National Coal Board - Royd Hall Drift & Royal Oak Sidings.

[5050]

Thanks, Giles.

 

Today I have been doing the tedious job of sawing and milling more brass H-section for the screens building. So far I've used about 8 metres of the stuff and now the frame is becoming too large for the soldering plate. It's tricky trying to keep everything square and as it grows more deviation is creeping in. Some parts will have to be fixed with Araldite as some of the wall panels (that will be brick embossed plasticard, backed with card) need to be slotted in the columns before cross pieces are fitted above them.

 

By 'eck Dave, that's a big'un!  I reckon 'Enigma Engineering' would fit inside it!  Are the baseboards strong enough to support the weight!

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ruston

[Ruston]

I think the baseboard will cope. I've just been in the shed adding more to this construction and I've run out of brass section  - again! I was going to have to take a break from it anyway - there's only so much sawing, milling and filing that can be done before wanting to slit one's wrists...

 

I've got a tubeplate to fit inside an Ixion Manning Wardle for a bit of light relief.

[Ruston]

A little more has been done to the exterior of the building and an experiment in the internals is in progress.

 

PHOTO UNAVAILABLE THANKS TO PHOTOBUCKET MUPPETS

 

The hopper will be able to hold enough coal to fill 4 16-tonners. It's a simple card construction, mounted on blocks of insulation foam and springs. The spout has a cross section of about 1 sq. cm. The weight of coal pressing into the narrow spout and the shallow gradient of it seem to be enough to allow the coal to stay put until the end is lightly tapped with the end of a pen. Tomorrow I will fix a small electric motor, with an eccentric weight, to try it properly. I'm hoping the foam and springs will insulate the rest of the structure from the vibrations of the one hopper so as not to cause the 3 other hoppers that will eventually be fitted to drop their loads.

 

PHOTO UNAVAILABLE THANKS TO PHOTOBUCKET MUPPETS

Edited August 11, 2017 by Ruston

[skipepsi]

I remember buildings as being blue and brick was there a time when they were green? 

[Ruston]

I remember buildings as being blue and brick was there a time when they were green? 

I've no idea and, to be honest, I hadn't given it any thought. I wanted green so I painted it green but flicking through some of my collection of Irwell Press 'Industrial Railways In Colour' shows the metalwork on pit buildings at various locations to be blues, greens and reds.

[skipepsi]

I've no idea and, to be honest, I hadn't given it any thought. I wanted green so I painted it green but flicking through some of my collection of Irwell Press 'Industrial Railways In Colour' shows the metalwork on pit buildings at various locations to be blues, greens and reds.

Could have been a Barnsley area thing or further south.

[Paragon]

Bickershaw colliery, albeit over t' Pennines in Lancashire, had green painted steel framework around their buildings...

Paragon

[PGH]

The painting of structures within the NCB appears to have been up to individual areas and there doesn't seem to have been a common national scheme.  Some examples are:

 

 

Frances Colliery (Scottish North Area) - red steelwork

 

 

 

Bedlay Colliery (Scottish North Area) - a modernised colliery with white steelwork

 

 

 

Polkemmet Colliery (Scottish South Area) - light green steelwork and white painted brickwork

 

 

Light blue painted steelwork was also quite common.  At a guess I would say that light green was perhaps the colour most widely used.

Edited October 15, 2018 by PGH

[Ruston]

Today I fixed a 3-volt motor to the hopper. To this I added a flywheel with a flat milled on one side so as to cause vibration. It isn't wired up properly yet and to power it I held the two wires from to motor onto a 1.5v battery. It was rather noisy too, so I want to have some form of speed control so I can find a speed at which the motor will run and operate the hopper but without being so noisy. I'm thinking of getting an old model railway controller. The other idea is to take the DCC chip from the next loco that I convert to DCC sound and then I can run the hopper from the DCC controller and set the appropriate CV to restrict the upper voltage limit to protect the motor.

 

The first trial used crushed coal but some pieces were too big and jammed in the spout so I had to crush and sieve it all again. The next trial worked well with the coal that was now up to 3/16ths of an inch and a wagon was filled in about a minute. The trial showed that I had underestimated the capacity of the hopper and it will probably hold 6 wagons worth.

