GWML Electification

[The Stationmaster]

I'm confused by the mention of 442 class units. These are 3rd rail so how do they fit in with the GWML OHLE or is that the serious technical issue that can't be mentioned? I guess that would fit with the TPE technical issue as well, neither route is 3rd rail electrified ....

 

Also they are all slated for withdrawal in 2018 apparently as the franchise agreement requires the majority to be replaced in 2016 with 6 units retained until 2018.

 

Supposedly, after some initial teething troubles these BR Mk3 based units are supposed to be the most reliable EMU out there.

Certainly a major rebuild job if they're considered as electric units but maybe they could provide potential Mk3 bodyshell 'feed corn' for a push-pull conversion as was mentioned previously in connection with trans-Pennine use?

[Richard E]

But, as RoytheBus has pointed out elsewhere on the forum they are badly corroded and wouldn't stand up to conversion at this stage in their lives. Plus all the wiring etc is 'bespoke' so you are going to strip them to a bodyshell, fit new bogies (for 110mph running) and new wiring, aircon, doors (as they are not DDA compliant and this then adds the problem of disturbing the integrity of the bodyshell) and interior and then have something that has about 10 years life left in it. Much more cost effective, and probably cheaper, to build new.

[Christopher125]

I'm confused by the mention of 442 class units. These are 3rd rail so how do they fit in with the GWML OHLE or is that the serious technical issue that can't be mentioned? I guess that would fit with the TPE technical issue as well, neither route is 3rd rail electrified ...

 

From what's been said the answer would most likely have been loco-haulage, though I gather their use as HST trailers has also been looked into.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I'm confused by the mention of 442 class units. .....

 

It seemed to me that it was posted in the wrong thread.

The exact same post has gone into the "Class 442 Services" thread in the "Prototype Questions" section.

 

Now we have a bunch of posts in this thread, that should be in another !!!

 

.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[RJS1977]

I think 442 is a typing error - according to RAIL, the new Crossrail stock is Class 342.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I think 442 is a typing error - according to RAIL, the new Crossrail stock is Class 342.

 

No, they are Class 345.

 

Class 342 was BR's proposed Networker based HS1 domestic train. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[m0rris]

442s were proposed to be turned into diesel hauled coaching stock, utilising their power doors as an advantage over existing mk3 rakes. So far though, it looks like that has been canned.

[black and decker boy]

The class 442 (ex-Wessex 3rd rail) was suggested in the TPE ITT documents by the DfT. They would have been converted to loco hauled trailers.

 

In the event, it seems that TPE have gone with other options. This then lead to a lot of discussion / rumour that they were to be taken on by GWR, again as push-pull trailers with a 67 or 68 to work the Cardiff to Portsmouth trains due to the late running OHLE.

 

It appears this is also not happening hence my post which was in response to earlier posts on the subject by others.

 

The only known fact is that most of these units come off lease in spring 2016 with a small number continuing with TSGN for a few years on Eastbourne trains.

 

The underlying need for extra trains on GWR (and elsewhere) for capacity /cascades in the short term hasn't been solved. It is certain that electric services are still a long way off.

[RJS1977]

Just reading the article about the Crossrail station at Paddington reminds me that there was a pre-War plan to reroute the Hammersmith & City Line along the south side of Paddington and into the Circle/District Line station. I can't help wondering whether that would have been a sensible thing to have done now, with Crossrail using the existing H&C station instead. As it is, H&C trains will continue to cross from the south side to the north side of the GWR main line while Crossrail will have to cross from south to north!

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Right, just had a butchers at the scheme plans for Paddington.

 

Under the scope of the Crossrail surface works, the following will happen:

 

Christmas 2015 - Platform 14 will be lengthened slightly, with the point being positioned slightly further west and the whole line being relaid.

 

Christmas 2016 - Platform 13 will be recovered (this will happen in the run up to Christmas), the former alignment will be covered with a new Platform. Platform 12 will be extended along this with the current crossover, starting signal and down shunt signal to be recovered. There will also be new Platform Starters for Platforms 2,3,4 & 5, extending the useable length of the platforms

 

Christmas 2017 - No Infrastructure changes at Paddington Station, but ETCS will be integrated.

 

Obviously, other infrastructure changes are happening as well in these stages, but they are too numerous to list here.

 

Hope this clears things up!

