Re-painting GWR locos during WW2?

[Karhedron]

By the way, the 47xx class got the express G W passenger livery (evidence being in the May 2013 Steam Days issue).

Which photo are you looking at and what do you mean by express passenger livery? There is one shot of a 4700 with G(crest)W on the tender but there is no sign of lining that I can see and the loco could be green or wartime black. I don't think that any of the 4700s received lining until the 1950s.

[The Great Bear]

Interesting. Related question, so there were locos which were painted black then which had G (Crest) W; the Stars, Halls and based on above 47xx?

[OnTheBranchline]

Which photo are you looking at and what do you mean by express passenger livery? There is one shot of a 4700 with G(crest)W on the tender but there is no sign of lining that I can see and the loco could be green or wartime black. I don't think that any of the 4700s received lining until the 1950s.

 

I think when I said express passenger, I meant just getting the G W insignia rather than GWR.

[OnTheBranchline]

Interesting. Related question, so there were locos which were painted black then which had G (Crest) W; the Stars, Halls and based on above 47xx?

 

And when the Stars were painted black, did they lose the copper capped chimneys and brass safety valve?

[Karhedron]

I think when I said express passenger, I meant just getting the G W insignia rather than GWR.

Fair enough, I understand now. I have just read through Great Western Way and it states in there that locos painted in wartime black had GWR on the tenders while G(crest)W was reserved for locos painted green.

 

This suggests that the photo from the Journal was of a green loco (albeit unlined). The GWR has started repainting locos in full green livery in 1945 so the photo could have been of a fairly newly painted loco.

 

I would have expected the post-war livery to be plain green with GWR on the tender (ala Granges and Manors) but I have not seen any photos of this. Perhaps they had plain green with G(crest)W? 4705 seems to have carried this.

[Miss Prism]

If I were at Swindon erecting shop in 1944, and had to decide whether my brand new 6959 of a brand new class was an 'express passenger engine' (G <coat> W) or an 'ordinary passenger engine' (G W R), would you blame me for inclining to the former view, particularly if the boss was present admiring his wonderful new design?

[Miss Prism]

Ah well, now there's the question!

[Weaselfish]

From photographic evidence, is 6959 unique in its livery?

I very much doubt if your question can be answered definitively. 'Locomotive Liveries of the War and Austerity Years' by John Copsey, RC Riley and David Tipper in the Great Western Railway Journal no.7, Summer 1993 edition covers the subject. It starts by stating "The 1940s and early 1950s were perhaps the most disordered period ever encountered in terms of engine liveries" and proceeds to illustrate the point comprehensively. For what it's worth, my guess would be that 6959 would not have been unique in the black livery and G (Crest) W on the tender. It was part of a batch of Modified Halls (6959 to 6970) which entered traffic between March and September 1944. They didn't start to receive names until December 1946. The often cited contention that the G (Crest) W lettering was only applied to green tenders isn't correct - the article I refer to above mentions black tenders with G (Crest) W and Power of the Granges has several photos of Granges in that turnout.

[OnTheBranchline]

Forgive me, I don't have the exact GWRJ magazine in front of me, but were any of the Modified Halls painted green before nationalization?

[Miss Prism]

Probably. 6971-6990 (lot 366, 1947-1948.)

Edited December 21, 2013 by Miss Prism

[The Great Bear]

I very much doubt if your question can be answered definitively. 'Locomotive Liveries of the War and Austerity Years' by John Copsey, RC Riley and David Tipper in the Great Western Railway Journal no.7, Summer 1993 edition covers the subject. It starts by stating "The 1940s and early 1950s were perhaps the most disordered period ever encountered in terms of engine liveries" and proceeds to illustrate the point comprehensively. For what it's worth, my guess would be that 6959 would not have been unique in the black livery and G (Crest) W on the tender. It was part of a batch of Modified Halls (6959 to 6970) which entered traffic between March and September 1944. They didn't start to receive names until December 1946. The often cited contention that the G (Crest) W lettering was only applied to green tenders isn't correct - the article I refer to above mentions black tenders with G (Crest) W and Power of the Granges has several photos of Granges in that turnout.