 

After the crushing and sieving I was left with a lot of sub-1mm particles, which I thought would look OK as coal for boilers or power stations so the hopper was refilled with this.

Apart from the filling process creating a lot of dust, the hopper wouldn't work with such fine material. It just seemed to settle and gum the spout up. I have decided to add the fine coal and dust to my ballast and find an alternative or maybe not use such small sizes.

 

I have a jar of Carr's coal which has grain sizes smaller than the "large" real coal and so I tried this. Whilst it works well in the hopper it is very heavy. One 16-tonner holds about 300g of the stuff! I don't think that's going to do the motors on my locos much good and the 'coal' is attracted to magnets, which isn't a good idea around motors in case of spillage. Does anyone know what this stuff is made of? Some kind of steel slag, perhaps?

 

I suppose the best thing to do would be to get some more coal and crush it and put it through sieves with different hole sizes but where I will find such things with 2mm and 2mm holes  I have no idea.

 

Other things I have learned from these trials are that lighting under the screens building will be essential and that great care must be taken when shunting the screens because locomotives will not fit under them!

[PGH]

I suppose the best thing to do would be to get some more coal and crush it and put it through sieves with different hole sizes but where I will find such things with 2mm and 2mm holes  I have no idea.

 

You can find mesh with 2mm holes here:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1mm-Thick-2mm-Round-Hole-3-5mm-Triangular-Pitch-SS304-Grade-Perforated-Mesh-MEGA/131890168847?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37567%26meid%3D0b635ab496bb406b8cf4e53583113ff5%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D131868393559

 

or if the link doesn't work put "aluminium mesh sheet" in the Ebay search box.

[wagonbasher]

Today I fixed a 3-volt motor to the hopper. To this I added a flywheel with a flat milled on one side so as to cause vibration. It isn't wired up properly yet and to power it I held the two wires from to motor onto a 1.5v battery. It was rather noisy too, so I want to have some form of speed control so I can find a speed at which the motor will run and operate the hopper but without being so noisy. I'm thinking of getting an old model railway controller. The other idea is to take the DCC chip from the next loco that I convert to DCC sound and then I can run the hopper from the DCC controller and set the appropriate CV to restrict the upper voltage limit to protect the motor.

 

The first trial used crushed coal but some pieces were too big and jammed in the spout so I had to crush and sieve it all again. The next trial worked well with the coal that was now up to 3/16ths of an inch and a wagon was filled in about a minute. The trial showed that I had underestimated the capacity of the hopper and it will probably hold 6 wagons worth.

 

After the crushing and sieving I was left with a lot of sub-1mm particles, which I thought would look OK as coal for boilers or power stations so the hopper was refilled with this.

Apart from the filling process creating a lot of dust, the hopper wouldn't work with such fine material. It just seemed to settle and gum the spout up. I have decided to add the fine coal and dust to my ballast and find an alternative or maybe not use such small sizes.

 

I have a jar of Carr's coal which has grain sizes smaller than the "large" real coal and so I tried this. Whilst it works well in the hopper it is very heavy. One 16-tonner holds about 300g of the stuff! I don't think that's going to do the motors on my locos much good and the 'coal' is attracted to magnets, which isn't a good idea around motors in case of spillage. Does anyone know what this stuff is made of? Some kind of steel slag, perhaps?

 

I suppose the best thing to do would be to get some more coal and crush it and put it through sieves with different hole sizes but where I will find such things with 2mm and 2mm holes I have no idea.

 

Other things I have learned from these trials are that lighting under the screens building will be essential and that great care must be taken when shunting the screens because locomotives will not fit under them!

New Haden colliery (4mm) uses the carrs coal, we hadnt noticed that it is attracted to magnets? We found in the early days that the coal you grade at 2mm today will be 'fines' tomorrow.

 

New Hayden is light blue steel work as per local pits we knew, foxfield and chaterly Whitfield (that's spelt wrong)

 

 

Andy

[PGH]

New Haden colliery (4mm) uses the carrs coal, we hadnt noticed that it is attracted to magnets? We found in the early days that the coal you grade at 2mm today will be 'fines' tomorrow.

