Hornby Eurostar

[Multiple identity account 2]

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been posted already. I was just going through Hornby's twitter page and came across a post regarding the Eurostar set R3215 which was supposed to be in the new Eurostar livery.

The post stated that the livery on the real units are still not finalized and so the set will appear in the normal Eurostar livery. However Hornby also stated that it is due in November (end) as opposed to the announcement made on their website saying 2014. Is the fact that they are reverting back to the older livery helped them produce the set in 2013? Or have I been confused by something somewhere?

R3215 was supposed to be the the set that is now fitted with directional lighting I think??!

Cheers!

[McC]

Anyone have details on this set ( R3293 is the listing at Hornby and hattons )

[sga962]

R3215 was supposed to be the the set that is now fitted with directional lighting I think??!

 

Hope that's true, they'll have finally fixed one of the many problems with their eurostar

[Traksy]

Should we be expecting directional lights only or some other tooling updates as well?

[Multiple identity account 2]

Should we be expecting directional lights only or some other tooling updates as well?

"Directional lights" only....

 

I think Hornby's view on these modern EMUs is that the don't have too many fine details on them so they seem to have stuck with a simple old mould. Same goes for the Javelin. These models are just slick and aerodynamic So Hornby won't bother about any upgrades. Re the Eurostar's motor I have only seen good reviews about it and it has excellent speed. So I doubt that will be changed. It just needed lights.

[jonathan452]

Should we be expecting directional lights only or some other tooling updates as well?

The feature most in need of upgrading are the ridiculously underscale corridor connections. Looks as if they are to HO Scale - a-la the previous Jouef version - maybe a consequence of it being rushed out for Christmas. In reality anybody over four foot high would need to duck their head.

 

"Directional lights" only....

 

I think Hornby's view on these modern EMUs is that the don't have too many fine details on them so they seem to have stuck with a simple old mould. Same goes for the Javelin. These models are just slick and aerodynamic So Hornby won't bother about any upgrades. Re the Eurostar's motor I have only seen good reviews about it and it has excellent speed. So I doubt that will be changed. It just needed lights.

The Javelin is a far more recent offering than the Eurostar, the former dating from the Margate production days (noting also my comments above).

 

It is a better model all round and in far less need of any improvement/upgrade. (The Class 90 and 92 should take precedence.)

[Traksy]

No new tooling = me skipping the purchase. Hornby's stance on the issue appears to be "if it's modern, it's ok to look like crap".... that isn't my stance though....

Lets see if we are going to get a proper Class 374 Velaro when the real machines arrive or if Hornby is going to ignore them altogether like everything else with a pantograph.

[pheaton]

Both the Eurostar and the javelin were released originally as trainsets, im yet to see a super detailed model in a trainset.....

 

Hornby if anything have embraced models with a pantograph..... releasing no less than 5 different models with a pantograph, how many from Bachmann until recently 1, how many from Heljan again only 3 and 2 of those were woodhead.....

 

how many layouts at Warley had overhead catenary? far far less than layouts without....

 

the class 90 which I don't recall has ever been released in trainset form was sold with Hornby overhead caternary system in mind (hence the overhead pickup) but that's long out of production (still fetches ridiculous money on ebay)

 

so there limited scope for profit on ohle models the point is theres probably no justifiable profit in todays market to satisfy modellers with a super detail OHLE locomotive so its unlikely Hornby is going to invest in updating any tooling. So there going to realise far more profit from a conventional diesel or steam locomotive because more people are likely to buy them.

 

Ironically its the opposite on the continent....but then electric traction is far more prominent over there.

 

If catenary became easier to model then you may well see the transition shift more towards the area you are interested in.

[Ron Ron Ron]

No new tooling = me skipping the purchase. Hornby's stance on the issue appears to be "if it's modern, it's ok to look like crap".... that isn't my stance though....

Lets see if we are going to get a proper Class 374 Velaro when the real machines arrive or if Hornby is going to ignore them altogether like everything else with a pantograph.

 

Too right.

Ignore this model, it's a pile of dated toy rubbish, intended for children's train sets of yesteryear.

As to modern....errr no!  The prototype is now 20 years old and about to undergo a major revamp to see it through the final 10 - 15 years of service.

