson wheels – Slaters don’t do the correct size either so worn it will be. If I have any problems with the Gibsons I will replace them with Slaters.

·         Working inside motion but the crank axle wheels will only be shorted to the crank pin and will use the coupling rods to pass the current.

·         Split axle for the remaining drive axle.

 

Hello Rob,

 

sorry to say it, but I think that you making a lot of work for very little gain in the working valve gear. But it's your loco.

 

I'm not sure how shorting out the wheels only to the crank pin will work (it should work, BUT), in transmitting the electricity (all of that oil) Via the coupling rods. Then you have to make a three part axle for the axle that has the gearbox on it. Or are you thinking about live frames on one side? That way you only need to have one spilt on the driven axle.

 

I would still go for split axle front and rear and 4mm plungers (Gibson nice and small) on the drivers. I've used them on Halls that have to do a bit of work (a good motor and gear box)  with no problems.

 

ATB

 

OzzyO

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Paul, as I understand it the Joy valve gear has a peculiar motion that is quite visible under the boiler and I have been looking to have a go at inside motion "just for the hell of it" for quite some time so now's the time to bite the bullet. I appreciate what you say about using Gibson plungers but having had a bad experience with my J63 with plungers I am reluctance to go that route again (admittedly they were Slaters not Gibsons) 

 

Talking of Gibsons I have run into the first snag last night - no metal centre bush for shorting them out...... It looks like a visit to Slaters for replacement wheels is on the cards at Telford.

[Guest Isambarduk]

Go for it, Bob!  It is fun.

 

Here is a clip of the Joy valvegear in my Cauliflower.  Admittedly, it's without the body but you can certainly see it all 'gliding and swooping' about now that the loco is complete and running.  It may be mad but it was worth it (just the once).

 

 

 

 

David

(aka DLOS)

 

[ozzyo]

Talking of Gibsons I have run into the first snag last night - no metal centre bush for shorting them out...... It looks like a visit to Slaters for replacement wheels is on the cards at Telford.

 

Hello Bob,

 

before you spend some more money on Slater's wheels, why not try this. 

 

File a small slot in the hole in the centre of the wheel about half the depth of the wire. You will have to make sure that you have a small radius where the axle meets the the rear of the wheel so that the wire does not get cut. When I'm shorting out wheels I cut a slot up the back of one of the spokes and into the wheel centre and the wheel rim. Also cutting the slot stops the wire getting rubbed away on the bearing.

 

It could be worth a try before spending any money.

 

OzzyO.

[Rob Pulham]

Thanks for that Paul, I will see what can be done. My other concern with the Gibson wheels is getting them square on the axles (so that there is no wobble) there doesn't seem to be much to locate them.

[ozzyo]

Thanks for that Paul, I will see what can be done. My other concern with the Gibson wheels is getting them square on the axles (so that there is no wobble) there doesn't seem to be much to locate them.

 

Hello Rob,

 

sounds a bit like the Slater's wheels for 5/32" axles, as you can see in the scan below.

 

These normally run OK. Thinking about shorting the wheels out you could also drill the axles for the wire to fit into and solder it into  place. The hard thing about doing this would be lining up the slot with the wire when you fit the wheels onto the axles.

 

OzzyO.

[Rob Pulham]

Hello Rob,

 

sounds a bit like the Slater's wheels for 5/32" axles, as you can see in the scan below.

wheels.jpg

 

These normally run OK. Thinking about shorting the wheels out you could also drill the axles for the wire to fit into and solder it into  place. The hard thing about doing this would be lining up the slot with the wire when you fit the wheels onto the axles.

 

OzzyO.

 

They do look similar the difference being that they have a screw like the 3/16 axles but only a very tiny lip to locate them. I have them so I may as well have a go and buy from Slaters if it goes south.

[ozzyo]

They do look similar the difference being that they have a screw like the 3/16 axles but only a very tiny lip to locate them. I have them so I may as well have a go and buy from Slaters if it goes south.