 

Andy

 

I use real coal and don't find degradation a problem, although no doubt the amount of use on a home layout is quite different to that of an exhibition layout.  I use coal graded to a fairly even nominal size and periodically sieve out any fines.  The basic material is so cheap that its easy to replace if you have the facilities to crush and grade it.

 

I've just posted my methods of crushing and grading coal in my 'Moving Coal' thread which may be of interest.

[Michael Edge]

Today I fixed a 3-volt motor to the hopper. To this I added a flywheel with a flat milled on one side so as to cause vibration. It isn't wired up properly yet and to power it I held the two wires from to motor onto a 1.5v battery. It was rather noisy too, so I want to have some form of speed control so I can find a speed at which the motor will run and operate the hopper but without being so noisy. I'm thinking of getting an old model railway controller. The other idea is to take the DCC chip from the next loco that I convert to DCC sound and then I can run the hopper from the DCC controller and set the appropriate CV to restrict the upper voltage limit to protect the motor.

 

The first trial used crushed coal but some pieces were too big and jammed in the spout so I had to crush and sieve it all again. The next trial worked well with the coal that was now up to 3/16ths of an inch and a wagon was filled in about a minute. The trial showed that I had underestimated the capacity of the hopper and it will probably hold 6 wagons worth.

 

After the crushing and sieving I was left with a lot of sub-1mm particles, which I thought would look OK as coal for boilers or power stations so the hopper was refilled with this.

Apart from the filling process creating a lot of dust, the hopper wouldn't work with such fine material. It just seemed to settle and gum the spout up. I have decided to add the fine coal and dust to my ballast and find an alternative or maybe not use such small sizes.

 

I have a jar of Carr's coal which has grain sizes smaller than the "large" real coal and so I tried this. Whilst it works well in the hopper it is very heavy. One 16-tonner holds about 300g of the stuff! I don't think that's going to do the motors on my locos much good and the 'coal' is attracted to magnets, which isn't a good idea around motors in case of spillage. Does anyone know what this stuff is made of? Some kind of steel slag, perhaps?

 

I suppose the best thing to do would be to get some more coal and crush it and put it through sieves with different hole sizes but where I will find such things with 2mm and 2mm holes  I have no idea.

 

Other things I have learned from these trials are that lighting under the screens building will be essential and that great care must be taken when shunting the screens because locomotives will not fit under them!

Using real coal will almost certainly jam up any mechanism eventually, experience (in 4mm scale) led to using Woodland Scenics cinder ballast to represent coal in the Cwmafon screens. It's really too dull to look like coal but it does flow very freely and doesn't produce any dust. We also soon found out that some light is essential under there.

[PGH]

Using real coal will almost certainly jam up any mechanism eventually, experience (in 4mm scale) led to using Woodland Scenics cinder ballast to represent coal in the Cwmafon screens. It's really too dull to look like coal but it does flow very freely and doesn't produce any dust. We also soon found out that some light is essential under there.

 

"any mechanism eventually" - maybe, but surely that depends on the type of mechanism.  I can only say that I've been using real coal for more than 10 years with no problem.

[wagonbasher]

"any mechanism eventually" - maybe, but surely that depends on the type of mechanism.  I can only say that I've been using real coal for more than 10 years with no problem.

Michael said eventually, 10 years clearly isn't long enough...

 

Andy

[Ruston]

There is no mechanism to jam. The hopper holds the coal and the only mechanical parts (a motor with flywheel and the springs the hopper is mounted on) are on the outside and not in contact with the coal. If the spout becomes blocked then the hopper is easily removed and tipped upside down to remove the blockage.

[PGH]

There is no mechanism to jam. The hopper holds the coal and the only mechanical parts (a motor with flywheel and the springs the hopper is mounted on) are on the outside and not in contact with the coal.

 

Likewise I use a similar arrangement with the only "mechanism" being a motor with an out of centre flywheel.  Personally even if this did fail (after 10 years) I would still prefer to use coal that looks like the real thing.

[avonside1563]

The other downside to real coal on New Haden was the amount of dust it created that tended to get into all the delicate bits...

[5050]

The other downside to real coal on New Haden was the amount of dust it created that tended to get into all the delicate bits...

The model's  - or yours?