 

Hopefully Hornby will leave the Class 374 well alone and open the path for another manufacturer to produce a decent model, rather than another kid's "toy".

 

 

Yours

Angry of Chipping norton.

[Multiple identity account 2]

 Hornby's stance on the issue appears to be "if it's modern, it's ok to look like crap".... that isn't my stance though....

Lets see if we are going to get a proper Class 374 Velaro when the real machines arrive or if Hornby is going to ignore them altogether like everything else with a pantograph.

 

Couldn't agree with you more!!! 

[Fenman]

... Hornby's stance on the issue appears to be "if it's modern, it's ok to look like crap".... that isn't my stance though....

Lets see if we are going to get a proper Class 374 Velaro when the real machines arrive or if Hornby is going to ignore them altogether like everything else with a pantograph.

 

When both the Eurostar and the 395 models were released, Hornby made it clear they were targeted at the toy market and not the modeller market. They have never pretended these models were for people who read RMweb.

 

They have certainly never said "it it's modern, it's ok to look like crap" and, if you're looking for evidence that Hornby are not at all prejudiced in the era from which they produce low-fi toys rather than detailed models, their catalogue also contains many plasticky lumps which allegedly represent items of steam traction.

 

Would you rather that no-one produced low-fi, cheap, robust toy trains? If, in fact, you were the only market which all the manufacturers served?

 

Paul

[Purley Oaks]

When both the Eurostar and the 395 models were released, Hornby made it clear they were targeted at the toy market and not the modeller market. They have never pretended these models were for people who read RMweb.

Why would Hornby produce both regular (R4452/3) and Railroad (R4438) centre cars for the 395 Javelin? Both in their 2013 catalogue...

Mal

[Traksy]

When both the Eurostar and the 395 models were released, Hornby made it clear they were targeted at the toy market and not the modeller market. They have never pretended these models were for people who read RMweb.

 

They have certainly never said "it it's modern, it's ok to look like crap" and, if you're looking for evidence that Hornby are not at all prejudiced in the era from which they produce low-fi toys rather than detailed models, their catalogue also contains many plasticky lumps which allegedly represent items of steam traction.

 

Would you rather that no-one produced low-fi, cheap, robust toy trains? If, in fact, you were the only market which all the manufacturers served?

 

Paul

 

I have no problem with Hornby releasing toy models. I never said I have.

Hornby have severe prejudice against modern era. Have you tried to model anything in modern era? Unless you go specifically for a non electrified niche station you will find it absolutely impossible. EMUs are non existent. AC locos are non existent (Hornby dropped them entirely this year). This means that everywhere where there is catenary or third rail EMUs, as far as Hornby is concerned, is out. Most major termini are out. All electric commuter lines throughout the country are out (thank Bachmann for 350s, though). What you have from Hornby is HSTs and diesel locos. I understand that steam also has some old tooling models but the scope is not at all comparable. You can successfully and with great detail model steam.....unlike modern. I think I am justified in my statement about Eurostar.

 

The argument that electric is not desired for modelling in my opinion does not hold water. It is so because there has not been done any proper sampling to my knowledge. Lets look at my buying pattern. The majority of my purchases are diesels, reason being that in modern they are by far the best models out there, both in quantity and quality. If you look at the profit destribution Hornby is getting from me diesel is the winner. So of course Hornby would prefer to stick to diesel, right? No! The reason this is the case is because they have not supplied good electric traction. If they had the profit distibution would have been the other way around and I am pretty sure I am not the only one here.

I am not making a case electric is more profitable than diesel here. I am making the case electric is likely not so profitable because it's undersupplied.

[Matabiau]

Why would Hornby produce both regular (R4452/3) and Railroad (R4438) centre cars for the 395 Javelin? Both in their 2013 catalogue...

Mal

Hornby produced two versions, a Railroad and a full specification version. The full spec version has a higher level of printed detail, is DCC ready, has directional lighting and close coupling. It is far better than the Hornby Eurostar although not quite in the league of the Bachmann Blue Pullman! (sorry to have mentioned these two models in the same phrase). I believe it's not a bad model, but something about it is not quite right, it still has that feeling of a lightweight plastic train. 

