The Furness Valley Railroad

[chaz]

OH DEAR! (again)

 

Into every life a little rain…

 

Having set up the first four turnouts, with their crossing polarity controlled by the relay boards I decided to have a play give them a thorough test. A hidden flaw came to light when I mistakenly ran into a turnout which was set against the loco. Of course a short circuit was caused and the Roco DCC immediately shut down as it should. However after this had happened the relay involved no longer worked properly. This baffled me for a while until I realised what had happened. As the short circuit protection shut the system down it would also have shut down the MERG accessory decoder causing the relay to drop out. Its contacts must have started to open while the short circuit current (which would be high) was still flowing through them causing arcing and maybe even fusing the contacts. OOPS.

 

Another flaw is that the loco can’t be driven clear, nor can the turnout be thrown, with the DCC off. The loco must be pushed or pulled off the crossing (frog) first so that the DCC power can be restored.

 

Possible solutions?

 

Just don’t run into the heel of a turnout with it set for the wrong route. Every now and then this is going to happen. We all do it.

 

Frog juicers would solve the short circuit problem but they would not prevent a derailment at the blades. The short circuit is better.

 

Reverting to the internal switches in the Tortoises would also eliminate the need for relays but I would consider this a backward step, given my experience with them.

 

My preferred solution is to abandon the DCC control of the turnouts - throwing them instead with DPDT switches wired as polarity changers (DPCO). It will then be possible to throw the turnout even if the DCC has shut down. 

 

To make a virtue of necessity I will just add that a repeated failure (on my part) to switch the Multimaus handsets back from turnout control to loco driving mode is a continuing annoyance. Using toggle switches to control turnouts will eliminate this confusion.

 

Chaz

Edited December 24, 2017 by chaz

[AJon30]

Personally I think the separation of point control from the DCC handset is the way to go. I'm never very impressed when I see layouts being operated with everything through a DCC handset or Iphone etc. There seems to be a considerable amount of button pushing for a simple exercise like changing a point (switch).

 

The Frog juicers problem was one I I had thought about as potentially causing more problems than it solved.

 

I think the maxim KISS comes in here.

 

Happy Christmas Chaz

 

Rgds Andrew

[AJon30]

PS Of course that then begs the question, are you going to have a central control panel, or individual switches by the points? Both have there good and bad points.

 

Rgds Andrew

[chaz]

Personally I think the separation of point control from the DCC handset is the way to go. I'm never very impressed when I see layouts being operated with everything through a DCC handset or Iphone etc. There seems to be a considerable amount of button pushing for a simple exercise like changing a point (switch).

 

The Frog juicers problem was one I I had thought about as potentially causing more problems than it solved.

 

I think the maxim KISS comes in here.

 

Happy Christmas Chaz

 

Rgds Andrew

 

 

Reluctantly I am forced to admit that you have it spot on, Andrew. I had thought it would be very an elegant solution to control everything from the handsets, avoiding the need for control panels. I already had a batch of accessory decoders so all it was going to take was the wiring. However you are quite right. There is "a considerable amount of button pushing for a simple exercise like changing a point (switch)." I have found out the hard way, and very annoying it is! I will just add that the turnouts on my Dock Green layout are thrown with switches on two small panels - one on each of the two boards that have turnouts on them - and this arrangement works very well (and the relays do not drop out with a shut-down leading to contact damage).

 

I have found a piece of sheet acrylic (an offcut left over from the river under the girder bridge) which will suffice for switch panels. I think I will put small ones on the edge of the layout close to each group of turnouts and position the switches so that they are grouped in much the same relative positions as the turnouts. I want to avoid the need for diagrams if possible - although I will probably include turnout numbers. I am thinking about how I might angle the panels so that they can be seen from above.

 

I also agree with you about frog juicers. They are only half a solution - to make them a complete answer I think they should switch the turnout blades if the route is wrong - not just deal with the frog polarity. A consequent derailment is worse than a short circuit, which is easily cleared. As you will have read I do have one sorting out the polarity of the track on the turntable and it performs this task faultlessly - you wouldn't know it is there.

