Carstairs Junction Circa 1985

[ThaneofFife]

I am hoping some folk will be able to direct me to some freely available images of the area including station buildings and ideally a track plan of this station during its BR days circa 1982-1985 when train splitting and joining operations were still common.  Also images of on or around the small stabling point would be good to see.

 

I would also like to know a little more about the actual operation in terms of a) typical rakes being joined and split and b) the down platform operation.  I know this line allowed for Edinburgh portions to depart off the back of forward running Glasgow portions to go in the up direction and the curve to Edinburgh but was this line ever taken or the platform on that side used for trains heading south on the WCML running over the trailing crossover to gain the up main line?

 

I have found RailScot images useful as well as some grainy images from the Nottingham Model Railways ex-Carstairs layout in 4mm scale, but cant seem to find anymore images in a handy "block" for easy ref.

Edited October 21, 2013 by ThaneofFife

[johnw1]

A bit before your target date I am afraid

 

 

Carstairs MPD - http://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/5678670763/

[Rivercider]

Here is a crop of picture I took in 1983, the brick hut from John's earlier picture still remains:-

 

Carstairs Stabling Point, 20099, Speno Rail Grinder (?), 20118 + 20197 + 20100, 19/6/83

 

cheers

[lmsforever]

In the seventies I went to Edinborough from P Risboro on a special and we arrived at Carstairs for some convoluted shunting before departing for Edinborough and the joys of the city and the Scottish Preservation site there.Every time I pass this station on the way to Glasgow it always looks derelict and not loved by anyone ,does anybody use it?

[bennyboy]

There was a layout based on Carstairs in that period featured in Railway Modeller in the 80s which may be of use, but I don't know exactly which issue it was in.

[Stuart]

Again, a little before your dates but there is some information about shunting

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=770

 

HTH

 

Stuart

[keefer]

j. howie's 'lowland locomotives' site had a page about carstairs, inc. a couple of track diagrams, info about splitting trains and the scary looking reverse cant curve off the edinburgh line.

http://www.jhowie.force9.co.uk/contents.htm

 

site seems to be down at the moment, but might be available via the 'wayback machine'

[ThaneofFife]

thanks for the links.  the 1976 photo is bit early but gives a feel for the depot. i doubt it changed much in the following 6-8 years.

[Dagworth]

There was a layout based on Carstairs in that period featured in Railway Modeller in the 80s which may be of use, but I don't know exactly which issue it was in.

The guys that built it are members here, no doubt they'll be along shortly

 

Andi

[ThaneofFife]

yeah this featured Lanark and Law Junctions too didnt it round the other side of the layout?  Ive got that article already guys - its a superb layout.  youtube has a full cab ride video and footage of their APT as well.  I am going 2mm finescale.

[Rivercider]

thanks for the links.  the 1976 photo is bit early but gives a feel for the depot. i doubt it changed much in the following 6-8 years.

The picture I posted earlier, from 1983, shows the same scene but from the platform side.

The only building remaining from John's photo is the white painted hut, all the other buildings have gone.

Looking at the track layout that went into the shed area though that seems to be the same.

I have posted 3 pictures on Flickr now from 1983 including an uncropped version of the one above,

interestingly in my pic of 47707 it is stood next to a BCK which seems to be in the exact same spot as the BCK in John's photo.

Was a BCK was kept at Carstairs with regular booked use, or kept spare in case of need when splitting a train without 2 brake vans?

 

cheers

[Gordon H]

I am hoping some folk will be able to direct me to some freely available images of the area including station buildings and ideally a track plan of this station during its BR days circa 1982-1985 when train splitting and joining operations were still common.  Also images of on or around the small stabling point would be good to see.

 

I would also like to know a little more about the actual operation in terms of a) typical rakes being joined and split and B) the down platform operation.  I know this line allowed for Edinburgh portions to depart off the back of forward running Glasgow portions to go in the up direction and the curve to Edinburgh but was this line ever taken or the platform on that side used for trains heading south on the WCML running over the trailing crossover to gain the up main line?

 

I have found RailScot images useful as well as some grainy images from the Nottingham Model Railways ex-Carstairs layout in 4mm scale, but cant seem to find anymore images in a handy "block" for easy ref.

