The Correct Shade of Grey

[Clem]

Am I alone in thinking that although of there are many shades of grey paint on the market (and some claiming to be matches), they all seem to give an incorrect looking result when applied to mineral wagons (and unfitted vans and brakes for that matter)? The paint makers and major model manufacturers seem to want to match what they say is the exact colour, not taking into account that for a small model, the area viewed is small, reflects less light and fools the eye into believing it is much darker. I have tried comparing some of my feeble attempts with a reasonably large selection of archive colour photos and the closest so far in terms of shade is Humbrol 146 which (ha ha) is no longer available. In any case it has a draw-back - It is gloss and doesn't weather very well.

 

I then came across pictures of Canada Road by Peter Johnson - An EM layout par excellence. he seems to have very skillfully got the shade right. His weathering is also something to behold. Trouble is I don't know how to get hold of him to ask him the simple question - "What is your source for BR unfitted wagon grey paint?"

 

I'd be grateful for any input from others who share my scepticism of available grey paints and particularly if anyone feels they have a solution or anyone who knows how I can contact Peter if he is open to questions.

 

Many Thanks

 

Clem

 

 

[TheQ]

The problem is there is no " definitive" colour for paint once it starts ageing, until modern synthetic paints took over grey paint was notorious for changing colour as it aged and even showing a very different shade whether it was dry or wet.

The Q

[Trog]

Also in the steam age the recipe for grey paint included ingredients such as the dregs of any colour of paint left in the cans used the day before. So even new wagons would vary in shade from day to day. Or instead of using their own mix the railway company might use Navy surplus Battleship Grey, if some was going cheap or a mix of both.

[69843]

I'd say there's at least 50 shades....

[Rumblestripe]

Have you looked at the Games Workshop range? They have a larger than ever range of oddly named colours. A quick glance turned up "Administratum Grey" as a possible contender?

.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/paintChart.jsp?catId=cat820002a

 

The staff are usually quite helpful, there are several bluey greys and some browny ones to consider. I wouldn't get too precious about it because the real thing could look almost white to nearly black with all shades of filth between!

[Clem]

Hi

thanks, i appreciate your replies:

 

 

The problem is there is no " definitive" colour for paint once it starts ageing, until modern synthetic paints took over grey paint was notorious for changing colour as it aged and even showing a very different shade whether it was dry or wet.

The Q

 

 

Also in the steam age the recipe for grey paint included ingredients such as the dregs of any colour of paint left in the cans used the day before. So even new wagons would vary in shade from day to day. Or instead of using their own mix the railway company might use Navy surplus Battleship Grey, if some was going cheap or a mix of both.

 

 yes - I agree with both of you - there is truth in what you say. The greys did vary - and I know this whole viewing of colour is subjective,  but my eyes tell me that for all the colour photos I have of grey unfitted wagons/vans,  they all depict a lighter in shade than what we seem to have available . And I have mentioned Peter Johnson's Canada Road. His wagons look right to my eye. I'm afraid that I'm the kind of person that if something doesn't seem quite right, it niggles at me and this is one of those times. I can fully understand that some people may think I too fussy but we all model in our own way.

 

 

 

 

Have you looked at the Games Workshop range? They have a larger than ever range of oddly named colours. A quick glance turned up "Administratum Grey" as a possible contender?

.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/paintChart.jsp?catId=cat820002a

 

The staff are usually quite helpful, there are several bluey greys and some browny ones to consider. I wouldn't get too precious about it because the real thing could look almost white to nearly black with all shades of filth between!

 

Games Workshop range? No - I didn't know these existed. I shall pursue this lead - thankyou. As I explained above - I just want things to look right to my eye. I model the 1950s period when the weathering and rust on mineral wagons wasn't quite as severe as later,  say the 1970s. Even where they were relatively heavily weathered, the grey unaffected patches tended to be of a light shade. 

 

Thanks

 

Clem

[Clem]

Just a picture or two to illustrate what I mean...

 

The first shows shows a shot of 3 of my mineral wagons, the middle one being an untreated Bachmann in its original shade of grey and the two outside ones being my resprayed attempts using Humbrol 146. (Gloss Aircraft Grey I think it was called) on the left and a mixture of paints on the right -  and the second is an archive shot of mineral wagons at Kings X. 

 

I realise that mine attempts are still short of what I want - also they do require at least some weathering but I think you can clearly see that the Bachmann shade of grey is too dark compared with all of the wagons in the archive photo.

