Highlandman Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Why do we need bigger and bigger lorries on our roads. For large freight consignments and bulk the railways are much more suited to carrying this type of items. More environmentally friendly, quicker, and possibly cheaper. This video , I think, shows why we should want to keep these 'mega-trucks' off our roads. http://youtu.be/MJeM8vsiHhs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Not the most unbiased presentation, that. It definitely takes a few liberties with facts (heavier long trucks do not necessarily add more strain to structures, and may actually do less damage) and attributes to mega-trucks some issues that already exist and are not exclusive to them (the width on contraflow, for example, since the mega-truck is no wider than a regular lorry). Also, wouldn't adding rail connections to factories increase the number of grade crossings? For reference, we now have some twin-53 rigs on major highways here (cab + 2x 53' trailer - approx 38m). Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 ...it doesn't make sense for one transport system to be overloaded to the point of being a victim of its own flexibility/efficiency with the associated delays/expenses when incentives can be offered to promote/improve alternatives. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I think it depends on the fortunes of the growing bulk freights of biomass and containers really. As proved over and over again, wagonload and marshalling doesn't pay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted November 27, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2013 At the end of the day, we, the customer want/need/demand low prices for the goods we buy, so therefore solutions such as this will be found. Would the general public give a toss how the shelves are filled as long as the price is right? We can't have it both ways. It's an accountant run world. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 The UK has many smaller roads which are shown on SatNavs. I live in a village that includes such streets and when the nearby trunk and A roads are blocked, we get huge articulated usually foreign operated lorries through our village. We have had curbs destroyed, drains crushed, overhead lines ripped out, parked cars damaged and pedestrians & cyclists frightened. I accept so much of our distribution has to go by road but we cannot cope with mega-trucks. If they are allowed onto UK roads, they have to be restricted to within 1 km of a motorway or motorway junction. HMG wants to build HS2; that route will not accommodate freight nor relieve the existing loading on passenger services between Euston and Birmingham (look at the M6 toll as an example) so will not create more capacity for freight on the present section of the WCML. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted November 27, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2013 At the end of the day, we, the customer want/need/demand low prices for the goods we buy, so therefore solutions such as this will be found. Would the general public give a toss how the shelves are filled as long as the price is right? We can't have it both ways. It's an accountant run world. Mike. You're quite right Mike, we live in a very price conscious world. Maybe price is the genuine number one concern of Joe public but maybe they are overly influenced by politics and the media who put great emphasis on personal monetary wealth at the expense of other factors. If we were to ask of wider society what sort of world they would like to live in we might get answers that would contradict the notion that everything has to be delivered at the lowest possible price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 There are two questions here. One is, can these mega-trucks be safely accommodated on our roads (UK and wider Europe). The other is about putting some of the road freight traffic onto rail. Both questions are not mutually exclusive, but let's not cloud the matter by mixing these different questions up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catkins Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 There are two questions here. One is, can these mega-trucks be safely accommodated on our roads (UK and wider Europe). The other is about putting some of the road freight traffic onto rail. Both questions are not mutually exclusive, but let's not cloud the matter by mixing these different questions up. In answer to your first question these Mega-Trucks are already in use in Holland and Scandinavia, and they can be formed of either an ordinary rigid bodied truck towing a 45' trailer, or a Tractor unit towing two trailers - the two trailers can be a 30' trailer with a "fifth wheel" coupling to couple up a 45' trailer, or a 45' trailer with a drawbar coupling to tow a 24' trailer. In holland there is also the option of an ordinary rigid bodied truck towing two 24' drawbar trailers. It was tried here in the UK by Denby Haulage of Lincoln, but the truck didn't even get out of the yard before it was stopped by the police. In answer to your second question, I suspect that what will happen is that any introduction will start with specific flows and originating or terminal points for the road section, much like the 44Tonne weight limit introduction, but after a while the restrictions will be removed. I can see these being a good idea for container flows, but That's about it. The ultimate decider on any increase in commercial vehicle lengths is how many delivery locations will be able to accept them? The current trials that are being done in Britain with 48' and 51' long trailers are not proving popular because the customer premises are not capable of taking the extra length. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 It's notable that, even in Australia, where road-trains and other multi-combination trucks are common, such vehicles do not operate "as-of-right" under the law but are individually permitted on a nominally case-by-case basis. Whilst many combinations are sufficiently sdtandard that the issue of their permits is routine, it is still the case that every multi-combination vehicle is individually known to the government. In addition, such vehicles are only allowed to operate on specific parts of the road network, as specified in their permit conditions, with stiff penalties applying if they are caught off-route. So, even in Australia, where the road infrastructure is largely capable of accomodating such vehicles, their operation is certainly not a free-for-all. If what is proposed in Europe is largely unregulated or applicable regulations are not rigorously enforced I think it's a generally bad idea. All that said, I ddn't like the video much. Many of the issuers it raises are not the specific province of multi-combination vehicles. Regular semi-trailers and heavy rigids can already cause obstruction or flatten other road users quite satisfactorily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 28, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2013 I fully support incentivising environmentally less damaging modes of transport and also safer modes of transport. The problem is that there is so much political spin on all sides of the argument that it is a minefield and depending on how you define the various parameters it is possible to argue a case for just about anything. In general I think bulk commodities should go by rail or coastal shipping (potentially inland water way shipping too where there are navigable rivers and canals) or in pipeline for bulk liquids where it is viable but it gets a lot more complex for smaller volume flows. And even for bulk flows there shouldn't be an assumption that rail and sea are green as depending on the mode of power, emissions, utilisation etc trains and ships may not necessarily be particularly green. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 .......even for bulk flows there shouldn't be an assumption that rail and sea are green as depending on the mode of power, emissions, utilisation etc trains and ships may not necessarily be particularly green. Indeed. Transporting coal for burning in coal-fired power stations, in oil burning ships and behind oil burning diesel locomotives must be a classic example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 A lot of the problem is probably down to most companies working on a 'just-in-time' delivery model for their goods. This isn't particularly suited to the railways, where wagons might have to be marshalled en route taking time. Wagonload freight also seems to have fallen by the wayside because the extra handling required by the railways to pick up/route/deliver individual wagons just isn't cost effective compared to sending the goods in a truck. Asda have a rail connected site in Warrington (rail connection inherited from previous occupiers of the site but unused by Asda) and just built a massive new distribution centre in Avonmouth on a site that was rail connected until redeveloped for Asda. Their Falkirk centre is adjacent to a line which could have easily been reconnected back to Grangemouth at the time of building if it had been viable. Their Washington centre is on the other side of the fence from the Leamside line. Yet with that ease to rail connect these sites for rail distribution to trunk what can amount to 20 or 30 lorryloads a day still doesn't add up cost wise so lorries are used instead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Of course, one of the main cost disadvantages of rail over road is that rail has to pay for all its own infrastructure, whereas road transport is able to piggyback off roads built and paid for by all of us, and so much of the infrastructure and social cost is hidden. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Yanks have the answer !! Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted November 28, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 28, 2013 Yanks have the answer !! Brit15 That would make a good hard shoulder up the middle of the M1. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 HMG wants to build HS2; that route will not accommodate freight nor relieve the existing loading on passenger services between Euston and Birmingham (look at the M6 toll as an example) so will not create more capacity for freight on the present section of the WCML. Of course it will, by removing long distance intercity traffic and so allowing a consolidation of existing fast, semi-fast and slow services on the WCML to free up paths for freight. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointstaken Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 In so many places, goods yards/sidings have been removed and the land sold off, so how would items be delivered ? Seems to be an attempt to recall the (imagined) halcyon days of the local/country station goods yard. Sorry, in the main you are far too late. Dennis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiles Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Working in the freight/logistics industry where we are free to choose the most suitable mode to use for each traffic flow I have reasonable experience of moving things from A to B. Sadly, one of the biggest stumbling blocks to using rail to move containers is the frankly appalling attitude to their customers by the rail operating companies. Trains frequently don't run as scheduled meaning missed delivery slots and angry customers. The general attitude from all the big three (DB Schenker, Freightliner and GBRf) is "so what guv!", "Not our fault", "just the way it is" and many more. I even have customers that specifically state I must not use rail for any part of their deliveries. Past experiences have been so bad with whole swathes of missed deliveries and frankly a "don't give a damn" response from the rail operators. As a person with a life-long interest in rail I'd love nothing more than to move my containers by rail but sadly it won't be happening anytime soon without some radical changes. For my company it would be suicide! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Jonboy Posted December 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2013 It was tried here in the UK by Denby Haulage of Lincoln, but the truck didn't even get out of the yard before it was stopped by the police. Am I right in thinking this was a staged setup to hopefully lead to a test case over the use of these trucks? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted December 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2013 much as i'm all for keeping freight on rails (if only to keep me in a job!) why does that "presentation" put me in mind of this...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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