 

Chaz

Edited December 24, 2017 by chaz

[chaz]

PS Of course that then begs the question, are you going to have a central control panel, or individual switches by the points? Both have there good and bad points.

 

Rgds Andrew

 

AH! Our posts crossed. I am opting for groups of switches on small panels near groups of turnouts. If I am switching cars I will need to be close by to deal with uncoupling, which will be done by HoG and helping coupling on curves; so having the switches near is a must. This seems to me to be more in the spirit of a narrow gauge line - no interlocking towers with central control, just a switch stand adjacent to each turnout.

 

Chaz

[AJon30]

Just thinking off the top of my head, seeing as you have a quantity of relays, would it not be possible to have both options - a local point switch and also a control panel. using momentary switches? As I said I have both types and the downside of a single control panel is you have to keep going back to it when you are involved in switching, yet you have to walk round the room setting switches if you wish to run a train a distance?

 

Rgds Andrew

 

PS you have probably answered that with small groups of switch controls

Edited December 24, 2017 by AJon30

[Softvark]

Another option would be to use a DCC circuit breaker (or a booster) - simply put it between the DCC output from your command station and the track. Make sure that the accessory decoders are fed from before the circuit breaker. Then when a short occurs the circuit breaker trips before your command station and you can still use your accessory decoders. 

 

These are the breakers that I use and they work well -

 

http://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-101162/psx-1-intelligent-circuit-breaker-1-power-di

http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/dcc-accessories/circuit-protection-and-power-management/power-shield-psx-1.aspx

 

I think there are others available.

[chaz]

Another option would be to use a DCC circuit breaker (or a booster) - simply put it between the DCC output from your command station and the track. Make sure that the accessory decoders are fed from before the circuit breaker. Then when a short occurs the circuit breaker trips before your command station and you can still use your accessory decoders. 

 

These are the breakers that I use and they work well -

 

http://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-101162/psx-1-intelligent-circuit-breaker-1-power-di

http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/dcc-accessories/circuit-protection-and-power-management/power-shield-psx-1.aspx

 

I think there are others available.

 

 

Thanks for that useful suggestion. I was aware of circuit breakers and boosters but had not thought of using one to solve my problem. Following your links and looking at the spec's they do look like a simple way to go....but....I am persuaded by Andrew's point about the number of button presses required on the handset. I had not really got fixed in my mind why I was getting frustrated when operating but this argument has certainly clarified my feelings. So, despite having to unpick some of the work I have already done I think I am going to install DPCO switches and let the handsets revert to being throttles and nothing else.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Just thinking off the top of my head, seeing as you have a quantity of relays, would it not be possible to have both options - a local point switch and also a control panel. using momentary switches? As I said I have both types and the downside of a single control panel is you have to keep going back to it when you are involved in switching, yet you have to walk round the room setting switches if you wish to run a train a distance?

 

Rgds Andrew

 

PS you have probably answered that with small groups of switch controls

 

The next point to be settled is what form the switch panels should take. I have some clear acrylic sheet which will front the panels and thin card or paper can carry any labelling I decide on. Fixed vertically on the front of the layout might not be ideal for sighting, angled at 45 would be better, sticking out horizontally is probably easiest to contrive but might be vulnerable - my operating space is not that generous.  I might need to find some lightweight brackets that can be bent away from the usual 90 to support the panels at 45. I have a couple of brackets on Dock Green that support a small shelf for the sequence cards - this is set at about 45 and was made from two strips of thickish brass trip which I bent in a bench vice.

 

I will make a model or two to assess the the options. The frame at the front of the baseboards is made up of two strips of plywood spaced apart at intervals by pine blocks. It might be feasible to cut away part of the outer ply' strip to allow the panels to be recessed. I don't think there will need to be more than four switches required in any group so there will probably be ample space between pine spacers for what I have in mind.