 

I know that for many, you'll be saying, 'What on earth is he going on about!?' but I know there are a few at least who will get it. Anyway, I've sent off for some Games Workshop paint. Just hope it doesn't turn me into a computer games freak!

 

[RedgateModels]

Great photo, I particularly like the old PO wagon providing for a little prototype variation on our layouts

 

I just use grey primer, varnished over once transfers are applied with PP satin, although my Bachmann 16 tonners on Summat Colliery were left stock, then heavily weathered by Roomey, so you can't really tell what colour they were originally anyway

[Clem]

Great photo, I particularly like the old PO wagon providing for a little prototype variation on our layouts

 

I just use grey primer, varnished over once transfers are applied with PP satin, although my Bachmann 16 tonners on Summat Colliery were left stock, then heavily weathered by Roomey, so you can't really tell what colour they were originally anyway

 

Yeah - there's a lot of good detail in this shot taken I think in the mid or late 50s. Apart from anything else the sheer amount of coal on the left hand side ready for the coaling plant. - Must admit, I'd not considered it but I'll take a look at grey primer - are we talking Halfords?

[RedgateModels]

I just use Hycote, or whatever the car parts shop has at the time

[Clem]

I just use Hycote, or whatever the car parts shop has at the time

 

Okidoke - Thanks - 

 

 I'll investigate that too.

 

BTW I looked at your Summat blog - do you have pictures?

[RedgateModels]

Here's a couple,

 

first off Bachmann wagons, weathered

 

 

then an O gauge kit built wagon, grey primer

 

 

Maybe too light, but again, once weathered who can say?

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello Clem,

 

Interesting topic. I'm not familiar with the era you're modelling, however speaking generally have you considered the effects of scale?

 

If two objects are painted exactly the same shade, but one is much larger than the other, then the larger will "appear" lighter as it reflects more light.

 

This is perhaps even more noticeable in N, my preferred scale, so I always lighten models with a dusting of white or pale grey (or I mix a lighter shade of the original colour if spraying from scratch) to compensate, and I find it's fairly effective.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[Clem]

Excellent modelling! Are the Bachmann wagons in their original grey? Are they simply weathered or have you resprayed them first?  I certainly don't think the O gauge is too light but I agree with you that a bit of weathering would make it come to life. I think the weathering you have done on the Bachmanns is spot on but might be a bit excessive for 1955, the period I model. Mineral wagons were only just coming in in big numbers and many coal trains were still made up solely of wooden wagons (which in some ways are a bit easier to model as they were all quite different depending on their origin.

[Clem]

Hello Clem,

 

Interesting topic. I'm not familiar with the era you're modelling, however speaking generally have you considered the effects of scale?

 

If two objects are painted exactly the same shade, but one is much larger than the other, then the larger will "appear" lighter as it reflects more light.

 

This is perhaps even more noticeable in N, my preferred scale, so I always lighten models with a dusting of white or pale grey (or I mix a lighter shade of the original colour if spraying from scratch) to compensate, and I find it's fairly effective.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Hi Ben, yes - that is exactly what I'm talking about. I think it is possible though,  to match by eye against a colour photo, although the film used for the archive photos sometimes gives a slant on the hue. I would guarantee that if the paint used to paint the wagon in the 1950s was available and used, it would be far too dark on a 4mm model never mind 2mm!  But then I always think if it looks right then go with it. And it's obvious that you have done that. I am considering mixing up from several greys but so far haven't quite found the shade I'm looking for.

[PhilH]

No help with the paint but to my eye there's a definite blue cast in your prototype photo which might give a false representation of the grey on the wagons.

[Clem]

No help with the paint but to my eye there's a definite blue cast in your prototype photo which might give a false representation of the grey on the wagons.

That's true but I do my comparisons with a large selection of photos - that one is just and example for the post. I think the blue or green content in grey can be very subtle and I've certainly rejected a few mixing experiments because the paint has been too bluey.

[boeing757]

Great photo, I particularly like the old PO wagon providing for a little prototype variation on our layouts

 

I just use grey primer, varnished over once transfers are applied with PP satin, although my Bachmann 16 tonners on Summat Colliery were left stock, then heavily weathered by Roomey, so you can't really tell what colour they were originally anyway

Hi Clem,

 

I also have thought for a long time that the shade of grey labeled as freight grey is too dark. I'm sure it is a factor of scale, the smaller the item, the darker it looks.

