The Stationmaster Has Been to an Auction -

[The Stationmaster]

In post #151, I would agree that County 1019 is at Exeter St. Davids.

 

I never expected to see an Adams T3, A12 (Jubilee), Drummond T14 and Maunsell Schools though!  This topic becomes more and more interesting, plus all the wonderful GWR stuff!!

 

Edit:  according to Bradley in 'The Drummond Classes', T14 No 460 was modified by Maunsell in 6/31, so the photo is probably sometime in the '30s, before the outbreak of WW2.  She was painted in Bulleid unlined black sometime between 8/41 and 6/45, but I cannot be more specific than that.

 

I am wondering about scanning some of my postcard collection at some time - I've just done a small reduction of Midland Railway stuff (I still have some) and fortunately most of the cards are long out of copyright as they were published at least one World War ago if not two.  Plus the collection (fancy word) also inludes previous purchases of old photographs as well - I'll have to give it some thought as this latest lot still aren't all scanned/posted and some earlier ones aren't sorted all that well (it can be difficult as I've got about 6 albums running which doesn't help but there is some quite interesting stuff but the research for some of them (even Western ones) can take a while too.

 

PS There will probably be no posts tomorrow (Thursday) as I'm off to an old boys' lunch in Taunton - I might manage one or two sometime late evening, gingers crossed

Edited October 30, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[jamie92208]

I am wondering about scanning some of my postcard collection at some time - I've just done a small reduction of Midland Railway stuff (I still have some) and fortunately most of the cards are long out of copyright as they were published at least one World War ago if not two.  Plus the collection (fancy word) also inludes previous purchases of old photographs as well - I'll have to give it some thought as this latest lot still aren't all scanned/posted and some earlier ones aren't sorted all that well (it can be difficult as I've got about 6 albums running which doesn't help but there is some quite interesting stuff but the research for some of them (even Western ones) can take a while too.

 

PS There will probably be no posts tomorrow (Thursday) as I'm off to an old boys' lunch in Taunton - I might manage one or two sometime late evening, gingers crossed

Yes Please for Midland stuff Mike.

 

Jamie

[Oldddudders]

Anent the Schools loco on its first day at School! This was 1930. Electric trains had served Victoria E since 12th July 1925, yet I see no juice-rail. I also feel the roof is much too low to be Vic E, platform 2.

[The Lurker]

Anent the Schools loco on its first day at School! This was 1930. Electric trains had served Victoria E since 12th July 1925, yet I see no juice-rail. I also feel the roof is much too low to be Vic E, platform 2.

and the poster in the background looks like it says "GWR" on the right hand panel (the left hand panel says "Southern") and 900 was named Eton. SEMG says it was displayed to the public at Waterloo and afterwards taken to Windsor for inspection by boys at the college.

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/v_class1.html

 

 

Does this tie in to the picture?

 

regards

 

Chris

[Rivercider]

and the poster in the background looks like it says "GWR" on the right hand panel (the left hand panel says "Southern") and 900 was named Eton. SEMG says it was displayed to the public at Waterloo and afterwards taken to Windsor for inspection by boys at the college.

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/v_class1.html

 

 

Does this tie in to the picture?

 

regards

 

Chris

I think you are correct, it looks like Windsor and Eton Riverside to me,

 

cheers

[Jaz]

Is it just me, or do other people think that from this selection of  photographs that except for telegraph poles  there is a noticeable lack of features (Oh an odd signal or lamp), but certainly little in the way of ground signals, speed or otherwise. 

When did most of the paraphernalia start to arrive, and I (mistakenly?) thought tokens were common in earlier days.

I admit to being lacking on the day to day running, most especially of earlier locos and trains, but a lot of the pictures seem quite stark. Was this a fashion to try to picture the loco in solitary splendour?

 

Please don't shoot me down as being ignorant, when I am interested in learning.

 

Also I am not out to hi-jack what is a very interesting thread. Usually looking through old black and white pictures seems to me to be missing that important factor for a modeller..colour. But the discussion here makes them more interesting.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Is it me, or is there some strange animal sitting on 9014's smokebox?

 

At last, something I can contribute to this superb thread.

Could it be the Triang/Mettoy stamped metal rocking horse, the one with exposed metal springs on a metal frame.