[andyman7]

I have no problem with Hornby releasing toy models. I never said I have.

Hornby have severe prejudice against modern era. Have you tried to model anything in modern era? Unless you go specifically for a non electrified niche station you will find it absolutely impossible. EMUs are non existent. AC locos are non existent (Hornby dropped them entirely this year). This means that everywhere where there is catenary or third rail EMUs, as far as Hornby is concerned, is out. Most major termini are out. All electric commuter lines throughout the country are out (thank Bachmann for 350s, though). What you have from Hornby is HSTs and diesel locos. I understand that steam also has some old tooling models but the scope is not at all comparable. You can successfully and with great detail model steam.....unlike modern. I think I am justified in my statement about Eurostar.

It's not just Hornby, and it's not just now. When I was growing up by the WCML, the model shops were full of bright green Flying Scotsman engines and bright red Duchesses but an overhead AC electric could not be had (this was several years after the Triang E3001 had been deleted). The only DMU was the ancient Triang one. Finally Hornby brought out an 86 and Lima an 87 - not great models but better than nothing.

 

Fast forward to today and there are glaring gaps is the modern traction roster but it is better than the 70s - at least you can get a Desiro, or a 153, or a 170; there is a decent 85. The fundamental issue is that the market for these things just isn't as bog as that for shiny green or red engines and when resources are scarce, there are going to be gaps. At least the range of kits and other sources for buliding your own are better than when your only other choice was MTK!

[andyman7]

Hornby produced two versions, a Railroad and a full specification version. The full spec version has a higher level of printed detail, is DCC ready, has directional lighting and close coupling. It is far better than the Hornby Eurostar although not quite in the league of the Bachmann Blue Pullman! (sorry to have mentioned these two models in the same phrase). I believe it's not a bad model, but something about it is not quite right, it still has that feeling of a lightweight plastic train. 

My son has the Railroad 395 and absolutely loves it. I wish that there had been a child friendly version of a modern EMU in the 1970s! It may not be your market but I can confirm that Hornby does have a market for this model. 

[Matabiau]

I think most people here, including myself, recognize the benefits of the Railroad series. They are good value, robust and in the main resemble the prototype. As such they are ideal for beginners, youngsters and those who want a cheap base for modeling projects. What annoys myself and many others with Hornby is the lack of quality of certain models in the main range that do not merit their place, and certainly not their price-tag.

 

I personally would be in the front of the queue for some decent EMUs, third rail or overhead AC. Hornby only seems to be interested in high profile AC electrics  (Eurostar, Pendolino, Javelin, APT). Hopefully their successful foray into pre-nationalization third rail electrics will provoke them to try some early overhead electrics! 

[Fenman]

I have no problem with Hornby releasing toy models. I never said I have.

Hornby have severe prejudice against modern era. Have you tried to model anything in modern era? Unless you go specifically for a non electrified niche station you will find it absolutely impossible.

...

(thank Bachmann for 350s, though). What you have from Hornby is HSTs and diesel locos.

 

 

So first Hornby's stance is, according to you, "if it's modern, it's ok to look like crap", and now Hornby have a "severe" prejudice against the modern era? Not sure how this squares with your admission that Hornby produce HSTs and diesel locos - and some of the latter, according to Model Rail, are the best diesel loco models on the market.

 

But you also state that it is "absolutely impossible" to model modern electric railways before mentioning the rather fine Bachmann 350. Dapol have announced a model of a loco so new that it hasn't yet even entered service in the UK (though off the top of my head I can't remember if that's the diesel or the electric version).

 

I would love it if Hornby dedicated their entire programme to satisfying my personal modelling needs, producing to the highest standards those models I "need" (have a look at my avatar for one). But while I realise that is unreasonable, I also think that they, and Bachmann and the others, are businesses, and the chances of them having a "severe prejudice" against an entire sector of the market (one that may deliver much-needed profits) is slight.

 

What they will have prejudices about is how the market has actually reacted to new products; that's why it's so fascinating that Bachmann's 350 has not (yet?) been followed-up with another modern image EMU. Maybe the number of 350s you can see in bargain bins at model shops tells you something about the market?