[Ruston]

I had nothing better to do this evening, so I drew up some rules for operating the layout. They'll be particularly useful for visiting operators but also for myself. And with 9 sound-fitted locomotives, which use 6 different configurations of function keys, I've printed off cards to go with each in order to prevent pressing the wrong buttons or having to go through the sound decoder notes.

 

I know some people are sceptical about sound but I'm now a definite convert. It adds so much more to operation and the set up of the acceleration/deceleration, the general smoother running with the Zimo decoders over the Gaugemaster (non-sound) and the fact that some use a brake function, means that driving is that bit more realistic. You really do have to drive them more like the real thing and think and brake in advance. On the locos that are fitted with keep-alives there is no emergency stop!

 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ruston

[Ruston]

This evening I have been playing around with the coal loading hoppers (I have made a second one) and have now fitted a speed control to the motors. Since I crushed and graded more coal I now have two particle sizes to play with. The large coal (up to 6mm) flows well but the smaller size (up to 3mm) seems to take a faster motor speed to get it moving freely.

 

The operation of the hoppers is unacceptably loud, even the one with the large coal. With the smaller coal not only is the sound of the DCC locomotives drowned out but so too is the television in the shed and the thing can even  be heard in the house.

 

It looks like it's back to the drawing board... :-(

[Stubby47]

Is it the motor that's loud, or the vibration of the hopper ?

 

Could you mount the motor on a sound-proof support ( soft rubber) and use an elasticated cord to an off-centre cam attached to the hopper ?

 

Further thoughts:

Does the orientation of the motor shaft to the hopper bed have any relevance ?

Given there are three possible axis on which the motor shaft can be aligned ( plus an infinite number of intermediate angles) , is there a performance gain ( so a noise reduction) if the axle is parallel with the length of the hopper bed, at right angles across the bed or vertically ?

 

Also, does the size of the eccentric weight affect the movenent (e.g. bigger weight, slower motor speed) ?

 

Also, does the surface of the hopper bed affect performance (e.g.  a glass plate rather than plastcard ) ?

 

HTH

 

Stu

Edited August 17, 2016 by Stubby47

[Ruston]

Is it the motor that's loud, or the vibration of the hopper ?

 

On starting it's the motor that makes a loud whining/screeching sound. This doesn't appear to be a lubrication problem as it didn't occur when using a battery but now it has a speed control it does this. In fact both motors do it. Once they have got up to speed the sound goes and it's the vibration that makes the most noise.

 

 

Further thoughts:

Does the orientation of the motor shaft to the hopper bed have any relevance ?

Given there are three possible axis on which the motor shaft can be aligned ( plus an infinite number of intermediate angles) , is there a performance gain ( so a noise reduction) if the axle is parallel with the length of the hopper bed, at right angles across the bed or vertically ?

 

 

Simple answer: I don't know. I haven't tried the motors in any orientation other than that shown in the earlier picture. It may try changing it.

 

Also, does the size of the eccentric weight affect the movenent (e.g. bigger weight, slower motor speed) ?

 

 

Possibly. The new hopper has more cut off the flywheel so I will try running the smaller coal through this one and see if it flows as well as the large coal did in this same hopper. That should give me an idea as to whether or not it's worth altering the flywheels.

 

 

Also, does the surface of the hopper bed affect performance (e.g.  a glass plate rather than plastcard ) ?

 

 

I don't think so. The first tests were made with the hopper on the bench and it didn't perform any better or worse than when fitted into the building.

[Stubby47]

For the last point I'll clarify I meant the actual surface the coal uses, rather than what the whole hopper is mounted on.

 

Obviously a surface of wool would perform badly, in the same way painted card or plasticard may perform worse than unpainted, and a smoother surface still, such as glass or stainless steel, might be a further improvement. I'm theorising the smoother the surface the less vibration would be needed.

[PGH]

I'm not sure if this helps, the quality of the video is pretty poor, but this is my coal loading arrangement in action:

 

https://youtu.be/pI1yLT6uBvs

 

The motor is run on DC via a controller and the speed adjusted to give a good flow of coal with a reasonably quiet operation.  About ¾ way through the speed is turned up which does illustrate how noisy it can get with excessive vibration.

 

If the coal is sitting on an inclined surface it shouldn't take much vibration to get it moving.

Edited August 17, 2016 by PGH