Colin parks Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) Maybe somebody will bring one out ready-to-run. We can but hope. Well Budgie, You can but hope for such a thing. Considering the size of the fleet and its iconic status as the archetypal 'Southern Electric' suburban train, it must be a possibility. There are some significant, shall we say, 'differences' between the drawings I am using and photos of the real thing: driver's door droplight; cab front windows' shape and size; shape of 'new' trailer trusses; lack of compressor, to name the major points. Other significant variations existed within the class, so a product designer would have to tread carefully. One can only wonder if a manufacturer would pick up on these things though. I have heard nothing to say anyone is developing a model, but would lobby them strongly to do my best to ensure that these errors were not replicated - should a manufacturer announce their intentions. All the best, Colin Edited October 8, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I looked again at those cab fronts this afternoon and had the feeling that they were not quite right. The windows looked like those on the drawing, but on comparing to the Tin HAL front (which has an identical front), the window openings were too square. So it was out with the knife again and a new, more rounded pair of fronts have been knocked out. The first ones look pretty poor in comparison and I'm glad they didn't make it onto the model. The new fronts are to the right, which ought to be obvious. It was kind of everyone not to point out what a crap job I had made of the first lot! IMG_7098.JPG That'll teach me to refer to photos at all times. On these old SR units, if the cab front is not bang on, they look all wrong to me. Colin Hi Colin Errr,... nope,... I didn't pick that out, (Including the Hornby 2-BIL's missing compressor) either.... S'funny how I / you, miss the obvious, seeing how Bulleid was well known for introducing generous curves upon his creations, windows included. The SUB' s looking good, very good. All the best, Frank. I Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 There are some significant, shall we say, 'differences' between the drawings I've see a kosher BR drawing (back in the day) of a 4-SUB with a pantograph fitted on the DMBSO roof over the guards compt............... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 Hi Colin Errr,... nope,... I didn't pick that out, (Including the Hornby 2-BIL's missing compressor) either.... S'funny how I / you, miss the obvious, seeing how Bulleid was well known for introducing generous curves upon his creations, windows included. The SUB' s looking good, very good. All the best, Frank. I Hi Frank, Thanks for your comment re. the work so far. These topics are tending to turn into research projects, which slows things down a bit, but adds to the interest for me. Your dimensioned photo of the compartment windows, which was posted when the Tin HAL was being built last year, has proved more useful than the 4 SUB drawings for getting the exact proportions right. All the best, Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 I've see a kosher BR drawing (back in the day) of a 4-SUB with a pantograph fitted on the DMBSO roof over the guards compt............... Hi Southernman46, That drawing might be in the Barrowmore MRG web archive. I am sure I have seen the one you describe somewhere. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I've see a kosher BR drawing (back in the day) of a 4-SUB with a pantograph fitted on the DMBSO roof over the guards compt............... Do you mean like this? I posted this in #99 of Colin's 2 Bil repaint. Dave 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Presumably that's a 1500V d.c. pantograph rather than a 25kV a.c. one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Do you mean like this? I posted this in #99 of Colin's 2 Bil repaint. Dave That's the one - first saw it back on the old SR Rolling stock development section in '81 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 Slow but steady progress on the cab fronts. At lest nothing has had to be thrown away this week. The hinge pins and fittings on the l/h window are made from minute lengths of 0.3mm rod - and they are still a bit too big! The shape of the cab windows has been achieved, is an achievement it is, using dasatcopthorne's dimensions - thanks Dave. The published plans I have are incorrect when compared to photos of the real thing. From what I have seen recently, the differing height of the 4 SUB drivers and hinged cab windows seems to catch out some model manufacturers: The route indicator panels are more or less done and various brackets have had their detailing started. Unit 4377 only had one step and grab handles, adjacent to the hinged l/h window at each end. The cab is meant to look like that of the Tin HAL (hopefully better) made last year: I was appalled to see where I had put the hinge pins on the Tin HAL's hinged window and the route indicator panel is a fraction too wide - oops! Colin 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 This unit is shaping up very nicely Colin; the detail on the cab fronts (above) is particularly impressive. All the best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 I was appalled to see where I had put the hinge pins on the Tin HAL's hinged window and the route indicator panel is a fraction too wide - oops! Colin You