Poor connection timings

[woodenhead]

So there I was on the 17:21 TPE service from Barrow to Windermere and I needed to get a connecting Glasgow to Manchester service at Lancaster.

 

The timetable allows 6 minutes which is just about ok to switch trains but the Windermere service uses the bay platform on the down side of the station and the Manchester service uses the through up platform. This means a quick dash down the length of the platform over the bridge and down to the up platform.

 

Whilst the timetable allows transit time, what tends to happen is that the train comes to a halt outside the station waiting for at least one and sometimes two northbound trains to pass before crossing wrong line and entering the bay. All the time it is standing at the signal the southbound Manchester service is approaching to the point that it can be right behind the Windermere service waiting to enter the station. This means that as you alight the Windermere train they are announcing the arrival of the Manchester train.

 

So for a fit person like myself it just means legging it across the station but if your not so nimble it's not easy as I saw tonight with a lady who had a really bad back. Luckily they were heading to Preston on an off peak return so I told them not to worry and get the Virgin service due in at 18:45, not only will they get more time to change platforms but it won't packed like the TPE service which as usual was a packed three car. But if they had been heading to Manchester, tough they were never going to make the connection.

 

I wonder if the connections will remain this tight when the electric services start.

 

So does anyone else get poor connections like this on there regular forays across the network?

[big jim]

I had i a couple of weeks back, an advertised 15 minute connection at shrewsbury from chirk to hereford, held outside shrewsbury station until about 3 mins before connection is about to leave, our unit pulls in then proceeds to couple up to unit off the cambrian so the guard does not open the doors straight away, doors open at 13:40 just as the doors shut on the hereford train in the adjacent platform and it pulls out as a good 10-15 passengers run across!

 

It used to annoy me in crewe when j worked for fnw/atw when virgin staff would come up and say "spoke to your control and they are going to hold your holyhead for our late running liverpool connecting service", you would call control who knew nothing about it, they would sometimes hold us for 10 mins + But When you asked them o return the favour if you were late off the coast you 9 times out of 10 get told they wouldn't hold their service for you

[jonhall]

In the week or two of rail commuting that followed my car crash I did Thames Ditton-Surbiton-Weybridge -Virginia Water-Egham, and discovered there were a couple of tricks to the commute.

 

At Surbiton there was a zero connection from Thames Ditton to the Woking-bound train which makes a comfortable connection at Weybridge (I still caught it twice).

 

The following train had a nominal 6 minute connection at Weybridge, but to make it I had to be standing in the leading doorway of the penultimate coach, or the rear doorway in the 3rd from rear in order to stand a fighting chance of getting up the stairwell and across the bridge before the gaggle of Brooklands students blocked the stairs, and on one occasion I pretty much had to jam myself in the closing doors when the guard seemed to actually wait until he saw the first of his connecting passengers coming down the stairs before setting them to close!

 

At Virginia Water the same train then sits for 9 minutes to let a Reading-Waterloo go past, so if I walked through the train (Weybridge the stairs are right at the rear, at V W they are right at the front) I had time to cross and catch the Reading train, which in turn resulted in me being able to catch the last 'works' minibus from the station to work, provided I managed to get near enough to the rear of the train, otherwise the minibus driver wouldn't always wait. I was lucky in that the only day that the Weybridge-VW guard made the announcement to cross over at VW, was the first day, otherwise I might have stayed on the train from Weybridge, been 8 minutes later at Egham, and had been 20+ minutes later into work.

 

Jon

[chrisf]

My forthcoming trip to Expo-EM North includes a 6 minute connection at Stockport according to National Rail Enquiries.  This will be easy if and only if (a) the Virgin train from MK is punctual and ( B) the train forward to Manchester Oxford Road departs from the same platform.  Dream on, Chris ...

 

Chris [that smiley icon is supposed to be the letter 'b'!)

[edcayton]

apparently the trick is to leave a space between the b and the ) Chris.

