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4 SUB Unit 4377, Bulleid 2 HAP upgrade - plus all matters third rail.


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I reckon Colin ought to re-name his workshop 'Newhaven Park Carriage and Wagon Works'.

 

His output must be catching up with that of both Easleigh and Lancing, combined.

 

p.s. I don't need m' coat, the sun's out !

Hi Frank,

 

For all my ramblings over the past four years, the total output doesn't amount to a great number of models completed.  In fact the figure is only 16 coaches, including the part scratch-built  4 CIG, but excluding the Horribly 2 BIL and several kit-built EMUs.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

(Sorry for misspelling your name Frank!)

Edited by Colin parks
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HI

 

In one of the Model Railway Constructors was an article on Coach Construction that showed how to make a punch and die for punching out windows. I can't remember what issue it was (fairly sure it was a February one and would be from 1979 onwards as I had the magazine each month then). I also think that it was used on 10thou plasticard.

 

I have a punch and die set for 0.6mm to 4mm discs and this will cut 20thou plasticard but then the area of the disc is nothing like the size of a window.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Hi Paul,

 

Yes, it's a bit like the search for the Holy Grail for modellers isn't it?  If only there was an easy way to cut windows.  From past experience, I feel that distortion could be a problem when punching plastic sheet, as the surrounding area has to be very well supported while the punching takes place. 

 

The 4 SUB windows are set close together, unlike the Lam Models Bulleid coach sides that Ceptic has shown us in post #42.  A punch would also have to be in the right place every time, so registration of the side and punch is crucial.  With the traditional knife & ruler  method,  at least the opening can be worked outwards until the correct size is achieved.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

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Hi Paul,

 

Yes, it's a bit like the search for the Holy Grail for modellers isn't it?  If only there was an easy way to cut windows.  From past experience, I feel that distortion could be a problem when punching plastic sheet, as the surrounding area has to be very well supported while the punching takes place. 

 

The 4 SUB windows are set close together, unlike the Lam Models Bulleid coach sides that Ceptic has shown us in post #42.  A punch would also have to be in the right place every time, so registration of the side and punch is crucial.  With the traditional knife & ruler  method,  at least the opening can be worked outwards until the correct size is achieved.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Hi Colin

 

Found it

http://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/magazine/mrc/1979februaryv46n538.php

 

From memory the surrounding area is supported by the base of the punch. You are quite right about the registration part but you could arrange it so that the die had a bottom edge that you could butt the side upto to ensure consistent hieght then all you need to worry about is the horizontal spacing.

 

This is the type I have and produces no distortion around the edges of the hole or the disk.

http://www.historexagents.com/shop/tips_punch.php

 

Cheers

 

Paul

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When I was in the 'yard as a boilermaker we used to use a punch and die on steel plate up to  3/8 inch thick. The thicker it was the rougher the finish got. They were either square holes with round corners up to an inch square or inch dia. The machine I believe disappeared under elf an safety, as it could also cut steel bar up to 3/4 inch dia and some idiot stuck his finger in one of the holes 1/2 or 5/8 and chopped the end of his finger off :banghead:  . Obviously there was no guard otherwise you couldn't get the plate or bar in it.

 

SS

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Howard, Colin and all watchers of this thread.

 

Colin, I hope you don't mind me answering a PM from HAB (Howard) re 4Sub drawings, in which he asked if I had any with full size dimensions.

 

I think the answer may be of interest to others.

 

I have the odd drawing but nothing which is fully dimensioned and really not much use.

 

However, are you aware of the drawings in the 'Bulleid Coaches in 4mm Scale' by Model Railway Constructor. It has full dimensions which I believe to be accurate.

 

It was Edited by S W Stevens-Stratten. As he is a good friend, I could ask him if I could reproduce a copy of the coach end with dimensions.

 

Dave

  Dave,

 

This sounds like a good plan!  Looking forward to a psotive response from S.W  S-S.  I have a pretty full set of MRCs, but they are in the same place as Colin's...

