GWML Electification

[The Stationmaster]

Great Western goes electric

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/great-western-goes-electric.html

 

Part of that article puzzles me - it says a 12 car Cl.387 formation will offer 97 more seats than GWR's 'longest dmu formation'.  That sounds like total nonsense - the longest dmu formation they are likely to run is 9 cars and in reality I doubt they run anything longer than a 6 car train although I have seen 8 (with a 2 car set locked out of use and clearly simply a stock move.)

[4630]

.

Edited November 12, 2016 by 4630

[Budgie]

Part of that article puzzles me - it says a 12 car Cl.387 formation will offer 97 more seats than GWR's 'longest dmu formation'.  That sounds like total nonsense - the longest dmu formation they are likely to run is 9 cars and in reality I doubt they run anything longer than a 6 car train although I have seen 8 (with a 2 car set locked out of use and clearly simply a stock move.)

Perhaps they are referring to a HST as a DMU.

 

... and still nobody is producing Electrostar models.

[Titan]

I am very surprised at the UK government implementing legislation like this which has retrospective requirements as this has always been alien to our culture, though I fear that is changing. Everyone refers to this as EU legislation and assumes that it will cease to be relevant if/when we leave. However, much of our railway and other technical regulation comes from European standards bodies and organisations such as the UIC. That will not change.

But quite why all this slipped through our (too) many railway regulation bodies without anyone apparently noticing is a bit of a mystery as they should be involved in the drafting/ approving/vetting of any proposals in these organisations anyway.

But back to this particular case, would anyone really stand up and say that what was safe yesterday is not safe today, especially if he/she was involved in the earlier standards? There must be more to it that just clearance distances.

Jonathan

 

 

Unfortunately they have implemented the legislation. The main issue is contact wire height at stations, specifically the distance of the contact wire from the platform surface. Because of our higher platforms and shorter height trains, the contact wire tends to be a lot closer than it would be on the continent. This means that a very large number of Stations with OLE are now illegal, particularly where there are overbridges - and as most stations have either a footbridge or some other bridge that is near that means something that has been fine for 50 years+ all of a sudden isn't. It would not be so bad if it was just left as an EU directive, at least it may have been possible to get a derogation. However you cannot get a derogation against the law. It also means that when we leave the EU the act will still have to be repealed for the wiring to become legal again.

 

It can mean that wiring can become impossible - If the only way to get a legal wire height is to demolish a listed bridge, the only way not to break the law is to continue running diesel...

Edited September 6, 2016 by Titan

[Grovenor]

 Unfortunately they have implemented the legislation.

I don't see any reference to legislation in the article. What specific legislation are you referring to?

Thanks

Keith

[Edwin_m]

Part of that article puzzles me - it says a 12 car Cl.387 formation will offer 97 more seats than GWR's 'longest dmu formation'.  That sounds like total nonsense - the longest dmu formation they are likely to run is 9 cars and in reality I doubt they run anything longer than a 6 car train although I have seen 8 (with a 2 car set locked out of use and clearly simply a stock move.)

9 cars of 23m would be 207m and 12 cars of 20m would be 240m, both approximately.  97 extra seats in about 33m of extra train sound about right to me. 

[96701]

Unfortunately they have implemented the legislation. The main issue is contact wire height at stations, specifically the distance of the contact wire from the platform surface. Because of our higher platforms and shorter height trains, the contact wire tends to be a lot closer than it would be on the continent. This means that a very large number of Stations with OLE are now illegal, particularly where there are overbridges - and as most stations have either a footbridge or some other bridge that is near that means something that has been fine for 50 years+ all of a sudden isn't. It would not be so bad if it was just left as an EU directive, at least it may have been possible to get a derogation. However you cannot get a derogation against the law. It also means that when we leave the EU the act will still have to be repealed for the wiring to become legal again.

 

It can mean that wiring can become impossible - If the only way to get a legal wire height is to demolish a listed bridge, the only way not to break the law is to continue running diesel...

It's not just the contact wire. The pantograph is live equipment and a lot closer to people at stations than is the contact wire.