 

 

How about a photo of them, it may help a bit.

 

OzzyO.

[Rob Pulham]

How about a photo of them, it may help a bit.

 

OzzyO.

Sorry Paul, I thought that I had posted one but having looked.......DOH!!

 

[Rob Pulham]

Here is where I admit to a proper Doh!! moment. 

Last night I realised that the safety valve bonnet in the kit is a white metal casting - a very nice whitemetal casting to be fair. But I want to be able to finish it as polished brass. While I could probably paint it brass coloured and varnish it, I would rather it be brass and with a lever (which mine hasn't got at present although I could no doubt make one up from some scrap etch). 

I have a Laurie Griffin/Shedmaster LNER J24/25 kit in my stash so I thought that I would have a look at the safety valve cover to see if it was what I had in mind. (to add it to the list of things that I need to get from Laurie at Telford). While looking I noticed that the tender wheels were Slaters 3' 9" 10 spoke LNWR General Pattern..... A quick check in my F5 kit revealed two axles Slaters 3' 9" 10 spoke LNWR General Pattern.....

 

Having got all the chores in the garden out of the way in preparation for the landscapers coming the Mojo returned in force and yesterday I shorted out the wheels and blackened them (tapping the threads 10ba and fitting 10ba screws). I then drilled out an axle ready for epoxying GRP rod down the centre and blackened and made a start on drilling out the coupling rods.

 

It feels good to have made a start on it.

 

 

 

I also discovered while looking at the various bits and pieces that there isn't a back head so I have one on order from Laurie Griffin - my Telford shopping list grows!

 

The observant amongst you will have noticed the 2 shorted out Slaters bogie wheels? Having realised that I had them in stock I chickened out of messing with the Gibson's and they are destined for the Bay of E. I had nicely finished blackening them and cleaned up when I realised that I should have done both pairs:0(

 

 

 

[Rob Pulham]

I am slowly but surely making progress. 

 

I have now prepared the axles for epoxying. The observant among you will note that there are more axles than I need splitting for the F8 here. I had already drilled out the centres of 3 axles previously for one of my other tanks so I decided to drill a fourth the only one that I need for the F8 and then do the rest of the splitting on the four. Working on the mix plenty of epoxy up that every article on split axles that I have read recommends it seemed sensible to do a few while I have  the job on the go.

 

In the main I followed Steph's nicely documented method found here

 

The only deviations from Steph's methods are that I used my pillar drill to drill out the axles and having tried a diamond slitting disk, as Steph recommends for cutting the GRP rod, I still got some fraying.

 

My alternative was to roll a scalpel blade backwards and forwards over it until it cut through (much like you would to cut microbore tube). It took a little longer but resulted in a nice clean cut with no fraying.

 

There are more holes than are visible in the photo above I just did a poor job of positioning them for the photo.

 

Next job is the messy one - epoxy here I come....

 

 

 

[Rob Pulham]

Despite having quite a busy social life at present with one thing and another I have still made some progress on the F8

 

I finished splitting the axles - they just need a final clean up - only one of these is for the F8 though (the one with the two splits)

 

 

And here's the one that got away - I was doing them last thing at night and I can only surmise that I didn't take enough time to work the epoxy fully through the spilt. The upside is that I can make use of the stub axles....... or so I am telling myself.

 

I assume that Slaters sell single axles?

 

 

While the epoxy has been drying I also made small start on assembling the boiler.

 

 

As you can see from the photo the boiler bands are formed from a half etched recess and then an etched strip that fit's in the recess but has folds/holes etched in for the cleats. I wondered if I could use a scale hardware stud to represent the fastener.

 

 

 

I have only done the one so far (and I need to centre it yet) - from the instructions there are two that will be visible beyond the ends of tanks. The rest need to be cut short when a cut out is made for the motor.

 

[ozzyo]

Hello Rob,

 

what you require is the following.