had got away with it until then! Just a small suggestion for these short bits of really fine rod. If your 0.3 is too thick, by warming it (steam from a kettle) then pulling it, you can thin it down to anything you need - obviously, it does not work for long lengths as the thickness varies, but this does mean that for short bits you find exactly the diameter you need somewhere along the thinned length. Even better, since .3 is not cheap for what it is, you can pull much thicker stuff - including old bit of moulding sprue - down to almost nothing. But then you probably knew that anyway! Excellent stuff, and looking forward to more! Best Wishes, 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 (edited) Hi Colin. Son of Ceptic told me something of interest, today, regarding the strip across the top of the Driver's window. That strip is actually painted on the glass and acts as a mask. The reason behind this is that, when the flip-down sun-visor, seen here, on a 2-BIL, was fitted to the 4-SUBs, they were discovered to be too short, in depth, to be effective. On being lowered, by being attached to blocks of wood, it was found that this resulted in a gap at the top, where the sun continued to shine through, hence the painted strip (Not all, apparently a few SUBs missed out). Nowadays, the future's so bright, the Driver's gotta wear shades All the best, Frank. Edited October 11, 2013 by Ceptic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 11, 2013 Author Share Posted October 11, 2013 You had got away with it until then! Just a small suggestion for these short bits of really fine rod. If your 0.3 is too thick, by warming it (steam from a kettle) then pulling it, you can thin it down to anything you need - obviously, it does not work for long lengths as the thickness varies, but this does mean that for short bits you find exactly the diameter you need somewhere along the thinned length. Even better, since .3 is not cheap for what it is, you can pull much thicker stuff - including old bit of moulding sprue - down to almost nothing. But then you probably knew that anyway! Excellent stuff, and looking forward to more! Best Wishes, Hi Howard, No, it hadn't occurred to me to use that technique on plastic, although I have been known to give wavy brass wire a good tug to bring it to remove kinks. Ironically, I did have to straighten the 0.3mm rod by pulling it gently. If only I had pulled a bit harder.... All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 11, 2013 Author Share Posted October 11, 2013 (edited) Hi Colin. Son of Ceptic told me something of interest, today, regarding the strip across the top of the Driver's window. That strip is actually painted on the glass and acts as a mask. The reason behind this is that, when the flip-down sun-visor, seen here, on a 2-BIL, ScannedImage-23.jpg was fitted to the 4-SUBs, they were discovered to be too short, in depth, to be effective. On being lowered, by being attached to blocks of wood, it was found that this resulted in a gap at the top, where the sun continued to shine through, hence the painted strip (Not all, apparently a few SUBs missed out). Nowadays, the future's so bright, the Driver's gotta wear shades All the best, Frank. That piece of information has come at just the right time Frank. Thank son-of Frank for me! I have just added one 'strip', a piece of 10 thou. plastic placed behind the opening, which also gives a useful ledge for the flush glazing to sit on. I am now tempted to leave the strip off at the other end and install a motorman complete with 'aviator' style sunglasses. Here is the stripless cab front, which does have a feature only present on 4377: the plated-over vent above the drivers window. As you will know, the tiny square to its lower right is the plated-over hole for the whistle's air pipe ( found on all 'horned' 4 SUBs: All the best, Colin Edited October 11, 2013 by Colin parks 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 Here is the stripless cab front, which does have a feature only present on 4377: the plated-over vent above the drivers window. As you will know, the tiny square to its lower right is the plated-over hole for the whistle's air pipe ( found on all 'horned' 4 SUBs: Wow, I would have said your tin HAL would be hard to better but you have managed it - particularly the extra detail on the headcode box and the proportions of the jumper boxes and sockets. Is it too late to request a blow by blow on exactly how you make these? (particularly the Control sockets) Sonofceptic's revelation (which seems to ring a bell somehow) presents an interesting challenge in the paint shop! Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 11, 2013 Author Share Posted October 11, 2013 Wow, I would have said your tin HAL would be hard to better but you have managed it - particularly the extra detail on the headcode box and the proportions of the jumper boxes and sockets. Is it too late to request a blow by blow on exactly how you make these? (particularly the Control sockets) Sonofceptic's revelation (which seems to ring a bell somehow) presents an interesting challenge in the paint shop! Best wishes, You are kind Howard, the MU fittings are the usual Parks' smoke and mirrors job! It just so happens I did make sketch of the principal dimensions of the parts. Most started off from a length of 60 thou. x 2.5mm strip, shaping each part then cutting it off. Here is the aforesaid sketch. It is a little idiosyncratic