 

Chaz

[AJon30]

I used perspex as well but mounted the diagram on the back, which stops it getting stained etc. I worked out the position of switches, lights 

and wiring, by printing a copy out, then looking at the size of switches etc I moved the holes around until everything fitted neatly, then used a sacrificial copy of the print-out to get the correct positions for the holes. Then attached the paper copy and it was a simple matter the cut out the holes through the paper to mount the switches etc.

 

 

Obviously this one is much more complex than I think you are looking at.

 

Rgds Andrew

Edited December 24, 2017 by AJon30

[chaz]

I used perspex as well but mounted the diagram on the back, which stops it getting stained etc. I worked out the position of switches, lights 

and wiring, by printing a copy out, then looking at the size of switches etc I moved the holes around until everything fitted neatly, then used a sacrificial copy of the print-out to get the correct positions for the holes. Then attached the paper copy and it was a simple matter the cut out the holes through the paper to mount the switches etc.

 

Kimbolton new control panel.jpg

 

Obviously this one is much more complex than I think you are looking at.

 

Rgds Andrew

 

 

Much more complex? Just a bit Andrew!  That's a nice panel but for DC rather than DCC? (You seem to have section switches on it?) No mine will be very simple - for instance the panel for the east end of Stoke's Ferry will only need two switches for the two turnouts and they will hardly need any labelling - it should be easy to understand them simply by their position. 

 

Chaz

[AJon30]

Yes that's a DC board for servo's with all the gongs & whistles. a DCC board would be much simpler for the same track layout.

 

On Questa we fitted (as it uses Peco points and solenoids) matching pairs of push-buttons on the front and back so that it can be operated from the rear when at shows and from the front when its up in the club room. As all the switches are on the 2 centre boards its not a great distance to move to operate.

 

 

Each switch is labelled F = Front & B = Back as that is the easiest way to determine routing.

 

Rgds Andrew

Edited December 25, 2017 by AJon30

[chaz]

Of course it's a simple job to use two switches on two different panels to operate solenoid type point motors but not quite so straightforward with polarity change overs which Tortoises need. Taking the leads to the motor via two DPCO switches on two different panels will work BUT every time one DPCO is thrown the sense of the other is flipped - the route that was selected with the switch up is changed to switch down - confusing? On balance I would prefer just one DPCO switch, part of a small group. Should be fine as I am anticipating that operating the layout will usually be done by following the train as it runs around the room (narrow gauge speeds will pertain).

 

Chaz

[AJon30]

Morning. Yes I had realized the problem with Tortoise switching in that you would have a miss-match between the 2 control panel (local & central), which is why I suggested a relay to actually switch the supply to the point motor, with the relay operated by push buttons in the control panels (one for each route) If the push button in the central panel was pushed and the point was already set that way there would be no effect? Of course, unless you had some form or light system there would be no indication of route setting that you would get with a normal switch. All of which would potentially add some complexity on the wiring side, for perhaps little actual benefit.

 

The above is based on my knowledge of relays, so maybe a load of nonsense!

 

Rgds Andrew

[chaz]

Relays can certainly be useful in to latch on - which would be necessary when operating Tortoises from push buttons - although some neat footwork might be needed to make the latch drop out. I'm not looking for such complexities though, I don't see the need for more than one DPCO switch for each Tortoise. At the moment I am thinking that the switches will be set in the baseboard front edge - if they are in line with the tie-bars it may well be that no panel or labelling will be necessary, their function will be obvious. 

 

Chaz

[Donw]

Bit of a sham that Chaz. Of course if you had put traps in everything would get derailed before  going against a point set for the main. I would expect 0 gauge stock to push the blades open enough to pass through  perhps the 0n30 stock i too light ( or the tortoise operating arm too stiff)  of course that would stop it running into the wrong path you would need traps for that. Mind you with the Keep alives I suppose even a trap wouldn't stop it.