 

Paul

[Paul Cram]

I have no problem with Hornby releasing toy models. I never said I have.

Hornby have severe prejudice against modern era. Have you tried to model anything in modern era? Unless you go specifically for a non electrified niche station you will find it absolutely impossible. EMUs are non existent. AC locos are non existent (Hornby dropped them entirely this year). This means that everywhere where there is catenary or third rail EMUs, as far as Hornby is concerned, is out. Most major termini are out. All electric commuter lines throughout the country are out (thank Bachmann for 350s, though). What you have from Hornby is HSTs and diesel locos. I understand that steam also has some old tooling models but the scope is not at all comparable. You can successfully and with great detail model steam.....unlike modern. I think I am justified in my statement about Eurostar.

 

The argument that electric is not desired for modelling in my opinion does not hold water. It is so because there has not been done any proper sampling to my knowledge. Lets look at my buying pattern. The majority of my purchases are diesels, reason being that in modern they are by far the best models out there, both in quantity and quality. If you look at the profit destribution Hornby is getting from me diesel is the winner. So of course Hornby would prefer to stick to diesel, right? No! The reason this is the case is because they have not supplied good electric traction. If they had the profit distibution would have been the other way around and I am pretty sure I am not the only one here.

I am not making a case electric is more profitable than diesel here. I am making the case electric is likely not so profitable because it's undersupplied.

You are completely overlooking the fact that the most popular period is the Steam to diesel transition period. I do not model that and none of the manufacturers produce models that I want so I build kits. Is this because they are prejudiced against pre group NER? No it is because it is a small  market and with limited production capacity they would rather serve the popular period. Rather than moan why don't you try to do your own models from kits if available or from scratch. If there is such a large untapped market perhaps you could produce your own kits?

[Traksy]

So first Hornby's stance is, according to you, "if it's modern, it's ok to look like crap", and now Hornby have a "severe" prejudice against the modern era? Not sure how this squares with your admission that Hornby produce HSTs and diesel locos - and some of the latter, according to Model Rail, are the best diesel loco models on the market.

 

 

 Squares just fine once you try to actually model it and realize you can't do anything it practice because the major player in modern railways is in fact electric.

 

 

But you also state that it is "absolutely impossible" to model modern electric railways before mentioning the rather fine Bachmann 350. Dapol have announced a model of a loco so new that it hasn't yet even entered service in the UK (though off the top of my head I can't remember if that's the diesel or the electric version).

 

If you go through my post you will notice I specifically mentioned "as far as Hornby is concerned". I have not posted anything criticizing Dapol in this regard, in fact I specifically applauded them for choosing the 68 and showing interest in the 88 in another thread. By the way, even if you include the Bachmann's 350 you still can't model modern era not the least for the lack of accompanying infrastructure such as catenary but this is not the point I was making at all.

 

 

I would love it if Hornby dedicated their entire programme to satisfying my personal modelling needs, producing to the highest standards those models I "need" (have a look at my avatar for one). But while I realise that is unreasonable, I also think that they, and Bachmann and the others, are businesses, and the chances of them having a "severe prejudice" against an entire sector of the market (one that may deliver much-needed profits) is slight.

 

The last time Hornby released a new electric loco was around 1995. This year alone Hornby released 5 new steam locomotives and Hornby International are releasing new electric (both EMUs and ACs) on an yearly basis.... and I am the one getting criticized here for wanting just a fraction of what everyone is getting? ... wow...

 

What they will have prejudices about is how the market has actually reacted to new products; that's why it's so fascinating that Bachmann's 350 has not (yet?) been followed-up with another modern image EMU. Maybe the number of 350s you can see in bargain bins at model shops tells you something about the market?

 

If we get rid of all steam locomotive except a few with old tooling and a single detailed one, remove quite a bit of the accompanying infrastructure and then this detail loco happens to hit the bargain box in some stores, do I get to tell steam fans how they want the entire program to themselves? No, because I actually want my fellow modelers to be happy despite I don't model what they do and would still prefer a fair distributions of items.

[Ron Ron Ron]

When both the Eurostar and the 395 models were released, Hornby made it clear they were targeted at the toy market and not the modeller market. They have never pretended these models were for people who read RMweb.

