Coach bodging

[uax6]

When I last updated this thread life was full of promise, but then I looked at the body sides again....... they were twisted and warped again.

This lead to a fit of depression, which saw me go and do something else for a while (I'll update the other thread soon, so you can see what distracted me).

In the time 'away' I ordered some Lemonene and then did some playing to see what it was like. Overall it appeared to be better and less harsh than the plasticweld, and so some sides where required for testing.

 

Now I was getting a bit sick of the full 3rd, so I went through the part drawn sides that I had, and pulled out a set for a 46ft 8in HR full brake. This has only five windows per side, and so therefore lots of plastic to plastic to laminate and warp.

 

The sides were cut, and because I had no real hope for them I didn't take photos as I went along. I slightly altered the method of construction too, so that I could have less laminations.

 

The new sides consisted of (discounting the outer bottom half panels):

 

Full height panel outer layer (10thou)

Full height 'bolection' layer (10 thou)

Half height droplight layer (20thou)

Full height back/glazing layer (20thou)

 

The panels were laminated up as follows: The bolection layer was drilled with 0.45mm holes on the bottom edge (where they were to be glued to the outer panel and wouldn't be seen) and the they were laminated up to the outer panel. This was done using the lemonene. Not a complete flood, but just enough to wet the surface. They were then put between to sheets of glass (glass table mats) and weighted down with a Bardic (well it was heavy and to hand in the box!). They were left between the glass for 24hrs.

 

The same process was used for each layer.

 

Then I put on the bottom panelling, and to strips over the back of the glazing layer to hold the glass in place.

 

The result? A strong pair of sides that haven't warped (although one side was damaged when I knocked the bottle of lemonene over, thankfully I only split about a capful, but it got everywhere, and stank the box out for hours! The damage to the side is a small dent, that I have since filled.)

 

Shows both sides.

 

Close up of the panelling and the ducket from a Ratio LNWR coach sanded smooth to match the van in LMS days.

 

Not a great shot of the edge, but it shows how striaght it is, and you can just about make out the strips to hold the glazing in (the glazing gets dropped in from the top).

 

Both sides of the sides.

 

I also tried out my new bit of steam pipe for making roofs:

The sheet of plasticard wrapped around the pipe and covered with masking tape (I used 20thou)

 

The pipe in the oven of the rayburn at tick-over, left in for about 15mins

 

The end result, should get a couple of roofs out of this!

 

So things are picking up again here.

 

Andy G

 

 

 

[Colin parks]

When I last updated this thread life was full of promise, but then I looked at the body sides again....... they were twisted and warped again.

This lead to a fit of depression, which saw me go and do something else for a while (I'll update the other thread soon, so you can see what distracted me).

In the time 'away' I ordered some Lemonene and then did some playing to see what it was like. Overall it appeared to be better and less harsh than the plasticweld, and so some sides where required for testing.

 

Now I was getting a bit sick of the full 3rd, so I went through the part drawn sides that I had, and pulled out a set for a 46ft 8in HR full brake. This has only five windows per side, and so therefore lots of plastic to plastic to laminate and warp.

 

The sides were cut, and because I had no real hope for them I didn't take photos as I went along. I slightly altered the method of construction too, so that I could have less laminations.

 

The new sides consisted of (discounting the outer bottom half panels):

 

Full height panel outer layer (10thou)

Full height 'bolection' layer (10 thou)

Half height droplight layer (20thou)

Full height back/glazing layer (20thou)

 

The panels were laminated up as follows: The bolection layer was drilled with 0.45mm holes on the bottom edge (where they were to be glued to the outer panel and wouldn't be seen) and the they were laminated up to the outer panel. This was done using the lemonene. Not a complete flood, but just enough to wet the surface. They were then put between to sheets of glass (glass table mats) and weighted down with a Bardic (well it was heavy and to hand in the box!). They were left between the glass for 24hrs.

 

The same process was used for each layer.

 

Then I put on the bottom panelling, and to strips over the back of the glazing layer to hold the glass in place.

 

The result? A strong pair of sides that haven't warped (although one side was damaged when I knocked the bottle of lemonene over, thankfully I only split about a capful, but it got everywhere, and stank the box out for hours! The damage to the side is a small dent, that I have since filled.)

 

DSC06260.JPG

Shows both sides.

 

DSC06261.JPG

Close up of the panelling and the ducket from a Ratio LNWR coach sanded smooth to match the van in LMS days.