 

X78002 Fine standard driving wheel axle(29.2mm B- B ) with screws. £2.96.

 

OzzyO.

[Rob Pulham]

The sun shone very nicely in our part of the world today.  So having done some chores yesterday and bearing in mind Chris's desire to get me out in the garden more I took some modelling out into the garden today.

 

The chores took the form of making a walkway across the stream bed.

 

 

Chris took a couple of shots of me modelling in the garden just in case it never happens again

 

 

The modelling tool the form of cutting out for the hornblocks/guides on the chassis and drilling out all the rivets - the etched marks that Slaters/Rising Star have on the etches are way too big so I plan to use some lace pin heads as the Scale hardware rivets that I have in stock are all quite small.

[Guest Isambarduk]

"making a walkway across the stream bed"

 

That's very nice, Rob.  And will the railway bridge run alongside

 

David

[Rob Pulham]

"making a walkway across the stream bed"

 

That's very nice, Rob.  And will the railway bridge run alongside

 

David

 

Hi David, 

 

That's a new thread in the making....

[Rob Pulham]

And this is the product of today's efforts

 

 

Below is the motion plate that I mentioned in Mick's thread and the ash pan folded up but not yet soldered.

 

[hartleymartin]

 

1. Make it spilt axle? If so how would I accommodate point 2?

 

2. Make radial trucks - I have the MRJ article where Laurie Griffin made some.

 

3. Fit working valve gear - my reading tells me that these had JOY single slide bar valve gear so I would have to buy some in and would it actually fit between the chassis? Out of the box the chassis is a fold up type and I suspect that I may need to separate the frames and make new spacers to do this.

 

4. Fit dummy Valve gear - Could the Gladiator dummy JOY valve gear be modified to represent the NER version (giving me quite a saving over buying working parts from Laurie Griffin?

 

5. Do I replace the radial truck wheel sets - I ask because I have never used Gibson wheels in this scale before and they are 3'8" diameter not the 3' 9" that were fitted to the F8's? My initial thinking is that I could probably get away with this discrepancy due to my plan to model it in the mid 1930's when there may have been some wear on the tyres by then.

 

1.) Lightly sprung plunger pick-ups should work just fine. You could also use strips of phosphor-bronze rubbing on the backs of the tyres and they would work quite well. Phosphor-bronze is a slippery, greasy sort of metal and you can adjust the tension against the backs of the wheels by bending them.

 

2.) Why not? One idea: Why not make the chassis live to one side and then use pick-ups for the other side? That would eliminate half the resistance of the pick-ups against the wheels. Use 6B or 9B graphite in the bearings. This will help conductivity and you'll never need to lubricate the bearings again.
 

3 and 4.) Why bother? It's a lot of work for something that will be invisible when you finish the model.

 

5.) Slightly under-sized wheels are not a problem. Depending on the railway company, the wheels could wear up to 3 or 4 inches off the diameter before they were replaced, so long as they have the right number of spokes (which isn't always apparent anyway). If you've got them and they work, there's no reason to worry. If it really bothers you, then go ahead and replace the wheels.

 

[Rob Pulham]

Thanks for the thoughts Martin. 

 

I have used phosphor bronze strips on a previous loco build and ended up replacing them with nickel wire because I just couldn't get them to work very reliably - I am sure it was down to me and it being my first 7mm loco build and scratch built at that.

 

I have now split the axles so I will use the two radial trucks picking up one side only almost as you suggest but to be honest a lot of what I am doing with this one is trials for a couple more 2-4-2's that I have in the stash. 

 

I do appreciate why you suggest that the valve gear will not be seen but I think that the joy gear will be much more visible than Stephensons - and I have bought it now so onwards an upwards as they say...

 

I would have used and accepted the Gibson's being under sized but ultimately I couldn't get them to sit square on the axle ends so abandoned them - it wasn't too difficult a decision once I realised that I had the correct sized ones stashed in another kit....