 

Many thanks and Best Wishes,

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Hi Colin

 

I made a sucessful set of punches for Mk1 coach windows back in the 80s. I too used 10 thou plastic card and the "cut" was very good. The down side was the wriggly sides when I glued them on to RTR bodies and making the sliding vents out of micro strip. The skill is making the punch and die with a minimum of clearance. From memory the die plates were 1/8 in plate and the punch 1/4in.

 

I no longer have any of the coaches or the punch sets.

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This subject has gone a bit quiet tonight!

 

So here are some piccies to be getting on with.

 

Colin.

 

Make sure you ask me if you are stuck on anything. I have so many that these are just scraping the surface and I've picked them as I think they are probably what you might need.

 

Don't forget. Ask!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post-509-0-59991700-1378326016.jpg

 

post-509-0-13873600-1378326017.jpg

 

post-509-0-13556100-1378326016.jpg

 

post-509-0-56954500-1378326082.jpg

 

post-509-0-14808900-1378326083.jpg

 

post-509-0-96307200-1378326083.jpg

 

post-509-0-81207500-1378326084.jpg

 

post-509-0-42598400-1378326085.jpg

 

post-509-0-01367600-1378326082.jpg

 

post-509-0-40857900-1378326081.jpg

 

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Hi Colin

 

Found it

http://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/magazine/mrc/1979februaryv46n538.php

 

From memory the surrounding area is supported by the base of the punch. You are quite right about the registration part but you could arrange it so that the die had a bottom edge that you could butt the side upto to ensure consistent hieght then all you need to worry about is the horizontal spacing.

 

This is the type I have and produces no distortion around the edges of the hole or the disk.

http://www.historexagents.com/shop/tips_punch.php

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Thanks for the links Paul. Those links would be good reference for making punches.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Edited by Colin parks
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Hi Colin

 

I made a sucessful set of punches for Mk1 coach windows back in the 80s. I too used 10 thou plastic card and the "cut" was very good. The down side was the wriggly sides when I glued them on to RTR bodies and making the sliding vents out of micro strip. The skill is making the punch and die with a minimum of clearance. From memory the die plates were 1/8 in plate and the punch 1/4in.

 

I no longer have any of the coaches or the punch sets.

Hi Clive,

 

How did you position the punches for accurate spacing of the windows?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

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Thanks for all those photos Dave.

 

The inner end and roof shots will be most helpful in the coming weeks. I'm sorry it's gone quiet tonight, but I am actually starting on the building work. The Hornby bogies are having brass bearings installed so the motor bogie will not have to strain too much. Fitting bearings doesn't make for exciting pictures!

 

All the best and feel free to add any photos you like. It will be a benefit to others too I'm sure.

 

Colin

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When I was in the 'yard as a boilermaker we used to use a punch and die on steel plate up to  3/8 inch thick. The thicker it was the rougher the finish got. They were either square holes with round corners up to an inch square or inch dia. The machine I believe disappeared under elf an safety, as it could also cut steel bar up to 3/4 inch dia and some idiot stuck his finger in one of the holes 1/2 or 5/8 and chopped the end of his finger off :banghead:  . Obviously there was no guard otherwise you couldn't get the plate or bar in it.

 

SS

Same 'ere,......

 

....Now.going,... completely....Off Topic.

 

This was my work-station for many a year. Two 125 ton per sq in.on a 12 in. dia. hydraulic ram Presses. Known as 'Finlays'. Built in Newport, S. Wales.

One with a 2' - 6" deep, throat*, used for piercing / punching holes, up to 5" dia. in 1/4 pla plate, or, on a reducing formula, the smaller the hole, the thicker the plate.

The other had a 36" throat,  seen here,

 

post-7009-0-37313000-1378326768_thumb.jpg

 

This was used for folding / forming plate. The wider the 'Vee' block, the thicker the plate. Up to 1 1/4" (32mm.) thick, on some jobs.

 

*The point of this post is,...some of us have had a somewhat satisfying employment, lasting  for many a day, using their accumulated skills to provide, ...These days, it seems, the chance of full time employment is being steadfastly eroded. 

 

Like Colin, I used to get home, and think 'I've had enough of the heavy stuff....What can I do, to improve British railway modelling ?