[Richard E]

On OHLE clearances has anyone noticed the 'buzz' created by using an umbrella (steel shafted) in wet weather on a platform alongside 25kV lines? Not sure if it also applies to carbon fibre shafts ....

[The Stationmaster]

9 cars of 23m would be 207m and 12 cars of 20m would be 240m, both approximately.  97 extra seats in about 33m of extra train sound about right to me. 

 

But they don't run trains that long Edwin.  Normal maximum with the 165s/166s is 5 or 6 cars and I have never seen a longer one than that during the peaks  (and they'll be/are the first to admit that many of their services are shorter than they would wish them to be because they simply don't have a large enough fleet.

It looks like a piece of marketing b*ll*cks put out by GWR that has just been swallowed without thinking by the Railway Gazette.

 

IMHO, it's meaningless from a passenger viewpoint (I was going to type 'standpoint', but I guess the hope is that passengers will no longer be standing in the new longer trains!) unless it's equated to the day and time that a passenger would actually be making the journey.

 

I'd suggest that if they want to make it more understandable, GWR should quote the total number of seats that will be available daily M-F on the new trains travelling in to London P from XXXX between say 07.00 and 0900, compared with the current position.

 

They have quoted various figures about the total number of extra seats their fleet changes will put into the marketplace on the Thames Valley but they no doubt have considerable difficulty giving some detail as they have still not sated exactly what service they are likely to be running once (it makes me)Cross rail starts helping itself to non-existent line capacity.

 

The cockeyed way in which the electrification has been done is also now coming home to roost - very adversely - for some passengers.  Reading (exclusive) - Didcot made very good sense as a trial site for Class 800 electric running although it is of course a year late but what is now emerging is electrification operational next May (possibly Relief Lines only?) from Airport Jcn to Maidenhead with electric services operated Paddington - Maidenhead by GWR 387s, an unknown situation between Maidenhead and Reading (currently at least 4 trains per hour off peak - and all fairly busy), due to a gap between Maidenhead and Reading.  If digits are extracted I reckon they ought to be able to wire almost to Twyford before then and maybe even through Twyford if they can get the masts erected there.  Then you get Sonning Cutting/Earley where the masts are hopefully now going in before you arrive at Kennet Bridge where the most recently installed masts went in months ago and the others have been there for years and could have been wired a long time ago while through Reading the final oddments of mast and boom installation (almost entirely west of the station) are now complete.  

 

GWR are obviously keen to get electric trains running but they can't run local services between Reading & Didcot until Reading is wired (although last week an earth wire had appeared over the first section immediately east of Scours Lane) notwithstanding that the workings planned for next week appear to be a mixture of set testing, timetable testing, and probably Driver training.

 

Why they couldn't start at one end and work towards the other end - thus allowing sensible electrically worked services to be introduced - seems to be beyond NR's thought and implementation processes.  

[Zomboid]

Why they couldn't start at one end and work towards the other end - thus allowing sensible electrically worked services to be introduced - seems to be beyond NR's thought and implementation processes.  

 

Feeder station location and the split between projects is the reason. Crossrail is providing the connection at North Pole, and is responsible for the wires as far as Maidenhead. The Great Western project is responsible from there outwards, and the first GW Feeder is at Didcot, so that's where the GW project starts wiring from so as not to be reliant on the Crossrail project. Makes perfect sense to do it this way when things are split in that manner.

 

You could argue that having the two projects separate might not be the greatest idea ever, but that's probably down to the history of the two projects, where Crossrail was confirmed first and wouldn't want to be dependent on the GW Project, and adding Maidenhead to Swansea to the scope of Crossrail would be a bit of a leap too.

[corneliuslundie]

But where in the laws of the Medes and the Persians does it say that the first GWR feeder must be at Didcot?

BTW, my wife remembers two news reports which may be relevant, though I don't understand how either happened.

The first was a man with a fishing rod on Luton platform who lost his arms when it touched the OLE. But since fishing rods are usually glass fibre I don't understand that one.

The second was of a boy being killed when he dangled a branch over a bridge and touched the OLE. Presumably the branch was wet.