 

Ed

[great central]

My forthcoming trip to Expo-EM North includes a 6 minute connection at Stockport according to National Rail Enquiries.  This will be easy if and only if (a) the Virgin train from MK is punctual and ( B) the train forward to Manchester Oxford Road departs from the same platform.  Dream on, Chris ...

 

Chris [that smiley icon is supposed to be the letter 'b'!)

 

There are only two Manchester bound through platforms at Stockport, both on the same island. I presume you'll be using either EMT or TPE from Stockport to Oxford Road? TPE are getting quite a few cancellations at the moment, some kind of industrial action I believe. EMT are also having some issues but not as bad it seems.

Do you have time on the Oxford Road connection to stay on the train to Piccadilly and change there? There are trains every few minutes from Picc to Occie Road, all from platform 14, about 5 minutes brisk walk from the other platforms. You're heading for Humphrey Park I would assume, the Northern Lime Street stopper from Oxford  Road, usually platform 5. 

[corneliuslundie]

Is Humphrey Park better for Expo EM North than Urmston? According to the info I have seen there is a free bus shuttle from the latter.

Jonathan

[chrisf]

Thanks, Great Central.  I had already thought that iit would be better to stay with Virgin into Piccadilly as there are more trains from there to Oxford Road than there are from Stockport but I'm reassured by what you say about Stockport station.  According to NRE it would be Northern Rail that conveys me forward to ManOx and thence to Urmston.  In Switzerland, fwiw, I would not be in the least concerned at a 6 minute connection but we are where we are!

 

Thanks also to Ed.  I seldom use smileys - not deliberately, anyway - and your tip for outwitting the computer is welcome as always.

 

Chris

 

Edit - Jonathan, you are quite right.  It's only a Routemaster but it will do fine!

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Three Bridges; a dreadful station for connections on so many levels!

 

If I had the power...

 

Who ever designed - and authorised the design for - the access stairs to platform 5 should be made to explain to the hundreds of commutors that struggle with the brainless design on a daily basis, quite why they thought this was an appropriate layout. Awkward at best; downright dangerous at worst. They should then be condemned to spending the rest of their working lives trying to use it to make the tight connections between the FCC train from London Bridge and the Horsham and Arun valley line.

 

Who ever designed - and authorised - the timetables, should be made to explain their rationale to the hundreds of commutors that are fighting with the useless access stairs whilst they can hear their connection pulling away. An extra minute or two won't make much difference; over ten minutes are wasted at Horsham due to inadaquate signalling on the Arun valley line split.

 

I would say that the dispatch staff who signal right away in the full knowledge there are people rushing from platform 5 should be made to explain their actions, but the other week one did dispatch an Arun valley service whilst people were rushing from a late running Southern train to Brighton. As the train departed he was left surrounded by a number of very angry people pointing out that an extra 30 seconds wait would not have caused any extra disruption to the notoriously unreliable Arun valley services.

[Chris116]

Connections (or lack of them) are a very sore point with me.

 

I volunteer on the Mid Hants Railway but only ever work trains from the Alton end of the line as in their wisdom Stagecoach who run the bus from Alton to Alresford and also the South West Trains to Alton have the wonderful connection at Alton that sees the bus leave at exactly the time the train arrives. This means that I then have half an hour to wait for the next bus and means that Stagecoach loose the fare as I will not waste an extra hour each day to sit around due to their lack of planning.

[Vin]

Hi Claude_Dreyfus,

Is this all the same TOC? I can understand it being different ones such as trans pennine express verses east coast. Some of their connection times are so out of sync that the next scheduled service is the connecting one!

Some of the connection times at stations have been increased due to modern stock (doors mainly) and changes in custom herding (crowd control) which makes everyone collide with one another.

 

Vin

[beast66606]

Do you have time on the Oxford Road connection to stay on the train to Piccadilly and change there? There are trains every few minutes from Picc to Occie Road, all from platform 14, about 5 minutes brisk walk from the other platforms. You're heading for Humphrey Park I would assume, the Northern Lime Street stopper from Oxford  Road, usually platform 5. 