Can I just ask a question here of the wider audience, can anyone identify the ex PO wagon in the picture? I would like a similar wagon amongst my 16 tonners.

 

Merry Chrismas to everyone,

 

Bob

[Clem]

Hi Clem,

 

I also have thought for a long time that the shade of grey labeled as freight grey is too dark. I'm sure it is a factor of scale, the smaller the item, the darker it looks.

Can I just ask a question here of the wider audience, can anyone identify the ex PO wagon in the picture? I would like a similar wagon amongst my 16 tonners.

 

Merry Chrismas to everyone,

 

Bob

It looks like a 'Charrington' which I belive were common in large numbers on the ECML coal trains before PO wagons were phased out or painted out. It certainly looks like the right livery but one of early letters looks like it has rounded part at the top so I'm not 100% sure. It's an interesting survivor as by the mid 1950s it was quite rare to see them still in their ownership livery. In my memory of wooden wagons, they consisted of a hotch potch of repaired planks and weathered wood interlaced with some painted planks which seemed to be either grey or black. i don't remember any liveried examples surviving to the late 50s. But here's proof that some did! I was brought up with strong connections in the East Midlands mining areas and the wooden wagons all seemed to be cascaded into the NCB for internal use. I can remember lines of them at Babbington Colliery in, if I remember correct. a dark blue livery with NCB on the side. By this time the coal trains were pretty well 99% steel mineral with occasionally, oddly enough,  a single wooden wagon at the front of the train. I'm modelling the circa 1955 so I'm having a 50-50 mix of wooden and steel 16 tonners in my trains.

I'd like to second that Merry Christmas sentiment. May Santa bring you your most desired wish!

 

Clem

[Clem]

No it's not a Charringtons as they had the 'S' on the end 'CHARRINGTONS' - 

 

Clem

[45568]

Snibston??

See the Bachmann version, 37-113, on Hattons website.

Cheers,

Peter C.

[boeing757]

Snibston??

See the Bachmann version, 37-113, on Hattons website.

Cheers,

Peter C.

Hi Peter,

Don't think so, the Bachmann wagon is side door only whereas the photo shows side door and end door. Under magnification it looks like the first or second letter may be an S  or an O. Trawling through 902 liveries on the Powsides site only brought up STANTON as a possibility, and of course Snibston would fit. Anyone have any other suggestions?

ATB

Bob

[petethemole]

I first found MONCKTON but it doesn't really look right for that. Robbies Rolling Stock do HICKLETON which appears to fit: http://www.robbiesrollingstock.co.uk/images/Lancs_Yorks/Hickleton.gif

Pete

 

 

 

[Barry O]

Remember that BR used more than one shade of grey - a light one and a darker one... and I like the photo - but beware some of the colour prints aren't quite what they seem.

 

I will try out Halfords primer as the current varieties of BR Grey seem to vary from bottle to bottle and tin to tin.. as shown here

 

 

 but once weathered it still shows a  difference..

 

 

Barry O

[Icknieldrobin]

Am I alone in thinking that although of there are many shades of grey paint on the market (and some claiming to be matches), they all seem to give an incorrect looking result when applied to mineral wagons (and unfitted vans and brakes for that matter)? The paint makers and major model manufacturers seem to want to match what they say is the exact colour, not taking into account that for a small model, the area viewed is small, reflects less light and fools the eye into believing it is much darker. I have tried comparing some of my feeble attempts with a reasonably large selection of archive colour photos and the closest so far in terms of shade is Humbrol 146 which (ha ha) is no longer available. In any case it has a draw-back - It is gloss and doesn't weather very well.

 

I then came across pictures of Canada Road by Peter Johnson - An EM layout par excellence. he seems to have very skillfully got the shade right. His weathering is also something to behold. Trouble is I don't know how to get hold of him to ask him the simple question - "What is your source for BR unfitted wagon grey paint?"

 

I'd be grateful for any input from others who share my scepticism of available grey paints and particularly if anyone feels they have a solution or anyone who knows how I can contact Peter if he is open to questions.

 

Many Thanks

 

Clem

Clem

I don't think anyone has responded to your message request to contact Pete Johnson. Canada Street appears on Kier Hardy's site  http://emgauge70s.co.uk/modelpageindex.html. Might be worth trying to contact him through that source.

 

HTH

 

Doug