 

 

Why would Hornby produce both regular (R4452/3) and Railroad (R4438) centre cars for the 395 Javelin? Both in their 2013 catalogue...

Mal

 

 

Hornby produced two versions, a Railroad and a full specification version. The full spec version has a higher level of printed detail, is DCC ready, has directional lighting and close coupling. It is far better than the Hornby Eurostar although not quite in the league of the Bachmann Blue Pullman! (sorry to have mentioned these two models in the same phrase). I believe it's not a bad model, but something about it is not quite right, it still has that feeling of a lightweight plastic train. 

 

I would classify the two Hornby versions of the Class 395 as.....

 

For the regular version - it's what I would call train set quality, similar to their Pendolino. As Matabiau says it's lightweight and plasticy feeling and certainly lacks the quality of for example, the Class 350, 4CEP or Blue Pullman.

 

The RailRoad version - really a child's toy and even below the standard of many Hornby models sold with the RailRoad tag.

 

IMHO, this is sadly just another example of Hornby's confusing branding and price structure, where the Pendolino train sets and Class 395 are sold under the main range, when they really belong in the RailRoad range.

 

 

.

[Dunsignalling]

 Squares just fine once you try to actually model it and realize you can't do anything it practice because the major player in modern railways is in fact electric.

 

 

 

If you go through my post you will notice I specifically mentioned "as far as Hornby is concerned". I have not posted anything criticizing Dapol in this regard, in fact I specifically applauded them for choosing the 68 and showing interest in the 88 in another thread. By the way, even if you include the Bachmann's 350 you still can't model modern era not the least for the lack of accompanying infrastructure such as catenary but this is not the point I was making at all.

 

 

 

The last time Hornby released a new electric loco was around 1995. This year alone Hornby released 5 new steam locomotives and Hornby International are releasing new electric (both EMUs and ACs) on an yearly basis.... and I am the one getting criticized here for wanting just a fraction of what everyone is getting? ... wow...

 

 

If we get rid of all steam locomotive except a few with old tooling and a single detailed one, remove quite a bit of the accompanying infrastructure and then this detail loco happens to hit the bargain box in some stores, do I get to tell steam fans how they want the entire program to themselves? No, because I actually want my fellow modelers to be happy despite I don't model what they do and would still prefer a fair distributions of items.

I don't think Hornby has a built in aversion to electric traction (and, by extension, the modern railway scene in general) but they may have decided that it just doesn't generate the sort of demand that exists for their steam outline models. 

 

The fact is that most steam locos sell out fairly quickly but many electric locos/units haven't done so and were cleared out with heavy discounting.

 

The people running Hornby aren't fools; if they thought models of electric prototypes would generate equal returns, they'd be made in equal numbers. If they aren't making any at all, it suggests that they can't think of one that would sell as well as any one of the five steam locos you mention.

 

Sorry, but it has nothing to do with fairness, just commercial judgment. Those who believe they are getting it wrong have to convince the makers, not us.

 

Like it or not, railway modelling IS nostalgia driven and the bias towards steam indicates that those with nostalgia for steam are currently the most lucrative market segment. Quite simply, there were a lot more train spotters in the 1950s and 60s than there were in the 1980s and 90s and many of the former are now retired with time on their hands and better pensions than many of the latter can look forward to. That's the cash that Hornby, Bachmann et al are after, while it lasts.

 

John

[ruggedpeak]

This does seem extremely unfair - a number of well known model railway emporia have had seriously discounted Bachmann Desiro's for quite a while, less than £100 for a four car unit. For all the froth electrics don't appear to sell well. To then turn that in to hyperbole about prejudice is just silly.

 

Perhaps one of the reasons is EMU's aren't terribly interesting and you can't do much with them modelling or play wise. I travel on them every day and have to look wistfully as a 90, DVT and Mk3's speed by, wishing I could get on a 'proper' train but they don't stop ay my station .

 

Few people appear to want to model EMU's, or at least buy them. If they don't sell then Hornby and co won't make them. If Bachmann produce their 90 then we shall see, but there remain 90's, 92's, 350's, 85's, and more all available, and whilst some are better than others, isn't that just the opportunity for real 'modelling' people want?