 

DSC06263.JPG

Not a great shot of the edge, but it shows how striaght it is, and you can just about make out the strips to hold the glazing in (the glazing gets dropped in from the top).

 

DSC06264.JPG

Both sides of the sides.

 

I also tried out my new bit of steam pipe for making roofs:

DSC06216.JPG

DSC06218.JPG

The sheet of plasticard wrapped around the pipe and covered with masking tape (I used 20thou)

 

DSC06220.JPG

The pipe in the oven of the rayburn at tick-over, left in for about 15mins

 

DSC06219.JPG

The end result, should get a couple of roofs out of this!

 

So things are picking up again here.

 

Andy G

Hi Andy,

 

I wondered where you had got to!

 

It looks like a real voyage of discovery that you have been on - including a spillage of solvent incident! At least now you have made one successful pair of sides you have a method which you can stick to and rely on. The sides are looking very good and nicely straight. The roof looks uniformly curved too. I would be tempted to make the roof from 40 thou. even if it meant feathering the edges to make the edges thinner, but if it works, then go for it!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[JCL]

That's great news mister. I know how disillusioning it can get when nothing seems to work, and although you have the cutter, there's still a lot of work that goes into preparation, etc! I'm really pleased the lemon juice is working for you, and I can't wait to see the sides to start to look a bit more 3D!

 

Personally, I'm hurtling headlong towards the brick wall that is the application of teak. I really want to, if not master it, produce something passable. But first, roof rolling.

 

Catch you on the flip side.

 

J

[richbrummitt]

 I'm hurtling headlong towards the brick wall that is the application of teak. I really want to, if not master it, produce something passable. 

 

Dave Woodward wrote this up in one of the magazines (probably RM or MRJ) many years ago. Sorry I don't have a issue/date/page reference but it might jog someone else's memory or provide some info for a search in an index.

[JCL]

Cheers Rich, no problem, I'm going to have a go at Mike Trice's method here on rmweb which is pretty detailed on his thread.

[PeterR]

Hi Andy,

 

Those sides for the full brake look good - congratulations - you mention 'Lemonene', where did you buy it from please?

 

Yours Peter.

[PeterR]

Dave Woodward wrote this up in one of the magazines (probably RM or MRJ) many years ago. Sorry I don't have a issue/date/page reference but it might jog someone else's memory or provide some info for a search in an index.

 

Hi, There is a topic on producing a teak finish at              http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=49560     that may help.

 

 

And another one is at   http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75178-reproducing-varnished-teak-improving-latest-Hornby-thompsons/ which is making the Hornby Coaches better.

 

Finally Martyn Welch has an article in MRJ 176 that is 9 pages + 2 long of a LNE coach & a GNR one (in black & white) leaving St Pancras on a LMS train

 

There is also a couple of photos of a LNER Pigeon Van done using Martin/s method (one prototype, 1 model) at       http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=757

 

 

 

Yours Peter.

Edited March 22, 2014 by PeterR

[MikeTrice]

you mention 'Lemonene', where did you buy it from please?

I got mine from ebay from this dealer: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Laboratory-solvents-d-limonene-dipentene-250ml-/161256571522?

 

Check their other items as they do various different quantities. I was very pleased with their speed of delivery.

[PeterR]

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for the reply - quite right re the price the first page shows 250 ml for £7.50: and then 1 litre for just over double - the same sort of thing applies top post charge as well.

 

Thanks again. Yours Peter.

Edited March 22, 2014 by PeterR

[MikeTrice]

Bear in mind 1 litre is a LARGE bottle which you will have to store and you will want to decant the solvent into something smaller to use. The 250ml is still considerably larger than the normal solvent bottles available in model shops.

[uax6]

I bought 90ml from hobby hoildays, but it worked out at £9 delivered. So the next purchase will be from above and then I can decant it out into the bottle.

 

I'll have another update soon, but the good news is that the sides are still dead striaght!

 

Andy g

[MikeTrice]

I'll have another update soon, but the good news is that the sides are still dead striaght!

Likewise I have not had any distortion with it.

[PeterR]

My 1/4 litre ( not the larger one - this is a trial), arrived yesterday - well packed being a plastic clear bottle just over 2.25 inches diameter with a height of 4".

 

The e-bay seller has their own website (www.magnacol.co.uk) and takes orders direct.

 

A quick check of the cement in use, shows that it works reasonably fast.

[uax6]

Opps, I've suddenly realised that it is almost a month since I posted anything on here! I have been busy with the full brake, but at the minute I'm finding it difficult to grab an hour to make a post showing all the progress in pictures! I will try to do it tonight or tommorrow for you.