 

Mike.

[Dunsignalling]

Is it just me, or do other people think that from this selection of photographs that except for telegraph poles there is a noticeable lack of features (Oh an odd signal or lamp), but certainly little in the way of ground signals, speed or otherwise.

When did most of the paraphernalia start to arrive, and I (mistakenly?) thought tokens were common in earlier days.

I admit to being lacking on the day to day running, most especially of earlier locos and trains, but a lot of the pictures seem quite stark. Was this a fashion to try to picture the loco in solitary splendour?

 

Please don't shoot me down as being ignorant, when I am interested in learning.

 

Also I am not out to hi-jack what is a very interesting thread. Usually looking through old black and white pictures seems to me to be missing that important factor for a modeller..colour. But the discussion here makes them more interesting.

These pictures date from an era when the lineside was much more open and photographers could avoid getting odd items of hardware in their compositions simply by moving a few yards.

 

Since the end of steam, the land surrounding our railways has become generally overgrown and one has little choice of vantage point; there's either a gap you can shoot through or there isn't!

 

Maximising the prominence of the loco was popular with many photographers but was also, to some extent, a result of using the fixed focus lenses (often with a slightly-wider-than-natural field of view) that were usual before interchangeable-lens cameras became affordable. This tendency is especially noticeable in shots taken from a low angle.

 

These lenses were, at best, only single-coated and, compared with modern multi-coated products, their contrast softens quite significantly as distance from the camera increases. This effect is sometimes increased by the characteristics of older b&w (roll) film emulsions.

 

Hope this helps

 

John

Edited November 1, 2013 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

Jaz,

 

Many of the photographs on this thread were taken in and around loco sheds and goods yards where ground signals would not be required, except on the exit road to a running line.  Likewise, there would be no need for speed restriction signs in these locations.  Where the  photographs are taken in around stations, in many instances the photographer has concentrated on the locomotive and it is not close to any ground signals etc.  If you look in post #11, the second image of 5117 at Oxford shows a scissors crossover on the opposite lines with attendant ground signals.  Here the photographer choose to shoot the train and not just the loco, so the wider field of view captures other items of interest.  Likewise in #66, where 8444 is running into Hengoed High Level, there is a ground signal adjacent to the other running line, controlling shunting movements over the point to the running line on the left, exactly where one would expect it to be.

 

Speed restriction signs would be located, in the main, outside of station areas on running lines.  Because of the nature of the photos which concentrate on stationary trains / locomotives at stations, yards and sheds these items would not be in the vicinity. 

 

I hope that answers your questions.

It is perhaps worth noting that a bit of past research on my part suggests that the total number of running line speed restriction signs (for permanent restrictions of speed) on the entire GWR could be counted on the fingers of both hands - possibly the toes might have to be used as well but you wouldn't need all of them.

 

ADDENDUM  The LNER style of 'cutout' indicators for PRSs were not introduced to the WR until late 1958/early 1959 and the became much more widely used than the GW pattern indicators ever had been..

Edited November 1, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[Oldddudders]

Maximising the prominence of the loco was popular with many photographers

 

Indeed. I think many a railway historian has bemoaned the fact that people traditionally took pictures of trains, not railways. Thus we know a very great deal about the appearance and condition of the locos, a bit less about rolling stock, even less about structures - and really comparatively little about the wider railwayscape. And, even though almost everyone now uses digital media, which are essentially free, I wonder whether that skewed representation of the railway has changed much.

[EddieB]

These pictures date from an era when the lineside was much more open and photographers could avoid getting odd items of hardware in their compositions simply by moving a few yards.

 

Since the end of steam, the land surrounding our railways has become generally overgrown and one has little choice of vantage point; there's either a gap you can shoot through or there isn't!

 

Maximising the prominence of the loco was popular with many photographers but was also, to some extent, a result of using the fixed focus lenses (often with a slightly-wider-than-natural field of view) that were usual before interchangeable-lens cameras became affordable. This tendency is especially noticeable in shots taken from a low angle.

 

These lenses were, at best, only single-coated and, compared with modern multi-coated products, their contrast softens quite significantly as distance from the camera increases. This effect is sometimes increased by the characteristics of older b&w (roll) film emulsions.