  

Probably. 6971-6990 (lot 366, 1947-1948.)

Interesting, for me doing post war layout and hankering after a modified Hall for a bit of variety. I'd presumed to date that when locos were named they were repainted green, maybe not? What about the restoration of cab-side windows? Looking at my layout I really needed one from the first batch, the second were released too late (ties layout to late 47) & none of suitable sheds for me - 6963, 6964 being most likely candidates named Jan and June 1947 respecitively. A wartime black loco, with no name would be something different, though...

[Weaselfish]

Forgive me, I don't have the exact GWRJ magazine in front of me, but were any of the Modified Halls painted green before nationalization?

I agree with Miss Prism at post 39. The GWRJ article has a great photo of 6990 at Old Oak Common on 28/11/54 in fully lined out GWR green livery with the G (Crest) W insignia on the tender. I think it's safe to assume that the entire batch were painted in the same way.

 

GREAT BEAR: RCTS Locomotives of the Great Western Railway part 8, Modern Passenger Classes p. 15 states that removal of the side window plating on the Castle class began 'about the end of May 1945, and, due to shortages, some engines had only one window replaced at first and the work was not completed until late in 1947'. On p. 30 it states that Halls had theirs replaced 'between 1945 and about 1948'. My own money would be on  work starting on an ad-hoc basis after the blackout restrictions were lifted in April 1945.

[Team Traction]

I am curious about which classes of GWR locos were re-painted for WW2 and what colours that would have been repainted to? I know that the 38xx were painted wartime-black (from a picture on Wikipedia).

 

Would there have been circumstances where, for example, a Grange would not have been re-painted in wartime-black during the hostilities? A side question of mine is is a Grange with the shirtbutton in 1947 believable?

Hey, First Post For Me, but I hope I have some useful info for you!

I know That at least one 48xx (14xx) was repainted into GWR wartime black No. 4807 I have no photos, but how I know is DJ Models is peroducing a 48xx in That livery! I'm definenly getting one for myself as I'm modelling a GWR Branchline in 1941! Perfect.

 

Also, idk if it helps but I also know at least one Autocoach was repainted in plain GWR Chocolate for WW2. Cannot remember the number, but one is selling on eBay for £60! Myself, I'm going to have one, but instead going to modify an existing airfix Vehicle

 

Thanks for reading,

Brad.

[OnTheBranchline]

I've always wanted to paint a castle or king in wartime black (not prototypical though).

[The Fatadder]

A question...

 

Mention of wartime black stars has made me think, that it might be an interesting loco to model rather than the plane green one that I had planned. Did any Stars in black last until '47 and are there any published photos...

[Clearwater]

I've always wanted to paint a castle or king in wartime black (not prototypical though).

One April a few years ago, a magazine had City Of Truro in lined black...

[Weaselfish]

A question...

 

Mention of wartime black stars has made me think, that it might be an interesting loco to model rather than the plane green one that I had planned. Did any Stars in black last until '47 and are there any published photos...

Tricky... That's going to be quite a research job with no guarantee of a definitive answer. I would personally take the broad view that the earlier a Star was withdrawn after 1945 the more likely it would be to have retained black livery - if it had been repainted that colour during the war. As an example of the problems you'll face, I've been collecting post-war photos of 4058 Princess Augusta. She isn't on the list of GWR 4-6-0s repainted black in GWRJ no. 7 but it's impossible to tell what livery she was in - in every photo of her from 1945 to withdrawal the locomotive is absolutely filthy. If I was in your position I'd choose a Star that lasted to the point you're modelling and get stuck in.

[The Fatadder]

Tricky... That's going to be quite a research job with no guarantee of a definitive answer. I would personally take the broad view that the earlier a Star was withdrawn after 1945 the more likely it would be to have retained black livery - if it had been repainted that colour during the war. As an example of the problems you'll face, I've been collecting post-war photos of 4058 Princess Augusta. She isn't on the list of GWR 4-6-0s repainted black in GWRJ no. 7 but it's impossible to tell what livery she was in - in every photo of her from 1945 to withdrawal the locomotive is absolutely filthy. If I was in your position I'd choose a Star that lasted to the point you're modelling and get stuck in.