 

Don't know about freely available images, but our initial survey of the site for building what became (and still is) the Nottingham club layout was carried out in late September 1980, so pictures consist mainly of home produced monochrome prints which were the cheapest way to do it at the time. Subsequent visits were made as necessary, later ones including video footage, which was quite useful when trying to fathom out the details in and around the main station building - now sadly demolished.

 

Down trains did split in the way described using the Down platform.

Up trains were usually formed in the Up platform, with the Edinburgh portion arriving first, diesel loco at the front, which then carried on into a headshunt on the north/east side. The Glasgow portion then arrived under electric power, stopping at the south end of the Up platform. Next the Edinburgh portion was backed onto it and the train departed southbound. The diesel would then (usually) prepare to take the next arriving Down train section back to Edinburgh.

No doubt there were variations on this, but that is how I recall it being done at that time.

 

The only picture I have to hand here of the layout shows a DC kits Class 303 in the Down platform, with station building behind. The damage to the building awning, whilst not particularly accurate on the model, is certainly representative of the state of the real thing during its final years!

 

 

Edited October 22, 2013 by Gordon H

[keefer]

i think there was often some sort of brake vehicle kept here to attach to the edinburgh portion of a train from down south.

IIRC there was an early morning postal/parcels service from Edinburgh which consisted solely of the brake coach

Edited October 23, 2013 by keefer

[scotcent]

...., info about splitting trains and the scary looking reverse cant curve off the edinburgh line.

......

Scary  it  was!  I  guess  it  still  is  for  the  relatively  few  trains  which  go  this  way  now.

 

 

Allan  F

[298]

There was a layout based on Carstairs in that period featured in Railway Modeller in the 80s which may be of use, but I don't know exactly which issue it was in.

That was built by Stuart Haworth, and is not the same as the exhibition layout built by the Riverside Railway Society/Nottingham Model Railway Society as mentioned by Gordon H. It was in RM, March 2007, Rail Express March 2001(?) And BRM before that.

[298]

IIRC the BCK used was 21269.

[brushman47544]

Was a BCK was kept at Carstairs with regular booked use, or kept spare in case of need when splitting a train without 2 brake vans?

 

i think there was often some sort of brake vehicle kept here to attach to the edinburgh portion of a train from down south.

IIRC there was an early morning postal/parcels service from Edinburgh which consisted solely of the brake coach

 

IIRC the BCK used was 21269.

 

The BCK was indeed kept at Carstairs to attach to the Edinburgh portion of a Glasgow/Edinburgh splitter from the south, if it arrived with one brake vehicle or if one was defective. This was because the Edinburgh portions were separate trains from Carstairs with their own reporting numbers, so could not start without a functioning brake coach. The Glasgow portion retained the original reporting number so if its brake coach became defective on route the train could still continue to its destination.

Edited October 23, 2013 by brushman47544

[GordonC]

This might be a daft question but what is the requirement for a working brake vehicle for? Has all loco-hauled coaching stock not been fitted with air or vacuum brakes on each coach for years and doesn't it need a loco attached to release either the air or vacuum brakes? Presumably the brake vehicles have a manually operated screw down brake, but why is it important to have one of those in every set?

 

And further, do the DVT's (Mark 3 and 4) have a screw down brake?

[keefer]

might be more to do with having an emergency brake valve and gauge with which a brake test is carried out before the split portion can start its journey?

[keefer]

i think the DVTs have a hydraulic parking brake

[Waverley47708]

Despite having never gone to Carstairs in the 1980s I had an interest in it and the portion trains. I used to go to Waverley on Saturdays in 1985/6 catching either the portion train from Dundee or Aberdeen from Inverkething as far as Waverley.

 

The Dundee to Poole one was the Wessex Scot, the Aberdeen to Penzance was The Cornishman in 1986 and possibly before and since then the portion train originating in Aberdeen was called the Devon Scot. I am a bit unclear on this, the May to Sept 1986 timetable has the Aberdeen to Penzanze service as The Cornishman, the Aberdeen to Plymouth may have been the Devon Scot, although it does not appear in the May to Sept 1986 timetable.

 

Getting either of them to Waverley was a bit more interesting than a 101 from Cowdenbeath or Kirkcaldy in those days.

 

On arriving at Waverley the portion trains via Carstairs tended to throw up the most interesting workings for the rest of the day as we sat at the end of Plt 14 watching them come and go into Plt 10 and 11. They would be a 47 from almost anywhere on them and a rake of Mk2 air cons with a Mk1s making up the train.