 

Hope this helps

 

John

Lineside vegetation has increased (stray sparks from steam locomotives are less of a risk now), but also in "those days" it was reasonably common for serious enthusiasts to obtain a lineside pass and operate from within the fence.

 

The lost darkroom arts of burning and dodging are more easily replicated in Photoshop to remove unwanted background features.  Such treatments were more suited to big enlargements than to postcard-sized prints and, generally given a larger negative to work from, many photographers used an opaquing solution to paint out such features from their negatives.  Not something I would agree with, but you'll find it described in books and articles of that time.

 

As far as lens coatings and contrast, my understanding is that lens coating improves light transmission and therefore raises contrast, particularly when shooting against the light.  However, I don't think that contrast lessens with distance due to lens coating.  Lowering of contrast with distance is related to levels of atmospheric water vapour or other particulate matter and can be decreased by filters designed to reduce haze (such as a Skylight 1A) or by increasing sensitivity at the red end of the spectrum.  Orthochromatic films were less sensitive to red, and were therefore more subject to lowered contrast with distance, whereas more recent panchromatic films had greater sensitivity and less lowering of contrast.

[EddieB]

Indeed. I think many a railway historian has bemoaned the fact that people traditionally took pictures of trains, not railways. Thus we know a very great deal about the appearance and condition of the locos, a bit less about rolling stock, even less about structures - and really comparatively little about the wider railwayscape. And, even though almost everyone now uses digital media, which are essentially free, I wonder whether that skewed representation of the railway has changed much.

With greatest emphasis on the top link main-line locomotives (which makes Mike's collection all the more interesting and valuable).  On top of which comes the propensity (exacerbated by the railway press) to focus on special and unusual workings, and neglect the routine day in, day out services.

 

Future railway historians (if ever they exist) may be forgiven for thinking our recent locomotive fleets were dominated by Virgin class 57s, heritage steam services outnumber multiple units and the hub of the modern network is Dawlish!

[The Stationmaster]

The next batch will be posted sometime on Sunday although I will need to do more scanning as well but tomorrow there will be  a couple of GWR coaches and a railcar plus a BR horsebox and I'll try to get the other rolling stock pics scanned.  Still to come area  few on the LM including a Western loco deep in LMS territory (shame you can only see the tender).

 

Incidentally I did chose with the picture of 9022 at Oxford to increase the exposure for the dark areas and perforce crop out the sky background which is very typically steam era with a multitude of signals in the distance; I'm happy to post the original if anyone wishes.

[The Stationmaster]

Right - just scraping into Sunday as I type and a really mixed bag.

 

First we have GWR  tank wagon No. 2010 on an unknown date at an unknown location and thanks to Nick (Buffalo) we know a bit more, viz -

Russell's Appendix fig 132 shows no 2003, Lot 1387, Diagram O23, built 1927, and looking pretty much identical to the photo of 2010, though the tank appears aluminium coloured. Apparently, 2003 was later converted to a six wheeler to diagram O44. See also the 1930 dates on 2010's solebars.

Similar side boards with GW, number and Tare appear on tanks assigned to dairies around 1930, so the "Milk Tank" lettering may mean just that. 

 

 

 

Next a BR standard horsebox - again with no notes

 

 

But we're slightly better off with ex GWR railcar No. W13W noted as at Stourbridge but again undated

 

 

Now GWR Restaurant Car No. 9556 noted as Shrewsbury (which it is) on 29 August 1937

 

 

Now we have it all - this photographer clearly noted everything and the note managed to stay with the print for years, don't forget to click on teh picture to enlarge it

 

 

The next one was clearly a print sold by the photographer as it is stamped with his name on the back, it shows 4089 climbing the final part of Patchway Bank but is undated

 

 

And finally a GWR official photo, Swindon negative number T1.136 and clearly sold for reproduction purposes as it is stamped on the back 'Please acknowledge British Railways' - so thank you to BR for reprinting this GWR 1930s picture and making it available for publication in January 1952.  I have adjusted Swindon's exposure slightly to bring up some detail.

 

Edited November 4, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[chrisf]

The shot of W8075 is of interest - to me, at any rate.  What, one might ask, is a full first doing at PPRD next to an auto trailer?

