Lner / Southern joint station?

[Spannerman]

Hi everybody

 

Was there ever a station where the LNER and Southern regions met? Or where the regions operated in a close enough proximity to have feasibly put an exchange.

 

I ask as I have a scheme for a two level exchange station in mind, possibly in the east London area where I could run my favourite loco's which are mainly Eastern and Southern. Imagine a spam can and A4 together;-).

 

Obviously I could just go completely imaginary but it would be great to either recreate or use a real area as starting point,unless of course it's completely ridiculous

 

Although my knowledge is limited I'm quite happy to do the research, but hopefully the great members on here will be able to point me in some direction.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Nik

Edited September 9, 2013 by Spannerman

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Looking at the RCH Railway Atlas of 1904 - which pretty much shows the maximum extent of the UK pre-group railway system - the only possible contact between pre-group companies which are going to are going to finish up in the LNER and SR groups, may be the GER and SECR at Fenchurch Street. But then again the apparent connection may be a limitation forced on the cartographer by the small scale of the mapping.

 

A fun scheme for a grand grand Central London exchange station is one I have often kicked about. Had that complete lunatic / inspired visionary (delete according to taste) Sir Edward Watkin of the GCR (and whom I believe was at one time on the SECR board) succeeded with his ambition of a continental loading gauge route from Central England to a Channel tunnel connection with the continent, then a GCR/SECR station in London would not be impossible

[Ravenser]

Looking at the RCH Railway Atlas of 1904 - which pretty much shows the maximum extent of the UK pre-group railway system - the only possible contact between pre-group companies which are going to are going to finish up in the LNER and SR groups, may be the GER and SECR at Fenchurch Street. But then again the apparent connection may be a limitation forced on the cartographer by the small scale of the mapping.

 

A fun scheme for a grand grand Central London exchange station is one I have often kicked about. Had that complete lunatic / inspired visionary (delete according to taste) Sir Edward Watkin of the GCR (and whom I believe was at one time on the SECR board) succeeded with his ambition of a continental loading gauge route from Central England to a Channel tunnel connection with the continent, then a GCR/SECR station in London would not be impossible

 

Dreadful thought - presumably it would have been Farringdon , as a joint GC/Met/SER operation...

[Clive Mortimore]

New Cross, SCER and LBSCR stations. Here they met with the East London Railway which was a joint line owned by the SCER, LBSCR, Met Rly and the GER. ER locos were seen up to the 1960s when the freight trains were routed around London not through the tunnel.

 

The LBSCR station is now called New Cross Gate.

[Gwiwer]

New Cross and the yards around Fenchurch Street are the only locations that come to my mind.  All the pre-grouping companies had their own yards (or running rights into someone else's) in order to bring freight to London, much of it coal.

[Clive Mortimore]

Dreadful thought - presumably it would have been Farringdon , as a joint GC/Met/SER operation...

And/or Baker Street to the joint Met/GCR line.

[bbishop]

Not Fenchurch Street but rather Liverpool Street, which was the northern access of the East London Line, jointly owned by the Great Eastern, London Brighton & South Coast, London Chatham & Dover, South Eastern, Metropolitan and Metropolitan District.  Excursion trains from the north eastern suburbs used the East London  line in the 1950s, hauled from Liverpool Street to New Cross (LBSC) by a Buckjumper.  The GER had a goods yard at New Cross (LBSC).

 

The city branch of the London Chatham & Dover was financed by various other companies, including the London & South Western and the Great Northern, in return for running rights.  Until the Waterloo & City was built, the LSWR had an intensive commuter service to Ludgate Hill (this service still exists within the Thameslink services) and the GNR ran both passenger and freight services via the widened lines.

 

Bill

[pete_mcfarlane]

Before the Great War there were SECR services to GNR stations in North London, via Ludgate Hill, the Widened lines and Kings Cross. There were also SECR services to Moorgate, alongside the Midland and GNR ones.