 

The Virgin will arrive in one of the middle platforms, 5 iirc and the Occie Road departs from 14 - it's a fair walk when time is tight, up stairs / escalator too, and if the ticket barriers are in full swing at the top of 13/14 you need to add more time so only do this if you miss the Stockport connection.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Hi Claude_Dreyfus,

Is this all the same TOC? I can understand it being different ones such as trans pennine express verses east coast. Some of their connection times are so out of sync that the next scheduled service is the connecting one!

Some of the connection times at stations have been increased due to modern stock (doors mainly) and changes in custom herding (crowd control) which makes everyone collide with one another.

 

Vin

 

It is a combination. There are two TOCs involved - FCC and Southern. However, issues arise with connections between Brighton line services (both Southern and FCC) and the Horsham and Arun valley route (Southern). It has long been an issue, and even when they combine the two franchises sometime in the future, I don't think it will go away...

[Vin]

I think it the TOCs aren't the only ones to blame. Doesn't network rail plan the time tables, hence the connections. So when the two franchises do merge the main problem doesn't go away. However it does mean that one TOC can't blame the other so the finger points directly at network rail.

 

Vin

[SM42]

Perhaps what we perceive as a connecting service in nothing of the sort. Do official connections actually exist any more?

 

It is just a coincidence that a train for the next part of our journey leaves 5 minutes after you arrive and really you should be looking at the train 20 minutes later as the real connection.

 

That tight one was for the train before the one you are on.

 

If you want some real connection  fun try catching a train from Birmingham Moor St towards Stourbridge after arriving in New St from Euston on  Sunday evening without having to wait an hour.

 

Smethwick Galton Bridge can be fun too and is good for keeping  fit. Platform 3 or 4 to platform 1 in less than 4 minutes (you don't want to risk the lifts.)

 

Andy

[Jonboy]

Try getting from Didcot to Reading west at the moment - I had three exams on consecutive days a couple of months back and the 7 minutes time difference between the two trains evaporated into the building work on two of the three days....I would have driven but the conference centre that host the exams had advised their car park was closed as Network rail are using it for contractors etc...

[edcayton]

...and we're seriously supporting this as a means of transport?

 

Ed

[The Stationmaster]

Try getting from Didcot to Reading west at the moment - I had three exams on consecutive days a couple of months back and the 7 minutes time difference between the two trains evaporated into the building work on two of the three days....I would have driven but the conference centre that host the exams had advised their car park was closed as Network rail are using it for contractors etc...

Probably quicker to walk - once you've got off the giant footbridge thingy.

[woodenhead]

Is Humphrey Park better for Expo EM North than Urmston? According to the info I have seen there is a free bus shuttle from the latter.

Jonathan

The shuttle bus is one reason to get off at Urmston, if you know the area there are other reasons why you might prefer the ambience of Urmston town centre.

[woodenhead]

I thought anything under 7  minutes wasn't classed as a connection?

In my case both services are run by TPE, I think the Windermere train might once have gone to the airport as several services split and join at Preston running 6 minutes apart between Lancaster and Preston. That might also explain why the Glasgow-Manchester service was running as 3 coaches over the customary 6 because in the past it would have joined the ex Barrow service at Preston.

[Derekl]

Agree with Beast above - the change from the terminal platforms at Man Picc to 13/14 is a hassle. If you decide to do so, use the footbridge on the southern end of the station which gives direct access to 13/14, rather than going through the forecourt. There are ticket checks at the entrance to 13/14, conducted by a security company, not rail staff, so have the ticket ready - the checks are perfunctory, so anything that looks vaguely like a rail ticket will work, but it is probably better to have the right one.