as it was only made to remind me of what to do next time. (I am not totally sure of the shape of the socket on the far right of the cab. It could well be too square and is likely to be subject to alteration.) The yellow strip could be painted on the reverse of the window glazing I suppose, but as I have said for my purposes the painted strip of plastic works nicely and looks the same in effect. All the best, Colin 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Colin, Many thanks for this - something of a work of art in itself - and reminder to us all that these things don't "just happen": a bit of forethought and planning is a big help! Smoke and mirrors eh... ??? The socket on the far right is the power jumper dummy receptacle and I think you are right - its front should be almost a half-cylinder as the plug which goes in there is circular - the power jumper socket on the other side (the one in the middle of the left hand group) is "squarer" only because the top part of it contains the termination for the line cable to the power jumper connection box. However, dare I also suggest that the bottom half of this should also be a bit "rounded" as well? By contrast, the one next to it (middle of the RH group) is the control jumper socket and the plug which goes in here is rectangular in plan - hence a "square" box for the socket (and the dummy). http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/7159905040/sizes/l/in/photolist-aJF3y6-dQ42h5-fhpHJ2-9gWo4F-dTurMS-9apVs5-9eTG9e-9dw4E4-9arK23-aomDiL-bUGojC-aiC8fV-efcTeS-92UwLu-9dAzMa-92aDSn-8JAWzS-9nWuyB-9eXy7J-cjanes-eoaXib-fhpHKZ-9tNAGE/ Having said that - I just roughly measured your image above, and even on my high res screen it is more than twice life-size, so, as we used to say at Horwich: at 70mph, in a tunnel at midnight, no one will ever notice... Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Hi SS, The 4 SUB is quite some way off the painting stage, but it will be interesting to debate the colour. I originally painted a Kirk 2 BIL in a rather dark shade of green back in 2009. There was a lot of comment about it being too dark, but nobody could say exactly what shade of green BR(S) EMUs actually were in the late sixties. I remedied the 2 BIL's paint problem with a coat of P. Paints Late BR(S) EMU green with a touch of black in it. The colour came out very similar to the shade that Hornby use, although it wasn't copied. A great number of photos suggest that as time went on, the green used by BR went from quite a cheerful, bright shade to quite a dour darker hue - or perhaps that just reflected BR's bad fortune and decline. There are some photos which are just as you say, with multiple units in slightly different shades of green, so it can't all be down to colour film reproduction. Al the best, Colin Hi Colin. Re :- Post 1956 (Or thereabouts) BR(S) Green. There's an informative post by Robin Brasher, # 36, on this thread. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49901-correct-green-for-southern-region-coaches/page-2 Robin's using a mix of Humbrol Enamels, and the pic of the preserved prototype looks to be spot on. Years ago, I used a similar mix, using Precision Paints P124 B.R.(S) Electric Stock Green*. I initially tried lightening it slightly with Precision P78, Post-War Malachite, but considered the result too Yellow, so, I went for a 80 / 20 ratio mix with P140 B.R. Electric Blue. The result is shown in post #32, also here. * Not to be confused with P117/118 B.R. Multiple Unit Green, Pre & Post 1954, as these relate to DMUs. Or P125 B.R.(S) Coaching Stock Green (Semi-gloss), seen here. Still too dark, in my opinion. More akin to Bachmann's latest BR(S) Coaching Stock Green. All the best, Frank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 (edited) I can remember the green but for the life of me i coudn't describe it, i woudn't say it was dull though, middle to dark green. Maybe what we should do is to post photos on here of the different shades and work from there. The two photos shown above isn't it though, not to mention the shine. If i had to start somewhere i would do it with British racing green, this is very close, if not it, see photo below, notice how the green changes it's shade on the side due to the light. Edited October 12, 2013 by Tigermoth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 Colin, Many thanks for this - something of a work of art in itself - and reminder to us all that these things don't "just happen": a bit of forethought and planning is a big help! Smoke and mirrors eh... ??? The socket on the far right is the power jumper dummy receptacle and I think you are right - its front should be almost a half-cylinder as the plug which goes in there is circular - the power jumper socket on the other side (the one in the middle of the left hand group) is "squarer" only because the top part of it contains the termination for the line cable to the power jumper connection box. However, dare I also suggest that the bottom half of this should also be a bit "rounded" as well? By contrast, the one next to it (middle of the RH group) is the control jumper socket and the plug which goes in here is rectangular in plan - hence a "square" box for the socket (and the dummy). http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/7159905040/sizes/l/in/photolist-aJF3y6-dQ42h5-fhpHJ2-9gWo4F-dTurMS-9apVs5-9eTG9e-9dw4E4-9arK23-aomDiL-bUGojC-aiC8fV-efcTeS-92UwLu-9dAzMa-92aDSn-8JAWzS-9nWuyB-9eXy7J-cjanes-eoaXib-fhpHKZ-9tNAGE/ Having said that - I just roughly measured your image above, and even on my high res screen it is more than twice life-size, so, as we used to say at Horwich: at 70mph, in a tunnel at midnight, no one will ever notice... Best wishes, Hi Howard, Thanks for the confirmation and otherwise of the shape of the MU sockets. I shall have another go at the far r/h dummy receptacles - they looked wrong as soon as I put them on! There are four tiny plugs which are not shown fitted into the sockets, which does alter the appearance of even the correctly shaped parts. These plugs will go on the MU cables to the left and right. I have some very thin black elastic which could prove a better choice of material than my usual 0.5mm plastic rod. The image in the link is interesting: the units have different forms of conduit on the l/h side running down to the solebar - one is straight the other is cranked. Luckily there is a good photo to be seen of the front of a motor coach from 4377 and it had the conduit running straight down like the unit on the left in your linked image. Confusingly, this photo of 4377 can be found in David Brown's Southern Electric Vol. II (sic) p.97, taken at the time that the motor coaches were running with 4 LAV 2932. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 (edited) Hi Colin. Re :- Post 1956 (Or thereabouts) BR(S) Green. There's an informative post by Robin Brasher, # 36, on this thread. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49901-correct-green-for-southern-region-coaches/page-2 Robin's using a mix of Humbrol Enamels, and the pic of the preserved prototype looks to be spot on. Years ago, I used a similar mix, using Precision Paints P124 B.R.(S) Electric Stock Green*. I initially tried lightening it slightly with Precision P78, Post-War Malachite, but considered the result too Yellow, so, I went for a 80 / 20 ratio mix with P140 B.R. Electric Blue. The result is shown in post #32, also here. P1310774.jpg * Not to be confused with P117/118 B.R. Multiple Unit Green, Pre & Post 1954, as these relate to DMUs. Or P125 B.R.(S) Coaching Stock Green (Semi-gloss), seen here. P1310804 (2).jpg Still too dark, in my opinion. More akin to Bachmann's latest BR(S) Coaching Stock Green. All the best, Frank. Hi Frank, I shall try that mix of blue and green if I can persuade the local model shop to get me tin. Shots of the 4 SUBs still soldiering on into the 70's sporting the green livery seem to look quite dark and dingy - certainly not a per the PP colour P124 straight out of the tin. All the best, Colin Edited October 12, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 (edited) I can remember the green but for the life of me i coudn't describe it, i woudn't say it was dull though, middle to dark green. Maybe what we should do is to post photos on here of the different shades and work from there. The two photos shown above isn't it though, not to mention the shine. If i had to start somewhere i would do it with British racing green, this is very close, if not it, see photo below, notice how the green changes it's shade on the side due to the light. Hi Tigermoth, You are in the same boat a the rest of us in recalling the colour but not being able to accurately describe it! Added to that - and I do not infer that any correspondents to this topic are so afflicted, but a fair proportion of men have difficulty distinguishing shades in the green spectrum (and red too, but we are not modelling the LMS here!). It could be the reason why there are so many interpretations of this elusive shade of green. (To be balanced, in my work experience, women tend to have more trouble with blues.) The car is very nice, but I wouldn't say it was identical to BR(S) EMU green, which definitely does have a touch of blue in it. But that is just my opinion, using my eyes and possibly the rendition of your photo on my monitor. All the best, Colin Edited October 12, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 (edited) Hi Tigermoth, You are in the same boat a the rest of us in recalling the colour but not being able to accurately describe it! Added to that - and I do not infer that any correspondents to this topic are so afflicted, but a fair proportion of men have difficulty distinguishing shades in the green spectrum (and red too, but we are not modelling the LMS here!). It could be the reason why there are so many interpretations of this elusive shade of green. (To be balanced, in my work experience, women tend to have more trouble with blues.) The car is very nice, but I wouldn't say it was identical to BR(S) EMU green, which definitely does have a touch of blue in it. But that is just my opinion, using my eyes and possibly the rendition of your photo on my monitor. All the best, Colin You maybe right but the colour of the door is so close to how i remember the green of the BILS/HALS back in 69, albeit slightly lighter or darker, worn or not, that i had to post it. Edited October 12, 2013 by Tigermoth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 You maybe right but the colour of the door is so close to how i remember the green of the BILS/HALS back in 69, albeit slightly lighter or darker, worn or not, that i had to post it. Yes, I didn't mean any criticism of your opinion Tigermoth. That car makes me green with envy though! Verdantly yours, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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