 

I turned to drawing,...my favourite..

 

Regards and All the best.

 

 * Apologies for that expression..., this being a more technical description...in the circumstances

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Many thanks Dave,

 

Superb photos, superb detail.

 

All the best.

 

Frank.

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Same 'ere,......

 

....Now.going,... completely....Off Topic.

 

This was my work-station for many a year. Two 125 ton per sq in.on a 12 in. dia. hydraulic ram Presses. Known as 'Finlays'. Built in Newport, S. Wales.

One with a 2' - 6" deep, throat*, used for piercing / punching holes, up to 5" dia. in 1/4 pla plate, or, on a reducing formula, the smaller the hole, the thicker the plate.

The other had a 36" throat,  seen here,

 

attachicon.gifFrank's corner (11) Finlay fitted with 1 .75 rad. folding blade.jpg

 

This was used for folding / forming plate. The wider the 'Vee' block, the thicker the plate. Up to 1 1/4" (32mm.) thick, on some jobs.

 

*The point of this post is,...some of us have had a somewhat satisfying employment, lasting  for many a day, using their accumulated skills to provide, ...These days, it seems, the chance of full time employment is being steadfastly eroded. 

 

Like Colin, I used to get home, and think 'I've had enough of the heavy stuff....What can I do, to improve British railway modelling ?

 

I turned to drawing,...my favourite..

 

Regards and All the best.

 

 * Apologies for that expression..., this being a more technical description...in the circumstances

 

 

We only had a 120 ton/sq inch double acting press (real Hydraulic, it used water and a set of weights). It had two main tasks, swaging boiler tubes, and pressing new tyres on to Mercury (small forward cab pick up) wheel hubs.

 

SS

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Looking at this pic ...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5431211853/in/photolist-aJF3y6-dQ42h5-fhpHJ2-9gWo4F-dTurMS-9apVs5-9eTG9e-9dw4E4-9arK23-aomDiL-bUGojC-aiC8fV-efcTeS-92UwLu-9dAzMa-92aDSn-8JAWzS-9nWuyB-9eXy7J-cjanes-eoaXib-fhpHKZ-9tNAGE/

 

... a bit more closely, make me think that 4129 would be a good candidate for those of us not as used to these kinds of projects as Colin - the caption says why!

 

 

Colin, Please don't imagine that pics of bearings going into bogies are uninteresting - I sure I am not the only one who would be interested in what you are doing below the solebar (so to speak).

 

Best wishes,

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Looking at this pic ...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5431211853/in/photolist-aJF3y6-dQ42h5-fhpHJ2-9gWo4F-dTurMS-9apVs5-9eTG9e-9dw4E4-9arK23-aomDiL-bUGojC-aiC8fV-efcTeS-92UwLu-9dAzMa-92aDSn-8JAWzS-9nWuyB-9eXy7J-cjanes-eoaXib-fhpHKZ-9tNAGE/

 

... a bit more closely, make me think that 4129 would be a good candidate for those of us not as used to these kinds of projects as Colin - the caption says why!

 

 

Colin, Please don't imagine that pics of bearings going into bogies are uninteresting - I sure I am not the only one who would be interested in what you are doing below the solebar (so to speak).

 

Best wishes,

Hi Howard,

 

That photo of 4129 just goes to show that it's OK for the prototype, but can you imagine trying to get away with an uneven cab front like that on a model?!

 

Mind you I did nearly achieve the same effect with a 4 COR side and a spilt bottle of solvent. (It is not recommended though.)

 

All the best,

 

Colin

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Just as Howard was requesting photos of the work on the 4 SUB's nether regions, I do have a little update to share. I hope you can see that it wasn't a case of Parks going on about detail differences that are undetectable to everyone else. (This time.)

 

 

post-8139-0-63577500-1378488701_thumb.jpg

 

This shows two of the trusses made last night, but in need of some tidying up of the solder work. The top truss is for one of the motor coaches and the lower one is going under a trailer coach. The difference between the two is quite apparent and thanks to Dasatcopthorne for his measurements. I confess the trusses' square section is a little too heavy, but hey! - it's design clever.