 

As far as I am aware, the National Rail travel planning web-site requires 10 minutes (perhaps more) before showing a connection. For cross London connections on the tube, it gives something like an hour or more for tube journeys that take 20 minutes or so.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I think the notion of the guarenteed connection is dead nowadays. That said, if it shows on the National Rail Enquiries as a connection, does that count?

[phil-b259]

I think the notion of the guarenteed connection is dead nowadays. That said, if it shows on the National Rail Enquiries as a connection, does that count?

 

Yes it does.

 

At stations where interchange between services occurs a minimum connection time (based on the worst case - i.e. furthest platforms, walking not running adult of average physical fitness, etc.) is stored in the database. If someone request a journey and the gap between train arriving and departing is less than that in the database then the software deliberately excludes that as a possible option which can sometimes result in excessively long waits for no apparent reason. Its also why sometimes the route suggested by the national rail inquiries system might suggest changing at a different place to where you might want to (assuming both are possible) because of the timings

 

However there is a more serious point to all this when it comes to the 'last train' situation. If train A is delayed resulting in a below standard connection time and a passenger misses train B as a result then the TOC responsible for the delayed train have an obligation to provide onward transport to the destination on the passengers ticket (including Taxis from another TOCs station if required). If however train A arrives on time and the connection time is therefore meets that in the database then if the passenger misses train B because they have gone outside for a smoke then it is the fault of the passenger (with a few exceptions such as the customer information not working and them waiting on the wrong platform for example)

[phil-b259]

Three Bridges; a dreadful station for connections on so many levels!

 

If I had the power...

 

Who ever designed - and authorised the design for - the access stairs to platform 5 should be made to explain to the hundreds of commutors that struggle with the brainless design on a daily basis, quite why they thought this was an appropriate layout. Awkward at best; downright dangerous at worst. They should then be condemned to spending the rest of their working lives trying to use it to make the tight connections between the FCC train from London Bridge and the Horsham and Arun valley line.

 

Dispite all its faults (the biggest in my mind being the lack of glass screens to protect the stairs from rain being blown sideways and the lack of a undercover connection to the undercover waiting area -  which I hasten to add is just a very big glorified bus shelter) the current access is a big improvement with the much narrower and steeper stairs that were there before

 

 

Who ever designed - and authorised - the timetables, should be made to explain their rationale to the hundreds of commutors that are fighting with the useless access stairs whilst they can hear their connection pulling away. An extra minute or two won't make much difference; over ten minutes are wasted at Horsham due to inadaquate signalling on the Arun valley line split.

 

I would say that the dispatch staff who signal right away in the full knowledge there are people rushing from platform 5 should be made to explain their actions, but the other week one did dispatch an Arun valley service whilst people were rushing from a late running Southern train to Brighton. As the train departed he was left surrounded by a number of very angry people pointing out that an extra 30 seconds wait would not have caused any extra disruption to the notoriously unreliable Arun valley services.

 

Seconds DO make a difference - though it might not seem like it to the average man in the street. Spend a shift in a modern power box like Three Bridges and you will quickly appreciate that. In the case of the Arun valley an extra 30 seconds at Three Bridges might not sound much but don't forget the Arun valley services also have to fit round a fairly intensive coast way service in the Barnham area and at pressent the signalling makes delays difficult to recover from. You also have to consider that the Southern Timetable has to be written around the big pinch points which are Victoria / London Bridge Station throats, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath / Keymer Junc while Arun Valley trains usually have the problem of Redhill and the coastway services to contend with.

 

As for the unreliability as you quite correctly state the biggest problem with the Arun valley is the long block sections between stations south of Horsham to Arundel. For example in the Up direction the section of line between Christs Hospital and Horsham consists of a single block section, in future this will consist of 4 block sections improving the situation for trains that come up one behind another then attach at Horsham. Similar improvements in the Down direction should also help with trains that split at Horsham.

[woodenhead]

Is it that rough then?

I lived 5 minutes walk from the station and I preferred the 10 minute walk from Urmston.