 

On Satudays they tended to be fairly lengthy trains 6 to 8? From memory most had a full brake next to the loco when heading South from Waverley and an RMB at the rear. The two that originated North of Edinburgh arrived with the RMB next to the loco from the North and left Waverly with it at the rear of the train, these two services passing twice through Haymarket. I thinkthe reaosn for this was so that the RMB ended up in the middle of the train when combined at Carstairs. Have seen photos of trains consisting of a 47 and as few as 4 x Mk2 air cons coaches.

 

There is a series of Scottish videos on you tube from the 80s, one of which features what I think is a portion train arriving, will clarify later.

 

Tragically my Yesterday's ScotRail video (which despite being a bit shaky is brilliant) has an hour of 1985 action, most of it is at Waverley, yet it has no shots of portion trains.

 

Some trains were named, off the top of my head The Wessex Scot, The Cornishman, The European (Harwich Park Quay) The Principality (Cardiff). There was at least one other names one the Midland Scot I think. Others were unnamed.

 

Never saw them myself but have seen photos of relief services to Carstairs from Edinburgh with 26s, or pairs of 20s with Mk1 stock. No idea if these met up with relief services from Glasgow or what happened to them once they got to Carstairs. I would doubt a 26 or a pair of 20 ran all the way down the WCML.

 

Waverley47708

[GordonC]

might be more to do with having an emergency brake valve and gauge with which a brake test is carried out before the split portion can start its journey?

 

What does a brake test before the split portion can set off involve? Does that need equipment in the brake vehicle more than is in the loco hauling the train? Presumably the loco would have gauges to show the air brake pressure or vacuum pressure being maintained

[Waverley47708]

Have joined BRCoachingStock · BR loco-hauled coaching stock 1948-97 and found these files, marhsalling books. Worth a look interestingly the 1984 version uses TSO etc, but from the 1985 version AAC1 etc are used instead.

 

They are alphabetical you will find under G for Glasgow the details of Glasgow trains heading through Carstairs and in the same section Glasgow/Edinburgh trains heading though Carstairs.

 

For the combined Glasgow Edinburgh (including the two that start in Aberdeen and Dundee) servcies the only slight difficutly is that it list the train as formed at Carstairs as in both portions together, it is not altogether clear where the spilt was, the RMB or RBR tends to be in the middle, from memory I think they came form the Edinburgh portion but it is not clear from the marshalling books.

 

For the northbound services you will need to look up the starting point Bristol, Birmingham, Penzance etc.

 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32711444/Carriage_workings/LMR/LMR_1983_PTMC.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/BRCS-Files/LMR_1984_PTMC_Ted-Robinson.pdf

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32711444/Carriage_workings/LMR/LMR_1985_PTM.pdf

 

I also have a book that lists loco diagrams, for the 1985/86 one ,I once worked out that you needed around 11 47s to cover all of the Edinburgh to Carstairs services on a given day, mainly 47/4s with a few 47/7s such as the May 1985 May 1986 Dundee to Poole service as far as Carstairs.

[Strathyre]

A brake vehicle is fitted with a manual brake that applies to some, or all, of the wheels - it is manually applied and manually released. The reason for these being included is because air, or vacuum, brakes will eventually leak off when standing for some time, effectively releasing the brakes - hence the need for a manual backup.

 

Brake tests are, on coaching or wagon stock, carried out by the driver creating air (or vacuum) in the train pipe and, for want of a better way to describe it, 'sealing' the system so that no more air or vacuum is created, leaving only what is in the train pipe keeping the brakes off (the train being held by the locomotive's own brake, which is separate).  Someone then goes to the back of the train and opens the air valve/removes the vacuum pipe from its seal and thus applies the brakes. This proves the integrity of the system from front to back. The valve is then closed/vacuum bag put back on with the driver's valve still sealed (which prevents the system from being charged again) and, if it doesn't charge up, this shows that there is no other source of air/vacuum that would bring the brakes off unintentionally (such as by the brake valve in another cab being accidentally left in the on position.

 

It is necessary to do this as accidents have been caused by people forgetting to connect air/vacuum pipes through the train and, without carrying out a basic brake test, no=one finds out until they try to stop....

 

Hope this help explain why we still need manual brake systems.

 

Paul

[Luke Piewalker]

Ah... I may have been a small child, but I still remember the brief moment of panic as you weren't sure if you were on the right half of the train...