It is a minefield identifying liveries for the post war period, given practically every photo is filthy to the point that you can't see lining very clearly and there's minimal contrast between the smokebox and boiler to determine colour...

 

I must get a copy of GWJ no7 for that list, though looking on eBay it is currently rather lacking that particular issue.

[asmay2002]

I must get a copy of GWJ no7 for that list, though looking on eBay it is currently rather lacking that particular issue.

 Try Bookfinder

[The Fatadder]

A question if I may about a specific loco, I am trying to tie down the livery of star 4025 in 1946/7. I have found a photo circa 1949 (edit: I mean 1948) of the loco in ex works unlined green with British Railways in the GWR font on the tender and a smokebox number plate.

 

A black passenger loco with no name sounds too good to resist

 

Now I am trying to find out what livery it was in when it entered the works, whether it would be unlined green G c W, wartime black (fingers crossed) or lined pre war shirt button (in which case it's back to the drawing board). So far looking at the internet and my available books on the GW 460s, nothing found so far ...

 

Were there any stars listed in the GWJ article as being in black?

Edited December 26, 2016 by The Fatadder

[Weaselfish]

A question if I may about a specific loco, I am trying to tie down the livery of star 4025 in 1946/7. I have found a photo circa 1949 of the loco in ex works unlined green with British Railways in the GWR font on the tender and a smokebox number plate.

 

A black passenger loco with no name sounds too good to resist

 

Now I am trying to find out what livery it was in when it entered the works, whether it would be unlined green G c W, wartime black (fingers crossed) or lined pre war shirt button (in which case it's back to the drawing board). So far looking at the internet and my available books on the GW 460s, nothing found so far ...

 

Were there any stars listed in the GWJ article as being in black?

FATADDER:

 

I think you may possibly be in luck, although as ever with GWR livery in this period a definitive answer is elusive. The GWRJ no. 7 article states that 4025 was painted black during a works visit at some point between 13 February and 21 March 1943. With the post-war backlog of repairs and maintenance there's a good chance that 4025 stayed in black until the works visit and repaint shown in your photograph. You'd need to check the locomotive record to see if there were any other overhauls between '43 and '48 but this of course does not mean that the engine would have been repainted.  

 

There are a couple of complicating factors though. By the end of 1947 the GWR was applying lined green livery to the Kings, Castles and Stars. This was continued by BR except for the blue period for the kings and the various experimental lime green repaints. Accordingly, a repaint in unlined green as late as 1949 seems slightly anomalous. (I suspect the photo you have may be slightly earlier than 1949). Also, the full 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering was used for a short time only in 1948. My guess - and I emphasise that it is a guess- is that to be sporting a combination of unlined green livery and 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering 4025 was shopped at some point in 1948 and someone for some reason took the decision not to apply lining.

[gwrrob]

4025 outside Swindon Works in 1948.

 

[Weaselfish]

GWRROB:

 

Thank you - that's a great photo. The Stars really were handsome machines.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Weaselfish

[gwrrob]

GWRROB:

 

Thank you - that's a great photo. The Saints really were handsome machines.

 

Stars,even.Details of 4025

 

4025  Originally built as King Charles July 1909. First shed allocation Plymouth Laira. Swindon no. 3 superheater fitted January 1911. Renamed Italian Monarch October 1927. Name removed June 1940. Last shed allocation Wolverhampton, Stafford Road. Withdrawn August 1950.

Edited December 26, 2016 by gwrrob

[The Fatadder]

4025 outside Swindon Works in 1948.

 

Photo-Gwr-Star-No-4025-1948-On.jpg

Thanks rob, got my dates wrong. I blame the children

Thanks to weaselfish for the confirmation, 4025 it is!