 

All of these were suburban services. After WW1 the only through traffic would have been freight. I think the only place to see SR and LNER express power together was the GCR main line, where some Southern locos worked cross country trains via Oxford.

[phil-b259]

Unfortunately the geography of the UK means the only places the LNER and SR came together was the East London Line at Liverpool St and the widened lines at Faringdon - not locations acesable by A4s or Builled Pacifics.

 

Oxford, while being GWR teratory indeed a favoured location for the swapping of SR and LNER motive power never saw the A4s on a regular basis due to their concentration on the ECML.

 

So basically the upshot of this is if you want to mix A4s and Builled Pacifics then the model cannot reflect a real prototype because one never has exsisted.

 

However like many on here, I agree with the sentiment that it's your railway and if it provides you with enjoyment then go with it.

Edited September 10, 2013 by phil-b259

[Gwiwer]

Under Rule 1 it is always possible to state that the locomotive exchanges have been continued and that Bulleids are running alongside A4s at you location of choice

[Oldddudders]

 The GER had a goods yard at New Cross (LBSC).

 

 

Whereabouts at NX was this, Bill? The 1901 LBSCR map doesn't show it, although it acknowledges a comparable facility at Knights Hill (LNWR).

[The Stationmaster]

Here is a complete list as at 1928  -

 

LNER (ex GNR) over SR -

 

Lavender Hill Jcn - Feltham

Cambria Road Jcn - Cow Lane Jcn

Factory Jcn - Battersea Yd

Cow Lane Jcn - Crystal Palace

Loughborough Jcn - Cambria Rd Jcn

 

West Street Jcn and places within 15 miles of Earl St Jcn (ex SECR)

 

LNER (ex GER) over SR

New Cross E.L. Jcn and New Cross Gate Station and ex GER depot

New Cross E.L. Jcn and Hither Green Sdgs

 

SR (exSECR) over LNER

King's Cross Jcn and King's Cross Station  (I believe at one time the SECR ran further north on the GNR but that power had lapsed by the late 1920s).

 

 

Note some of the above are for passenger trains and some are for freight while a few are for both.

[bbishop]

Whereabouts at NX was this, Bill? The 1901 LBSCR map doesn't show it, although it acknowledges a comparable facility at Knights Hill (LNWR).

According to my Railway Junction Diagrams (Ian Allan, undated) it's a siding to the north east of New Cross (LBSC).  The sidings off the East London were LBSC property and it took a double kick back to get to the GER one.

 

Also don't forget the LNWR and Midland joint sidings at Peckham Rye.

 

Bill

[bbishop]

Mike, 

 

The GNR had sidings at Brockley on the Greenwich Park line, coming off running rights at Nunhead?  Whilst closed to passengers in 1917, I'm guessing the freight facilities were still open and, of course, it was re-opened (1929?) over the infamous fly-over to Lewisham.

 

Also the LNER ran freight trains via the widened lines, Metropolitan Junc., London Bridge to Hither Green.  Off running rights between Blackfriars and New Cross (SECR)?

 

Bill

[The Lurker]

Whereabouts at NX was this, Bill? The 1901 LBSCR map doesn't show it, although it acknowledges a comparable facility at Knights Hill (LNWR).

If I have linked this correctly, the railway clearing house map (linked from wikipedia) shows the GER siding

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bricklayers_Arms_%26_New_Cross,_Midhurst_RJD_91.jpg

[Oldddudders]

If I have linked this correctly, the railway clearing house map (linked from wikipedia) shows the GER siding

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bricklayers_Arms_%26_New_Cross,_Midhurst_RJD_91.jpg

Link worked fine, thanks. No, the LBSCR diagram makes no mention. I suspect that is because it is a Table of Distances between stations and junctions, and so only shows other railways where they diverge from the LBCSR line. In this case, as Bill says, the siding is a kickback from the LBSC sidings, so isn't shown. With a double-shunt to serve the siding it must have been a bit of a pig.

