GWML Electification

[Titan]

The Severn Tunnel is included in the Paddington - Cardiff/Swansea scheme underway now (i believe it might be done using a more substantial conductor than normal contact wire - send for Titan, again).  Gloucester to STJcn would be presumably, and logically with Swindon- Gloucester, as a diversionary route plus a link to the Midlands.

 

Well it has to be said thart the Severn Tunnel is way off my patch and other than how long it is and its location, I pretty much know nothing about it!  However in tunnels, particularly twin track there is usually enough room for clearance to the OLE equipment, the difficulty is keeping the pan low enough so the horns don't get too close where the tunnel profile comes down at the edges. So fancy solutions like conductor beam, which is only suitable for low speed are unlikely to be used, but if its tight some form of track lowering and/or slewing may be necessary.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

In 30/40 years will railway engineers look back and think that picking up electricity from a piece of flimsy wire suspended above the track by means of a contraption on the roof of the loco, was such a crude way to do things?

 

Are there any other ways (possibly contactless) to get electricity into an electric loco?

[The Stationmaster]

In 30/40 years will railway engineers look back and think that picking up electricity from a piece of flimsy wire suspended above the track by means of a contraption on the roof of the loco, was such a crude way to do things?

 

Are there any other ways (possibly contactless) to get electricity into an electric loco?

Easy - use a diesel engine driving a generator - flexible as it can go anywhere that it fits, doesn't need any overhead wires or 3rd rail and doesn't rely on the National Grid.  I think I've already come across this idea so I won't claim it as novel 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Suppose they'd be diesel-hydraulics Mike.....

[The Stationmaster]

Suppose they'd be diesel-hydraulics Mike.....

Now that's an even better idea - weight saving as well

[Peter Kazmierczak]

And some could have two engines.....

Maybe name them after something to do with the armed services or as it's the line to the west, maybe ships. Or have a C-C type with an obscure Westerny theme to them.......

[RJS1977]

In 30/40 years will railway engineers look back and think that picking up electricity from a piece of flimsy wire suspended above the track by means of a contraption on the roof of the loco, was such a crude way to do things?

 

Are there any other ways (possibly contactless) to get electricity into an electric loco?

 

Connect one rail to one side of the electricity supply and one to the other side and pick up through the wheels (insulated axles, obviously)?

[Christopher125]

It would be interesting to see how fast one could climb the Lickey with an electric loco or unit?

Won't be long till we find out, 2016 I think for wires down to Bromgrove?

 

Well it has to be said thart the Severn Tunnel is way off my patch and other than how long it is and its location, I pretty much know nothing about it!  However in tunnels, particularly twin track there is usually enough room for clearance to the OLE equipment, the difficulty is keeping the pan low enough so the horns don't get too close where the tunnel profile comes down at the edges. So fancy solutions like conductor beam, which is only suitable for low speed are unlikely to be used, but if its tight some form of track lowering and/or slewing may be necessary.

Some interesting comments regarding the tunnel in this article:

 

As for the tunnels – the big one I guess you’re interested in on GW is the Severn which in fact is really quite an electrification-friendly tunnel with quite good clearances. From the initial survey work we’ve done already, we’ve found that the room in the roof of the tunnel is capable of accommodating normal low encumbrance equipment like we put in tunnels elsewhere in the UK. And it would also be perfectly appropriate to use solid beam technology through the tunnel. We will consider both options when we move into the detail design phase.

 

Chris

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Hi,

Note to everybody :

 

I meant to press the 'funny' button here not the 'disagree'.

Working on a damm touch screan tablet instead of proper laptop and finger touched down too quick.

 

To Stationmaster:

Mike, please accept my sincerest appologies for whats happened. I'm so very sorry to have given you a 'disagree'

 

Perhaps there's some way that Andy Y might be able to remove it or change it to my ontended 'funny'.

 

Regards

 

Just press the "Undo rating" tab where the icons were on the bottom right of the page.