 

Simon

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Presumably platforms 1 & 2 at Padd will be electrified at some point?

[St. Simon]

Presumably platforms 1 & 2 at Padd will be electrified at some point?

 

Yes, all platforms will be electrified under the Scope of Crossrail Works.

 

Simon

[Ron Ron Ron]

Thanks Simon.

Most of that has been out in the public domain already, either from "insiders" posting on other web sites, or from Crossrail and NR info posted on the web; but it's good to get confirmation from someone who's also looked at the details themselves.

 

Cheers

Ron

 

 

.

[Zomboid]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but there's some actual contact system (I.e. Catenary, contact wire and droppers, didn't notice how it's tensioned though) installed on the down fast (main?) near pangbourne now to go with the earth wire.

[PenrithBeacon]

Although as a taxpayer I fully support electrification, as an enthusiast it can be a disaster. I'm not at all surprised that people living along the GWML are complaining about the intrusive nature of this electrification. It seems to me that it is more of an eyesore than the original 1960s 25kV electrification.

 

NR has made a mess of this.

 

Regards

[The Stationmaster]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but there's some actual contact system (I.e. Catenary, contact wire and droppers, didn't notice how it's tensioned though) installed on the down fast (main?) near pangbourne now to go with the earth wire.

There is some on one of the Relief Lines - possibly both by now and maybe even spreading over to the Mains.  It's a short stretch west of Westbury Lane Bridge and I think in the general vicinity of the sewage farm.  Apart from a passing glance at the Swindon train installation I'm interested to see how the tensioning system works definitely different.  I noticed today that some of the structures in Pangbourne have now got an extra fittings near the top of the mast - would that be for a return wire?

 

I had a chat with a couple of contractors at Twyford yesterday - no orange gear of any sort but they were looking at the marked out sites for masts on the Up Relief platform.  I'm not sure how many piles they'll be involved with but one of them looked a bit alarmed when I told them about the concrete in the embankment west of the station, alas I forgot to tell them about the cable laid in iron (probably) pipes under one of the platforms but as it's now totally dead they won't damage anything apart from their tempers trying to sink piles through it (and they might miss it anyway of course).

 

Now while I don't live near it I don't think the overall appearance is too bad - definitely more structural steelwork than comparable headspan installations but equally I suspect it will be a lot less likely to fail than the headspan stuff on the ECML and presumably the whole job will be a lot 'stiffer' and better suited to coping with pantograph uplift forces and higher speeds.

 

However I still remain a bit puzzled about the way the job is being tackled - for instance between Kennet Bridge and the west end of Reading station most of the structures have been in place for a year or more (some since April last year) although the bracing for those which need it has been put in more recently.  But that's it - it's just the bare structural steelwork.  Go west of Scours Lane and some uprights are still not installed while only a couple of structures along the register arms are already in place leaving some structures more or less ready to wire while adjacent ones haven't even been erected - it all looks very odd.  Oxford Road Curve has had the structures in place for, probably, nearer two years than one   hardly 'core' to wire but it could have been done.

[brian daniels]

Have you noticed that the gantries at Reading are to a different design than the rest of what's being put up?

[Zomboid]

There will be an aerial feeder on 25kv insulators as well as the contact system, since it'll be an autotransformer system - other examples in the UK are on HS1 and the southern end of the MML.

And somewhere near Maidenhead I think I saw what looked like a sweet of industrial yoyos on one of the gantries, that might be related to the tensioning, but I wouldn't know.

 

OLE isn't designed to be pretty (generally, the bit through Bath will be an exception) but once its been there a while it'll just blend in. I wouldn't say the old stuff on the WCML makes a mess of the countryside in Hertfordshire...

[phil-b259]

 It seems to me that it is more of an eyesore than the original 1960s 25kV electrification.

 

It's not. Have a look at the 4 track sections of the WCML and you will see portal style gantries every bit as intrusive as the GWML ones. The ECML and MML employ head spans for their quad track sections - and while they may look atheistically pleasing, they are a lot more flimsy and far more prone to failure than the WCNL stuff. As such. You have a choice - bulky yet robust, or slimline yet flimsy. As any engineer or a commuter will attest, robust wins every time.