 

The answer, I think, stems from the abolition of first class on London suburban services during World War 2.  A lot of the 8 compartment firsts were sent out into the country and declassified.  Many ended up in South Wales, particularly in the Newport Division, and show up in photographs well into the 1950s.  Henry Casserley photographed one at Tredegar in July 1958 whilst in South Wales for a SLS railtour.  It looks as though it was formed in a workmen's train.  Coal miners travelling first class?!  Why W8075 still has its first class markings in 1952 is a puzzle.  

 

The coach next to it is a Hawksworth suburban third, almost straight out of the box.  It does not have the lining that was abolished at around that time.

 

Methinks the Stationmaster is sitting on a treasure trove!

 

Chris

[Fat Controller]

The tank wagon's a curiousity; the lettering visible through the (thin) coat of paint on the barrel reveals it to have been a milk tank. The top line is less visible, though the second word starts with a D- 'United Dairies', perhaps? I'd always understood the barrels to have been owned by the dairies; odd to see one that had gone over to railway ownership so early in its existence.

[The Stationmaster]

The shot of W8075 is of interest - to me, at any rate.  What, one might ask, is a full first doing at PPRD next to an auto trailer?

 

The answer, I think, stems from the abolition of first class on London suburban services during World War 2.  A lot of the 8 compartment firsts were sent out into the country and declassified.  Many ended up in South Wales, particularly in the Newport Division, and show up in photographs well into the 1950s.  Henry Casserley photographed one at Tredegar in July 1958 whilst in South Wales for a SLS railtour.  It looks as though it was formed in a workmen's train.  Coal miners travelling first class?!  Why W8075 still has its first class markings in 1952 is a puzzle.  

 

The coach next to it is a Hawksworth suburban third, almost straight out of the box.  It does not have the lining that was abolished at around that time.

 

Methinks the Stationmaster is sitting on a treasure trove!

 

Chris

Alas as far as rolling stock is concerned it is a very limited treasure trove Chris - but I suspected you were going to enjoy this one.  

 

As far as locos are concerned it is quite an extensive collection (although I have recently thinned it slightly on the Midland leg) with a large number of commercial postcard views of locos.  When I have finished scanning the interesting parts of the latest purchase (and the GW is now all but done) I might go through in a few early 20th century station views as I'm sure a postcard of Ealing with a Metro tank standing at Ealing Broadway station might be of interest?

[Miss Prism]

2010 is one of the early (1931?) 4-wheel milk tanks. They weren't particularly successful, two axles shaking the milk a bit too much, and hence the adoption soon thereafter of the 6-wheel diagrams. Looks like it has been changed for non-milk use.

[Oldddudders]

The tank wagon's a curiousity; the lettering visible through the (thin) coat of paint on the barrel reveals it to have been a milk tank. The top line is less visible, though the second word starts with a D- 'United Dairies', perhaps? I'd always understood the barrels to have been owned by the dairies; odd to see one that had gone over to railway ownership so early in its existence.

Not my field, obviously, but I am under the impression that 4-wheeled milk tanks didn't find much favour. Rough riding was apparent in the Southern fleet, and the BoT had recommended, says Mike King's Southern Coaches book, that the minimum wheelbase for vehicles to run without speed restriction be 15' unless 6-wheeled. Milk and slow running do not go well together, so perhaps these vehicles were simply downgraded - and the redundant tanks were of little real use to the dairy so were not reclaimed.

 

Edit - Miss P got there first!

Edited November 4, 2013 by Oldddudders

[EddieB]

I find the film and exposure information almost as interesting as the subject (although I don't know why "3.XI.52" has been transcribed as "3/10/52").

 

I think Kodak Super-XX had a rating of 200 (or ISO 100 in today's terms), but appears to have been rated nearer ISO 25 if the "sunny f16 rule" is applied (possibly over-exposed for shadow detail).

 

 

2010 is one of the early (1931?) 4-wheel milk tanks. They weren't particularly successful, two axles shaking the milk a bit too much, and hence the adoption soon thereafter of the 6-wheel diagrams. Looks like it has been changed for non-milk use.

Butter wagons?