[TheWeatheringMan]

Just press the "Undo rating" tab where the icons were on the bottom right of the page.

Hi Peter,

 

Many thanks indeed for your advice.

It might seem incredible but i've never noticed that option in grey letters !!.

 

Anyway i've done it and substituted what I intended.

 

Something new i've learnt.

 

Thanks again Peter.

 

Regards

Edited November 6, 2014 by TheWeatheringMan

[Xerces Fobe2]

Inductive contactless power supplies is the way forward  http://www.kconinternational.com/contactless-power-supply-system/

 

I think you will find that Tesla Cars will use this technology in the future for recharging.

 

XF

[Reading General]

Bluetooth ftw

[Joseph_Pestell]

Not a big Marklin enthusiast but I have always found that stud contact works very well. Doable now that Mk3 carriages are to be retrofitted with tank toilets.

[TheWeatheringMan]

Not a big Marklin enthusiast but I have always found that stud contact works very well. Doable now that Mk3 carriages are to be retrofitted with tank toilets.

Hi,

Cant see that this would either work  or be allowed as 3rd rail is now frowned upon on safety grounds.

Stud contact would offer the same dangers.

Yes many years ago there was a system - the Dolter System - that was used for street tramways to reduce the risk of electrocuting horses that used sprung studs.

Didnt work reliably at slow speeds so unlikely to work at passenger train speeds.

 

This thread is slipping into the realms of fantasy.

 

Regards

[Glorious NSE]

^Think it was a joke...

 

Never mind... 

[Xerces Fobe2]

In true W Heath -Robinson style -Giant bobbins with 350 miles of 3 phase cable located at Paddington and Penzance and plugged into into the rear of the trains with giant magnets on all summits to help trains up the inclines.

 

XF

[The Stationmaster]

Won't be long till we find out, 2016 I think for wires down to Bromgrove?

 

 

Some interesting comments regarding the tunnel in this article:

 

As for the tunnels – the big one I guess you’re interested in on GW is the Severn which in fact is really quite an electrification-friendly tunnel with quite good clearances. From the initial survey work we’ve done already, we’ve found that the room in the roof of the tunnel is capable of accommodating normal low encumbrance equipment like we put in tunnels elsewhere in the UK. And it would also be perfectly appropriate to use solid beam technology through the tunnel. We will consider both options when we move into the detail design phase.

 

Chris

Some of that 'interview;' comes over as rather disconnected from reality with this one taking the 1st Prize I reckon

 

For example, at Reading we will be putting in the foundations as part of the new arrangements. So we will at least have the foundations and steelwork in place in this sensitive area so the Reading project can get on with its work. The good citizens of Reading won’t have to suffer us coming along later to put the overhead line up! What has yet to be decided are the contracting arrangements for erecting the wiring to those structures.

 

But the good citizens of Reading will have to suffer exactly that - someone will be coming along later to put up the overhead wiring, and everything associated with it except the masts!

 

I wonder if this was the same project managing person who spoke to an IRSE meeting at York and went to great lengths explaining the difficulty of connecting the new control centre at Didcot to the existing interlockings?  At that point in the meeting someone asked him why the project wasn't using the standard interface designs and methods for linking contemporary control systems to WR E10,000 interlockings - said project manager was then duly lost for words and left floundering a very long way out of his depth  (especially when someone else in the audience told him that was exactly what was being done and no problems had been experienced!.

[siltec]

It would be interesting to see how fast one could climb the Lickey with an electric loco or unit?

It will fly up. EMUs ran up from Folkestone harbour for years. All had a switch only to be used on that climb. I believe it just switched the motors from being connected in serial to being connected in parallel.

Electric motors are well suited to hill climbing.

[Guest]

It will fly up. EMUs ran up from Folkestone harbour for years. All had a switch only to be used on that climb. I believe it just switched the motors from being connected in serial to being connected in parallel.