 

In any case I suspect that those complaining in the Thames Valley are motivated more by traditional NIMBY values than anything else (by which I mean "Development that occurred before I moved in",  such as a new luxury housing development is fine "but anything that comes afterwards must be opposed as it devalues what I have bought" mentality). Its an unavoidable fact that overhead electrification is by far the most efficient means of providing motive power to trains, and if you want it to be reliable, it needs to be robustly* engineered, to pretend anything else is true is delusion of the first order.

 

*Note 'robust' dies not necessarily equal 'ugly', but it does mean you cannot hide its visual presence. However fancy designs cost more and as such need to be paid for and to be brutally honest seeing as its only the residents that have kicked up rather than any statuary bodies, I am minded to say they should be the ones to contribute to the extra costs of 'pretty' OHLE

Edited December 19, 2015 by phil-b259

[Northroader]

I was looking at the new overhead near Pangbourne, and also at the overhead "school" just NE of Swindon station, and see that the catenary doesn't end in pulleys and a dirty great weight hanging down the side of a mast, but with a small "drum" placed more centrally over the track, as Zomboid says, which must be the tensioner. Clockwork spring inside??

[96701]

Although as a taxpayer I fully support electrification, as an enthusiast it can be a disaster. I'm not at all surprised that people living along the GWML are complaining about the intrusive nature of this electrification. It seems to me that it is more of an eyesore than the original 1960s 25kV electrification.

 

NR has made a mess of this.

 

Regards

In what way has NR made a mess of this? Aesthetically, financially, planning?

[brianusa]

Although as a taxpayer I fully support electrification, as an enthusiast it can be a disaster. I'm not at all surprised that people living along the GWML are complaining about the intrusive nature of this electrification. It seems to me that it is more of an eyesore than the original 1960s 25kV electrification.

 

NR has made a mess of this.

 

Regards

As an outsider looking in and a sometime follower of this thread, quite possibly the angst shown by some is because the GW has never been associated with OHW.  It was all right North of the capital and the Midlands but the GW was in the mellow Home Counties and the South West.  The presence of gantries and associated wiring would despoil their  beloved part of the country and maybe they are correct.  It does not look very good; maybe OK for Switzerland and other countries in Europe but not over the rails of the GW main line West!  It may make sense to accountants and other desk bound promoters and sadly its maybe the shape of things to come; we may even get used to it but is that the way life and railways should be, something to be tolerated and put up with?

 

Brian.

Edited December 18, 2015 by brianusa

[Ron Ron Ron]

I ....... see that the catenary doesn't end in pulleys and a dirty great weight hanging down the side of a mast, but with a small "drum" placed more centrally over the track, as Zomboid says, which must be the tensioner. Clockwork spring inside??

 

It's been widely known that they would be using this type of tensioning system and not the weights seen on older schemes.

There's a few photos and CGI images on the manufacturers web site.

 

http://www.furrerfrey.ch/en/systems/Series-1.html#

 

http://www.furrerfrey.ch/en/furrerfrey/news-overview/2015/q1/Installing-Series-1.html#prettyPhoto

 

 

 

.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[The Stationmaster]

As an outsider looking in and a sometime follower of this thread, quite possibly the angst shown by some is because the GW has never been associated with OHW.  It was all right North of the capital and the Midlands but the GW was in the mellow Home Counties and the South West.  The presence of gantries and associated wiring would despoil their  beloved part of the country and maybe they are correct.  It does not look very good; maybe OK for Switzerland and other countries in Europe but not over the rails of the GW main line West!  It may make sense to accountants and other desk bound promoters and sadly its maybe the shape of things to come; we may even get used to it but is that the way life and railways should be, something to be tolerated and put up with?

 

Brian.

The interesting thing is that glancing across to it east of Pangbourne where there is some catenary in place it isn't really noticeable.  The main thing which stands out at a distance is the masts and they will gradually weather in.  Closer up the gantry etc style of structures are much more obvious of course but you need to be pretty close to it for it to start spoiling your view.

[Reorte]

The interesting thing is that glancing across to it east of Pangbourne where there is some catenary in place it isn't really noticeable.  The main thing which stands out at a distance is the masts and they will gradually weather in.  Closer up the gantry etc style of structures are much more obvious of course but you need to be pretty close to it for it to start spoiling your view.

That's rather subjective, something doesn't have to stand out a lot to change the whole feel of a place. It's not helped that some people appear to regard that as utterly unimportant and start sneering at anyone with different values.