I have no memory of these, but hers is usually remarkably good for apparently trivial past events.

On the other hand even apparently sensible people do silly things. The now deceased President of Welwyn Garden City & District Model Railway Club (now also itself deceased) had to be stopped by a members of railway staff from measuring Welwyn North footbridge with a steel tape for a P4 model.

Could one or both of these incidents have influenced UK design standards, rather than the changes coming from Europe or elsewhere?

But if they did it shows yet again that those who do risk assessments without leaving the office desk are dangerous people. How many people carry fishing rods, fully assembled, onto railway platforms each year? How many of those are killed? So what is the risk? Greater than zero - we must act now!

Or am I getting high on the antibiotics which currently fill me?

Jonathan

[Zomboid]

But where in the laws of the Medes and the Persians does it say that the first GWR feeder must be at Didcot?

 

The Power station & existing 400kV substation and the typical feeding distances on Autotransformer electrification mean that it's the best location for a connection.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Today was the first day in passenger use for the GWR 387s, 4 units in a pair of 8-car formations.

 

The Cl.387s seem to be departing Hayes & H on the down relief, ie westbound. Is this just an ECS move to cross to the up relief?

[jamie92208]

The Grid feeder points are one of the most expensive and long lead parts of any electrification scheme and in general new pylon routes are not provided to serve them, as mentioned above existing facilities are usually used.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

The Cl.387s seem to be departing Hayes & H on the down relief, ie westbound. Is this just an ECS move to cross to the up relief?

 

Yes I noticed that - and wondered where they are crossing over in order to come back on the Up Relief as he certainly set off rather smartly?

[The Stationmaster]

Feeder station location and the split between projects is the reason. Crossrail is providing the connection at North Pole, and is responsible for the wires as far as Maidenhead. The Great Western project is responsible from there outwards, and the first GW Feeder is at Didcot, so that's where the GW project starts wiring from so as not to be reliant on the Crossrail project. Makes perfect sense to do it this way when things are split in that manner.

 

You could argue that having the two projects separate might not be the greatest idea ever, but that's probably down to the history of the two projects, where Crossrail was confirmed first and wouldn't want to be dependent on the GW Project, and adding Maidenhead to Swansea to the scope of Crossrail would be a bit of a leap too.

 

I understand that but what are the apparent feeder/transformer locations at Pangbourne, Reading and Twyford for - step up voltage or balancing?  (None of them appear to be connected to the main electricity network, or certainly not visibly so, and all appear to be complete although as yet only the Pangbourne one is connected to the ohle - for obvious reasons.)  There are others going in at various locations further west although none, except possibly the one at Reading, are as large as the set-up at Foxhall Junction.

 

And of course having started with Reading (Scours Lane) - Didcot (almost Milton) they could have worked east from there to meet the Crossrail contract area at Maidenhead.

 

Incidentally one thought which has since gone through my head this evening is that while the 'traincare' depot at Reading is fully wired there might still be a gap between it and Scours Lane as that appeared to be the case last week when only an earth wire was in place - presumably scheduled to be fully wired by next Monday?

Edited September 6, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

The Grid feeder points are one of the most expensive and long lead parts of any electrification scheme and in general new pylon routes are not provided to serve them, as mentioned above existing facilities are usually used.

 

Jamie

 

And most of that sort of stuff seems to have been in place well on schedule on the GWML - the one at Reading was virtually complete nearly a year ago.

[Banger Blue]

The 387s are reversing at Airport Jn.

 

As for the amount of seats, I don't know the total of seats on a 387 but the current LTV fleet are:

 

150/0: 239 seats

165(2 car): 186

165(3 car): 286

166: 257

 

That may have reduced slightly with the fitting of the new Universally Accessible Toilet but I'm not sure on that.

 

The paths that are in the system from Reading - Didcot are for driver training. It's the same diagram and has several trips from the Tilehurst end of Reading TCD (Connection A) to the goods loop just west of Didcot Stn (Didcot WB = Didcot West Box???) where it reverses. I wouldn't hold my breath for this starting next week, the depot isn't energised yet although work has been carried out to connect the depot to the reliefs over the last few weekends plus we have no 387s at the depot yet!