[Armchair Modeller]

The GCR was built to provide through services to the Continent via the Channel Tunnel. Not sure of the detail of how it was supposed to connect together through London, but surely that idea has the most potential?

[bbishop]

Unfortunately the geography of the UK means the only places the LNER and SR came together was the East London Line at Liverpool St and the widened lines at Faringdon - not locations acesable by A4s or Builled Pacifics.

 

Oxford, while being GWR teratory indeed a favoured location for the swapping of SR and LNER motive power never saw the A4s on a regular basis due to their concentration on the ECML.

 

So basically the upshot of this is if you want to mix A4s and Builled Pacifics then the model cannot reflect a real prototype because one never has exsisted.

 

However like many on here, I agree with the sentiment that it's your railway and if it provides you with enjoyment then go with it.

How about the 1948 locomotive exchanges?

 

Bill

[DavidB-AU]

Under Rule 1 you could imagine a tunnel or bridge across the Thames somewhere around Woolwich, or possibly between Gravesend and Tilbury.

 

Cheers

David

[bbishop]

The GCR was built to provide through services to the Continent via the Channel Tunnel. Not sure of the detail of how it was supposed to connect together through London, but surely that idea has the most potential?

No, the London extension was built to move coal from the Notts coalfield to the capital.  Building it to the Berne gauge facilitated the use of continental stock but I don't think there was serious planning on how to get from (say) Neasden to Folkestone.

 

Bill

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There is another deeply fictional way. Imagine a BR with a rational management team, free of all 'company' prejudice. In redeveloping the national network from coal fired to diesel or electric traction, they redistribute the available traction; concentrating the coal fired traction on coal field districts as the Southern half of the country is converted to diesel or electric traction. Instead of scrapping wide firebox locos with years of life in them, these were cascaded into areas with overmuch small firebox traction, eliminating all the uneconomic double heading.

[Oldddudders]

No, the London extension was built to move coal from the Notts coalfield to the capital.  Building it to the Berne gauge facilitated the use of continental stock but I don't think there was serious planning on how to get from (say) Neasden to Folkestone.

 

Bill

I thought there was a tunnel mouth somewhere near Finchley Road?

[bbishop]

Not that fictional.  The Southern Railway considered the feasibility of maximising electrification, Beyer Peacocks on the non electrified main lines and a smattering of pre-Grouping (Woolies, Hs, M7s) on the branch lines.  The came along WW2 and Bulleid, with the plan to replace the M7s with the Leaders!  Overkill?

 

Also I believe there was a plan to transfer Duchesses to the LSWR line early 1960s, but too many platform edges to trim back.

 

Bill

I thought there was a tunnel mouth somewhere near Finchley Road?

London side of Neasden.

 

Bill

[Armchair Modeller]

No, the London extension was built to move coal from the Notts coalfield to the capital.  Building it to the Berne gauge facilitated the use of continental stock but I don't think there was serious planning on how to get from (say) Neasden to Folkestone.

 

Bill

 

Well, they started building the Channel Tunnel, so one hopes someone was thinking about the link. Since Watkin had involvement in both the SER and the GCR, I assume it was just a high speed link between the two, somewhere in or around London that was required?

[chaz]

At Kensington Olympia (originally called Adison Road), in West London it was possible to see locos from all of the big four during the course of a day.

An illustrated article in "British RailwaysIllustrated Annual #3" has photos showing the following classes...

 

SR - H 0-4-4T

LNER - B1 4-6-0 (the caption for one of the B1 photos notes that it had taken over the train from 34104 on a Margate-Leicester working)

SR - M7 0-4-4T

SR - N 2-6-0

LMS - 5MT 4-6-0

SR - K 2-6-0

SR - H2 4-4-2

GWR - 94XX 0-6-0PT

GWR - Hall

LMS - G2 0-8-0

GWR - Castle

SR - C2X - 0-6-0

 

A fascinating mix but I would think an A4 most unlikely - however there's always the possibility of a special!

 

Hope that's some help.

 

Chaz