On my Lens system I can set the controller so the knob and the forward reverse buttons are still controlling the loco will the others are operating the turnouts. However you are still having to jump up and down the group of turnouts.

I find it makes more sense to have separate turnouts controls. The DCC relates to the engineer (for a US line)  the turnouts wil be operated by one of the other crew members where there is no central tower so I think your local switches makes sense. If you always return the switches to normal when you finish shunting and that means they are set for the main not the sidings it means you can run something as soon as you enter the layout not have to run round resetting them from last time. I find if they are up for normal and that throws the switch the right way you can get into the habit of restoring them.

 

Don

[chaz]

Bit of a sham that Chaz. Of course if you had put traps in everything would get derailed before  going against a point set for the main. I would expect 0 gauge stock to push the blades open enough to pass through  perhps the 0n30 stock i too light ( or the tortoise operating arm too stiff)  of course that would stop it running into the wrong path you would need traps for that. Mind you with the Keep alives I suppose even a trap wouldn't stop it.

On my Lens system I can set the controller so the knob and the forward reverse buttons are still controlling the loco will the others are operating the turnouts. However you are still having to jump up and down the group of turnouts.

I find it makes more sense to have separate turnouts controls. The DCC relates to the engineer (for a US line)  the turnouts wil be operated by one of the other crew members where there is no central tower so I think your local switches makes sense. If you always return the switches to normal when you finish shunting and that means they are set for the main not the sidings it means you can run something as soon as you enter the layout not have to run round resetting them from last time. I find if they are up for normal and that throws the switch the right way you can get into the habit of restoring them.

 

Don

 

 

UP for normal? - not on the FVRR. Up will be for the route which goes away from the operator, down for the route that is closer. That "feels right" to me. Of course it is a matter of personal preference and should I change my mind I only have to loosen the nut and rotate the switch through 180.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the US narrow gauge lines were entirely innocent of traps. No signals (apart from the flag tops on switch stands), no remote control of switches, so traps would make little sense.

 

I also believe that all switches would be left in the normal (main line) position and would be changed by the train crew if a siding is to be taken. Wouldn't switches be restored to normal by the conductor of a freight, riding in the caboose? If so this will require a train to pause on departing to allow the "invisible guy" to do this.

 

As the switches will all have switch stands I will be wiring any crossovers as two separate switches, not as a linked pair. This will mean that operation will be more sedate as befits N.G..

 

Chaz

Edited December 27, 2017 by chaz

[Donw]

UP for normal? - not on the FVRR. Up will be for the route which goes away from the operator, down for the route that is closer. That "feels right" to me. Of course it is a matter of personal preference and should I change my mind I only have to loosen the nut and rotate the switch through 180.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the US narrow gauge lines were entirely innocent of traps. No signals (apart from the flag tops on switch stands), no remote control of switches, so traps would make little sense.

 

I also believe that all switches would be left in the normal (main line) position and would be changed by the train crew if a siding is to be taken. Wouldn't switches be restored to normal by the conductor of a freight, riding in the caboose? If so this will require a train to pause on departing to allow the "invisible guy" to do this.

 

As the switches will all have switch stands I will be wiring any crossovers as two separate switches, not as a linked pair. This will mean that operation will be more sedate as befits N.G..

 

Chaz

 

Some US modellers take real notice of this and will pause or slow the train as the caboose clears the last turnout  to allow the brakeman who usually gets assigned the tak by the conductor to climb aboard before accelerating away. It can make a lot of difference operating that way. The Up for normal makes a lot of sense if the switches are arranged in a row rather like a lever frame. However that's a British sort of thing and may not apply to US NG railways. A quick google suggest these are called derail in the US perhaps they are not mandatory over there.

 

Don

[chaz]

Some US modellers take real notice of this and will pause or slow the train as the caboose clears the last turnout  to allow the brakeman who usually gets assigned the tak by the conductor to climb aboard before accelerating away. It can make a lot of difference operating that way....