[DavidB-AU]

As for the amount of seats, I don't know the total of seats on a 387 but the current LTV fleet are:

 

150/0: 239 seats

165(2 car): 186

165(3 car): 286

166: 257

The diagrams I've seen show 226 seats. 60 in each DMOS, 62 in the MOSL and 44 + 2 wheelchair spaces in the PTOSL.

 

Cheers

David

[Zomboid]

I understand that but what are the apparent feeder/transformer locations at Pangbourne, Reading and Twyford for - step up voltage or balancing? (None of them appear to be connected to the main electricity network, or certainly not visibly so, and all appear to be complete although as yet only the Pangbourne one is connected to the ohle - for obvious reasons.) There are others going in at various locations further west although none, except possibly the one at Reading, are as large as the set-up at Foxhall Junction.

They're autotransformer connection points. Essentially it's for voltage balancing, but it's more complex than that - if you want to understand more then wiki/ Google can explain much better than me.

[St. Simon]

Yes I noticed that - and wondered where they are crossing over in order to come back on the Up Relief as he certainly set off rather smartly?

 

Hi,

 

The sequence is:

 

• Arrive at Platform 3 (Down Relief)
• Drop the Passengers
• Depart on the Down Relief (ECS)
• Crossover via 8200 points to run bang road on the Up Relief
• Turnout to the Up Airport Relief running in the down direction
• Run to the Rear Clear Markers on the Up Airport Relief (4 or 8 car depending on train length), these can be seen in Pete Kazmierczaks pictures a couple of months back.
• Change Ends
• Run from the Up Airport Relief onto the Up Relief into Platform 4
• Pick up Passengers
• Depart from Platform 4

This sequence is only a temporary measure until Christmas when 8200 points will be removed and a new set (8195) will be installed, with all the additional signalling, at the East end of the station so trains arriving from Paddington on the Down Relief can cross over into the Bay Platform and then depart on the Up Relief

 

Simon

[The Stationmaster]

The 387s are reversing at Airport Jn.

 

As for the amount of seats, I don't know the total of seats on a 387 but the current LTV fleet are:

 

150/0: 239 seats

165(2 car): 186

165(3 car): 286

166: 257

 

That may have reduced slightly with the fitting of the new Universally Accessible Toilet but I'm not sure on that.

 

The paths that are in the system from Reading - Didcot are for driver training. It's the same diagram and has several trips from the Tilehurst end of Reading TCD (Connection A) to the goods loop just west of Didcot Stn (Didcot WB = Didcot West Box???) where it reverses. I wouldn't hold my breath for this starting next week, the depot isn't energised yet although work has been carried out to connect the depot to the reliefs over the last few weekends plus we have no 387s at the depot yet!

 

At Didcot they are shown as running to Didcot West End to reverse - good job I had the Up Relief converted into a reversal goods loop something over 20 years ago  (I had wondered if anyone would bother to convert it back with the resignalling but it does make a handy reversing siding and by not converting it back it does keep the maximum usable length of course).

 

There are three trips booked - if they run and reputedly (if Realtime trains is to be believed) a Class 387 set will arrive at Reading over the weekend according to my informant.  IF I get a chance and we go shopping in the right location tomorrow I shall try to pop down Scours Lane and see if any catenary has appeared.

[St. Simon]

the depot isn't energised yet although work has been carried out to connect the depot to the reliefs over the last few weekends

 

Hi,

 

On my 'new' commute from Reading to Tilehurst over the past couple of days, I have noticed an RRV in the Depot carrying out electrification works, so it might happen slightly quicker than we think

 

Simon

[Talltim]

Network rail statement on the issues in Scotland

http://www.egip.info/news/2016/09/clarification-on-recent-press-articles

[WCML100]

Going back to the introductions over the 387's this week?

 

I thought these were taking. Over the paths of the greenford services which would then shift over and terminate in the new bay at west ealing. But as a regular commuter from paddington to west drayton, i have found all this week that services still operating to greenford acording to the digital displays at paddington. Is this just me or what? Simon probably knows the answer...