[Ian Hargrave]

The 4089 shot is fascinating.Surely a Castle at its best.The coaching stock is interesting,especially for those of us investing in GWR versions of tha new Hornby Star.I speculate....why not?.....the clerestory stock is a holiday strengthener added at Cardiff General to accommodate a rush of returning 'exiles' (my mother among them--then a Queen Alexandra's district nurse in Maida Vale,on leave,visiting family in Treorchy) So...a guess 1934/5?

[Fat Controller]

Not my field, obviously, but I am under the impression that 4-wheeled milk tanks didn't find much favour. Rough riding was apparent in the Southern fleet, and the BoT had recommended, says Mike King's Southern Coaches book, that the minimum wheelbase for vehicles to run without speed restriction be 15' unless 6-wheeled. Milk and slow running do not go well together, so perhaps these vehicles were simply downgraded - and the redundant tanks were of little real use to the dairy so were not reclaimed.

 

Edit - Miss P got there first!

I was aware that four-wheel milk tanks had only a short life, before being supplanted by six-wheelers; I thought, however, that the tanks had been re-used. Perhaps the earlier ones didn't have the (presumably expensive) vitrified lining?

[buffalo]

2010 is one of the early (1931?) 4-wheel milk tanks. They weren't particularly successful, two axles shaking the milk a bit too much, and hence the adoption soon thereafter of the 6-wheel diagrams. Looks like it has been changed for non-milk use.

Russell's Appendix fig 132 shows no 2003, Lot 1387, Diagram O23, built 1927, and looking pretty much identical to the photo of 2010, though the tank appears aluminium coloured. Apparently, 2003 was later converted to a six wheeler to diagram O44. See also the 1930 dates on 2010's solebars.

 

Similar side boards with GW, number and Tare appear on tanks assigned to dairies around 1930, so the "Milk Tank" lettering may mean just that. There's no reason to believe it is a departmental wagon.

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

2010 is one of the early (1931?) 4-wheel milk tanks. They weren't particularly successful, two axles shaking the milk a bit too much, and hence the adoption soon thereafter of the 6-wheel diagrams. Looks like it has been changed for non-milk use.

 

Not just vibration as I understand there was at least one derailment involving a 4 wheeler which pushed along the move to 6 wheels for miltas.

 

I find the film and exposure information almost as interesting as the subject (although I don't know why "3.XI.52" has been transcribed as "3/10/52").

 

I think Kodak Super-XX had a rating of 200 (or ISO 100 in today's terms), but appears to have been rated nearer ISO 25 if the "sunny f16 rule" is applied (possibly over-exposed for shadow detail).

 

 

 

 

Not by me guv!  That's exactly as it came out of the lot although erroneous things like that do seem to be quite common in the notes - incorrect engine numbers where they are clearly visible, in at least one case an incorrect date plus misidentified locations, all part of life's rich pageant of buying an interesting couple of auction lots.

 

 

The 4089 shot is fascinating.Surely a Castle at its best.The coaching stock is interesting,especially for those of us investing in GWR versions of tha new Hornby Star.I speculate....why not?.....the clerestory stock is a holiday strengthener added at Cardiff General to accommodate a rush of returning 'exiles' (my mother among them--then a Queen Alexandra's district nurse in Maida Vale,on leave,visiting family in Treorchy) So...a guess 1934/5?

 

Almost certainly pre-war Ian and the regrettable thing is that even on the (large) original scan I cannot clearly make out the style of livery on the tender.  What I also find very interesting ifs the noticeboard on the Down regarding 'All Down Goods ...etc' as it is very clearly on a white, or very pale ground with darker lettering which came as a surprise to me.  Further information would be welcome (not that I'm GWR period modelling wise).

Edited November 4, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

Russell's Appendix fig 132 shows no 2003, Lot 1387, Diagram O23, built 1927, and looking pretty much identical to the photo of 2010, though the tank appears aluminium coloured. Apparently, 2003 was later converted to a six wheeler to diagram O44. See also the 1930 dates on 2010's solebars.

 

Similar side boards with GW, number and Tare appear on tanks assigned to dairies around 1930, so the "Milk Tank" lettering may mean just that. There's no reason to believe it is a departmental wagon.

 

Nick

Thanks Nick - I didn't look too closely at the scan and the whole vehicle was pitch black on the original (rather small) print, I will amend the caption accordingly thanks.