 

Other news. I've had the first test etches back from Gary at 247 Developments, and I must say that the results are excellent. The commode handles are much better than the Caley coaches ones, the end steps have checkerplating on them and the fine handles on the lighting controls are really fine. The intention between both Gary and I is that this etch is going to be developed into a general detailing etch, and will be available from him soon. There are some little tweaks that we are doing for the next test etch (will will be sometime in early May.) to include v-hangers and some other little bits.

 

I've also been enjoying the new Highland Railway carriages and wagons book, but have found some inconsistancies in the drawings and details in the carriage section. This has made it a bit difficult deciding on what underframe equipment is fitted to each vehicle, as things like V-hangers are drawn as normal open ones, but the pictures show a narrow closed one. Also for some of the later corridor coaches the frames became all steel (which you can see in some of the photos as the headstock sticks out and is of rolled channel section) which is mentioned by Hunter but not by Tatlow. Sadly no drawings of the big Dukes saloon either! Still a very good buy and worth every penny!

 

Andy G

Edited April 20, 2014 by uax6

[uax6]

The next thing I did was to make up the bogies. For these I used the excellent HR 8' wheelbase fox bogies from 247 Developments. Each bogies comes as three sections:

 

They need a bit of care and filing to get to assemble well, but the effort is worth it. I used top-hat bearings and Hornby wheelsets.

The end result (shown sitting under the underframe of the all 3rd):

 

I then started to add detail to the ends. I needed to add RCH lighting jumper cables, so these were made up of bits of 10thou microstrip and some ratio MR gas lamp sprue:

Note the plugs in there sockets at the bottom of the body.

 

I used the sprue off the one at the lower right.

And this is the end result.

 

You'll also see that the end is marked up for steps and handrails. These will be from the etch, so for the minute I have marked and drilled a 0.45mm hole in the location places.

 

As the glazing slots in from the top, it was an ideal time to put the security bars on the inside of the van doors, this was done with 10 thou plastic rod:

Note that I have also put bottom hinges on the doors and drilled 0.45mm holes for door handles as well.

 

The body was then made up (the ends were filed to a point to allow the joins to be flush):

 

The roof was then put in place and held with two M4 bolts:

 

I then riveted up the solebars. This I did while they were still mounted in the big sheet, which made doing them easy, but sadly when I cut them out the edges weren't straight. Never mind the underframe was made up and secured to the underside of the van, and some filler used to fill the gaps:

The two bogies were added and held on with self tappers with a M4 nut as a spacer. This is not the way I usually do it, but it seems to work well, and gives the correct ride height:

 

Then I started on detailing the underframe. First the Queen posts. These are 2mm square plastic rod drilled to take a small romford handrail knob at one end. They are mounted so that only the round part of the knob shows behind the dropper on the solebar:

The knob was cemented in place by dripping solvent into the hole and pushing the knob in, making sure the hole in the knob faced to correct direction. 0.45mm handrail wire was bent to shape and threaded through the holes and superglued to the inside edge of the solebars:

 

Next came the underframe details. These are 247 Developments LNWR coach underframe parts. They are spot on for HR electric lit carriages. Being cast they also add a decent amount of weight to the coach too! The only mods were to file the vacuum cylinders down slightly so that they were the correct height. I haven't made the v-hangers up yet either. I also noted that I had forgotten to put the PVC turnbuckle sleeves on the truss rods as well! They were just slit and pushed over and secured with solvent:

 

The end result looks like this:

But there is a slight problem. Because of the fact that there is only one battery box (mounted on one side) there is a bit of a weight distribution issue:

 

To counter this I took my small scales to work to find out the weights. The results are:

battery box 8.8g

vac cylinders 1.8g each

Dynamo 0.8g

bogie frame 18.5g each

bogie complete 30.5g each

body 40.8g

 

This gives a tare weight of 115g for the van so far. The weight distribution needs 6.2g of lead to level things up. I tried it the complete coach (with lead in) on some manky flexi-track (which is lumpy bumpy) and the van ran nice and smoothly and was very free running.

 

Tomorrow I need to remember to take the drawing into work so that the v-hangers can be made up!

 

Andy G

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JCL]

I'll be you're chuffed to have got it to this stage after your problems with solvents. It really looks the business! Although I had a go at producing bogies with the Cameo cutter, I think you were right to be wary - I'll have a go at bought ones next time as it'll be less hassle and will hopefully allow me to get up and running more quickly. Or, there's always Shapeways, hmmm.