 

Don

 

 

I must admit that appeals to me. I am considering drawing up some operating protocols so that when we have a proper operating session everybody does it right, with correct use of whistles and bells, and authentic consists as much as my stockist will allow.

 

Is there a book or magazine article (or series) that would guide me? Something along the lines of the series Frank Dyer wrote which appeared in early editions of MRJ (which, of course, applied to British practice).

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Boring job, boring snap...

 

 

The first two toggle switches are in and wired. It’s all been tested and the relays are sorting out the crossing polarity as intended.

 

I can’t see any need for a panel here - the toggles are in line with the tie-bars of the turnouts (although they don’t look it in the photo) . The toggles are down for the closer route, up for the route towards the back. The yellow spots show the normal position to which the turnouts should be returned after any movement is complete. I will trial the toggle switches when operations start and decide if this arrangement is to be permanent. 

 

The space between the front baseboard edge and the tracks will have some of the buildings of the town of Dixon - trains will be glimpsed in the gaps between as they pass behind. That could take a while to be realised...

 

Chaz

[AJon30]

How tight is the clearance to get past them? You would not want to knock them as I have never been impressed with the robustness of these micro switches which is why I went for more "man sized" switches. You could mount them on the top surface, hidden in a building (depending on your building plans?)

 

Rgds Andrew 

[chaz]

How tight is the clearance to get past them? You would not want to knock them as I have never been impressed with the robustness of these micro switches which is why I went for more "man sized" switches. You could mount them on the top surface, hidden in a building (depending on your building plans?)

 

Rgds Andrew 

 

 

No question of getting passed them Andrew, this baseboard edge is the end of the operating well, so you walk up to them, not passed. However I take your point about the light weight of these switches. By cutting away the front skin of the plywood sandwich frame I can effectively recess other, more exposed switches so that they are not vulnerable (as I did on Dock Green - and these switches have survived 16 shows or more without problems).

 

Chaz

Edited December 29, 2017 by chaz

[Donw]

I must admit that appeals to me. I am considering drawing up some operating protocols so that when we have a proper operating session everybody does it right, with correct use of whistles and bells, and authentic consists as much as my stockist will allow.

 

Is there a book or magazine article (or series) that would guide me? Something along the lines of the series Frank Dyer wrote which appeared in early editions of MRJ (which, of course, applied to British practice).

 

Chaz

 

A one time there used to be a one page bit on operation in each issue of Model RAILROADER  ( I no longer recieve it) I have a book on operating Model Railroads which had a lot of info including how they handled such things as a double sawby. I cannot remeber who wrote it offhand. 

Don

[chaz]

A one time there used to be a one page bit on operation in each issue of Model RAILROADER  ( I no longer recieve it) I have a book on operating Model Railroads which had a lot of info including how they handled such things as a double sawby. I cannot remeber who wrote it offhand. 

Don

 

 

OK Don. I suppose an internet search is needed. Operating principles in the US were very different to those that applied in the UK.

[chaz]

More boring stuff.....Mindful of Andrew's warning on vulnerable switches I spent some time today with a hole-saw.

 

 

The design of the baseboard frame members - two strips of plywood spaced apart at intervals with pine blocks - make it easy to inset the switches. Note the piece of pine, packed with card so that it's a tight fit. It will stop the hole-saw from tearing the back of the plywood.

 

First step is to drill a pilot hole diam. 6.5mm. The hole in the internal ply' layer will later serve for the switch.

 

 

Next a 50mm diam. hole is cut with the hole-saw in the front layer of plywood. Best advice I can give here is to keep the speed of the saw moderate. Too high a speed can get the wood smoking and the heat will not improve the longevity of the saw teeth.

 

 

DPCO toggle switch mounted inside the recess. Minimal cleaning up of the cut with abrasive paper needed.

 

 

While I had the tools out I thought it a good idea to make the all the recesses along the front of the Dixon baseboards.

 

Chaz

Edited December 30, 2017 by chaz