 

 

Colin

Edited by Colin parks
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Hi Colin,

 

I didn't realise that the underframe trusses were of different sizes until I read this post. A bit late for mine now! Dave's photos posted earlier are brilliant, they show that whoever did the artwork for Blacksmith really new what they were doing. Looking forward to more updates.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

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Hi Colin,

 

I didn't realise that the underframe trusses were of different sizes until I read this post. A bit late for mine now! Dave's photos posted earlier are brilliant, they show that whoever did the artwork for Blacksmith really new what they were doing. Looking forward to more updates.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

Hi Ian,

 

It is not the case that all 4 SUB trailers had the wider spaced queenposts. It is a little more complicated than that:

 

The trussing issue has never been addressed clearly. Your chosen unit, 4754 had one trailer built on a reclaimed chassis, namely S 9034 S. Coincidentally or not, you have chosen the unit featured in the lower photo on the cover of 'A 4 SUB Story'! If you look closely at that picture, the leading trailer coach has the wider spaced type of truss. This must be TS S 10257 S. It is followed by TSO S 9034 S, built on the underframe of an old trailer composite that ran in unit 1419 with bodywork rebuilt from two SER coaches, dating from 1925.

 

As a rule of thumb, if a 4 SUB trailer has a four-figure running number i.e. 9034, then it is going to have the short-spaced trussing. It will be of no consolation, but I have got the underframe wrong on my Tin HAL too. I will never trust drawings unsupported by photographic evidence again!

 

(To work out what went where required reference to the aforementioned book.)

 

All the best,

 

Colin

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Hi Colin,

 

Complete coincidence on my part. As it is only one coach I may redo it in the future. This is one of those little things that every time I look at the model I will be concious of. I have just ordered myself a copy of the 4Sub story, you can't have too many EMU books!! I don't think there are too many I haven't got now.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

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Hi Colin,

 

Complete coincidence on my part. As it is only one coach I may redo it in the future. This is one of those little things that every time I look at the model I will be concious of. I have just ordered myself a copy of the 4Sub story, you can't have too many EMU books!! I don't think there are too many I haven't got now.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

Hi Ian,

 

Don't damage the coach for the sake of the trusses! I am going to have a look at the trailer of the Tin HAL with a view to changing it one day (have run out of brass at the moment).

 

The book will give you all the information you need on formations and running numbers for each and every 4 SUB unit. This particular information is not included in David Brown's more recent 'Southern Electric Vol. I' for some reason, although it does have many other useful facts and figures.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

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Gents,

 

Some while ago we discussed the Bullied Profile and Dave dasatcopthorne suggested the Model Railway Constructor drawings. Well, a brief rummage turned up my copy of the MRC for January 1967 which contains the end profiles.

 

[Colin:- when you find yours, you will find a very interesting series of articles starting on page 6]  

 

The drawing is for the loco hauled vehicles, but includes a note that it was "compatible with the EMU vehicles produced a year earlier".

 

Unfortunately, it not fully dimensioned (as it is taken from the Diagram, which gives the finished dimensions but not how to construct them) but I have had a go at creating what I think would be correct for 4mm.  Here is the outcome (apologies for the ropey dimensioning - I don't normally use my CAD prog for such things...)

 

post-11380-0-75746200-1378563227_thumb.jpg

 

I have left the dimensions to 2 places of decimals - well done if you can build to 1/100th of a mil!

 

I would welcome comments, should any one have any better info, before I commit the outcome to hardware...

 

 

Edit:- just to mention that this gives a max. width over body of a scale 9', which is 9' 3" over handles - I trust that sounds correct!!!

 

Best wishes,

Edited by HAB
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If it's Mk1 trusses that's needed, I should have some that I'll be removing from my Mk1's when I finally my Trans - Pennine set on the way.

 

It will happen, oh yes.....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Thanks for the offer Sean, but these trusses are of the relatively simple traditional variety. Making a new unit is easy enough. Getting out the old one, permanently attached to the floor and solebars with copious amounts of superglue is a different matter!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

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