[Colin parks]

Hi Andy,

 

That coach is very fine indeed!

 

Perhaps one way of solving the balance/tilt issue without resorting to the exact weighing of parts would be this: Make one bearing surface of one of the bogie stretchers so that it cannot tilt sideways by adding strips of plasticard either parallel to the solebars side of the pivot bolt. On the other bogie add strips at right angles to the pivot bolt. It will give a degree of compensation to the coach chassis too. That is how people like Portchullin Tatty do it anyway!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[N15class]

This is some very nice work.

 

You have put your brake cylinders on the same side. I do not know this coach, but they are normally on opposite sides or is it as you have done on this prototype

[uax6]

The brake cylinders on HR stock are odd in that they are mounted on the same side, with the Westinghouse cylinder on the centre-line of the chassis and the gas/battery-box (es) on the other.

 

I'll try and upload some more photos tonight.

 

Andy G

[Portchullin Tatty]

Andy,

 

the coach is looking grand and is certainly catching the feel of the real things.  The cutter you have is really very effective at making progress on panelled coaches.

 

I am not sure that the tilting issue is totally to do with the weighting and if you get the weight balanced so it does not tilt, it will still bounce from side to side horribly as it goes along.  I think your issue is that the bogie mounting pivot has a lot too much slack in it.

 

I still think you need a reasonably balanced coach body but you also need to tighten the bogie pivot.  To make sure it still rotates you must have a flat rubbing plate on the body or bogie though.  You can do the dodge that Colin has mentioned which is probably more relevant to P4 modellers - it allows the bogie to rock back and forth a touch.

[uax6]

First of all I'm sorry I haven't been keeping this upto date as regularly as normal, domestics (and SWMBO hogging the computer for farmville) have been getting in the way. Also I'm suffering a bit from a dip in the mojo as well.

 

I continued with the underframe equipment, the next thing on the list were the V-hangers and rods from the brake cylinders. I'm not really sure I can call them V hangers, as yet again the HR rarely used the conventional open V-hangers that we are all familiar with, going for a narrower solid pattern. They were cut from 20thou, and with a bit of 0.45mm wire for the rod:

 

And attached to the underframe:

 

Then I needed a lighting regulator/fuse box. This ia mounted on an angle iron frame (which looks much too big for the equipment it carries). The frame was made from 1mm plastic angle, with the box shaped from  four bits of 2mm square plastic glued together with the top edge rounded off:

 

And seen under the solebar:

 

I then fitted the stepboard, which didn't really go to plan, as the solebar edge is not very straight, its very wiggley at the right hand end here:

 

But this side is much better, and also shows the regulator in position better:

 

The bogie pivots were then sorted out. I cut some circles in 20thou sheet (15mm diameter), and laminated enough together to replace the nut. The result is much better, although I forgot to take my camera with me!

 

As I'm now waiting on my etches to be made, I turned my attention to the other sides I had started to make, the ones for the 7 compartment lavatory 3rd. Again I have replaced the inner laminated sheets with a single sheet of 20 thou, and the result is good, no warping! I've also stuck two thin strips above and below the windows to allow the glazing to be held in place. The bare sides are seen here:

 

So the first part of detailing these sides is to add the lower panelling. Again this is cut from 10thou with the portriat:

 

Although it is in a kind of fret, this time I decided to apply each section individually, and surprisingly I found it easier this way, and the result is better overall! Here's some shots part way through:

 

And the pair of sides with the panelling finished:

 

And the time taken to fit these? About an hour a side, with interuptions from the full sized trains, so not bad at all.

 

I now need to work out a method of scribing plank lines on inside the odd panel to replicate one vehicle that was running in LMS days, drill all the holes for the door handles (I can't do the grab handles until the etches arrive sadly), fit the door vents and bottom door hinges. I've also got to cut out some ends and put the panelling on them too. The underframe is recovered from the last attempt, so at least I don't have to do all the rivetting again.

 

Andy G

Edited May 18, 2014 by uax6

[uax6]

Oh, also I have just won something really quite nice, and which will help me model something that is fairly unique. Can you tell what this is?

 

I can't wait for it to turn up in the post!

 

Andy G

 

[JCL]

Am I allowed to guess? ;-)

[uax6]

Now I don't think that's fair is it? Put your hand down and let the others join in.......

 

Andy G ;-)

[Londontram]

Just a guess but a while back you were asking if any one had plans for the Duke of Sutherlands coaches. Regards Steve