Electric motors are well suited to hill climbing.

 

I don't recall a special "Folkestone Harbour" switch on any of the units I drove! Shunt/Series/Parallel/Weakfield all just depend on how you "notch" the power handle, but I'd agree, electric motors and hills don't have to be incompatible.

 

Photograph by Paul Ferbrache

Edited November 20, 2014 by Pete 75C

[jamie92208]

The proposed Midland Main Line electrification in 1908 from Derby to Manchester was all about hill climbing.  It was aimed particularly at freight traffic heading up from Derby.

 

Jamie

[talisman56]

It will fly up. EMUs ran up from Folkestone harbour for years. All had a switch only to be used on that climb. I believe it just switched the motors from being connected in serial to being connected in parallel.

Electric motors are well suited to hill climbing.

 

The switch from series to parallel was part of the normal acceleration sequence. I found the following paragraph on the National Preservation forum from 'twofnine' that indicates the procedure (my emphasis):

 

We honestly believe that constant use of a 400 on that branch, would burn the resistances out eventually, and eventually burn the motors out. The CEPs, CIGs, and the VEPs have a Normal and Series switch in the Driving Cab. And that is the only time the switch was ever used on the Folkestone Branch. It gave us full series, and the speed up from the harbour was not much more than 10 mph, and upon arrival at the east; the resistances were very hot. They had of course cooled down after departure on route to Victoria getting into Weak Field.

[siltec]

I don't recall a special "Folkestone Harbour" switch on any of the units I drove! Shunt/Series/Parallel/Weakfield all just depend on how you "notch" the power handle, but I'd agree, electric motors and hills don't have to be incompatible.

 

cep_cab.jpg

Photograph by Paul Ferbrache

There was switch marked, ONLY TO BE USED ON FOLKESTONE HARBOUR. Drivers cab was easy to look into from corridor trains.

It was used, unofficially, as means of getting out of sticky situations. Care was needed as shoes could end up welded to the track.

[siltec]

The switch from series to parallel was part of the normal acceleration sequence. I found the following paragraph on the National Preservation forum from 'twofnine' that indicates the procedure (my emphasis):

 

We honestly believe that constant use of a 400 on that branch, would burn the resistances out eventually, and eventually burn the motors out. The CEPs, CIGs, and the VEPs have a Normal and Series switch in the Driving Cab. And that is the only time the switch was ever used on the Folkestone Branch. It gave us full series, and the speed up from the harbour was not much more than 10 mph, and upon arrival at the east; the resistances were very hot. They had of course cooled down after departure on route to Victoria getting into Weak Field.

Not sure what full series means. Motors were 325V and supply 650V so normal running was in series. Electric motors are very robust so running them at 650V for short periods was a practical proposition.

[roythebus]

Southern main line stock did indeed have the series/normal switch; it supposedly gave rapid acceleration up to full series and prevented the motors switching to parallel. It wasn't fitted to suburban stock. As stated, only to be used on Folkestone Harbour!

 

It was used unofficially for a very rapid get-away at times...

[Edwin_m]

Not sure what full series means. Motors were 325V and supply 650V so normal running was in series. Electric motors are very robust so running them at 650V for short periods was a practical proposition.

The motors would have the full 650V (or later 750V) across them when running in parallel or weak field.  In series they would see half the voltage each. 

 

The problem is the amount of current that would flow if the motors were connected in series at low speed.  The resistors are provided to limit this current but only rated for use for a short period while the train accelerates up to a speed when they are no longer needed.  I assume the problem at Folkestone was that the train was unable to reach that speed up the gradient so the resistors would stay in circuit for longer than intended.  Sounds also like the special switch would cut the resistors out at a lower speed, which would avoid problems with them overheating but could lead to the circuit breaker dropping out or something else getting hot. 

 

IIRC the DC EMUs also had a shunt notch that would keep all the resistors in circuit for very low speed running.  Not sure if this was allowed to be used for long periods though.