flexible_coupling Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Hi everyone, I got given a 'Diagram 1/109' rivetted 16t mineral wagon kit from MMP as a christmas present (has been on special), which arrived earlier today - missed Christmas but it'll still provide a lot of fun for the upcoming days! Now - I have a modest amount of prior experience with soldering etched brass kits... but I'll be first to admit humbly that it's been a while! As most people (and the website) clearly recommends - these aren't really intended for people to dive into as absolute beginners. But not having worked in the medium for a few years (but still possessing the memories of the skills), I was able to pick up and work with the first few steps in the underframe construction quite easily, with only minor 'mess' in the first few joints that won't be seen anyhow. It's a serious kit, with probably 500 parts as a generous guess, but I fancy that someone with patience and having put together a Connoisseur beginner kit cleanly and successfully would be able to accomplish this kit...... over the course of a good number of sessions! My aim is to document this as I go - from the perspective of a non-professional modeller that has the basic grounding in the techniques. There seems to be a surprising lack of progress build photos online for this family of kits... this looks to end up being a stunning kit, and I fancy, deserves exposure and to have a few more people taking a punt... The packed kit, with the pewter castings, brass bits and phosphor bronze etched WORKING LEAF SPRING etch (!!) to the side. All that's missing is wheels and bearings; I have an incorrect 8-spoke set here that I will temporarily steal from the other wagon I have here, a nearly-complete Slaters/Coopercraft one-plank, for the purposes of assembly. One progress photo to leave this thread with for the evening. I'll get some natural light when it returns and try and get some better shots around at this point. We're about 9 etched parts in so far. The neatness and precision of fit is sensational - I'd highly recommend proper bending bars for this stage (I shall buy some before I purchase my next kit of theirs - one of the Class A tankers!), however I've managed to do a decent-enough job with two steel rules and my small vice. The magic of this for me is to have "prototypically" thin walls and to be able to authentically reproduce bashing and smashing around the panels. And it'll look sharp, in comparison with an injection moulded plastic item. Plus - I'm slightly masochistic and a whole lot of etched brass sounds like a good way to keep me off the streets for a few nights....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Well done, I'm looking forward to this. I almost bought a small rake of these, and may still do while the offer is still on. I agree, this range of kits deserve much more exposure and seeing one completed should provide a boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 I got given a 'Diagram 1/109' rivetted 16t mineral wagon kit from MMP as a christmas presentLucky you! MMP kits have a pretty good reputation and only deserve the difficulty * label based on the number of parts (perhaps a few too many?). They are also priced a little high IMO which will put some off. It will go together well though and you should enjoy building it. Just take it easy and steady. A Hold'n'Fold is a little more useful than simple bending bars (which can be cheaply made from any straight edges) I'll be looking over your shoulder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 I have only ever used the MMP wagon detailing parts, as the kits are wrong era for me, but I cannot speak too highly of the products I have have bought or the service I've received. I am sure the kits will be great, although not the sort of thing that goes together on Sunday afternoon while watching TV at the same time. Many hours of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Pulham Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 They are also priced a little high IMO which will put some off. Hi Kenton, I have to confess that I am struggling to see how you call them high priced? - Most of the 4 wheeled MMP kits are around £43 inc VAT which certainly compares favourably these days with Connoisseur etc. I was lucky enough to get one of the LMS Roadstone wagons from the same stable for Christmas too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted December 27, 2013 Author Share Posted December 27, 2013 Lucky you! MMP kits have a pretty good reputation and only deserve the difficulty * label based on the number of parts (perhaps a few too many?). They are also priced a little high IMO which will put some off. It will go together well though and you should enjoy building it. Just take it easy and steady. A Hold'n'Fold is a little more useful than simple bending bars (which can be cheaply made from any straight edges) I'll be looking over your shoulder The hold and fold was, indeed, what I was thinking of but couldn't remember the brand name! As I plan to build a fair number of etched brass kits in time, it'll pay for itself. The price is not at-all crazy. f28.50 for this particular kit at present - for 500 parts - most of the other kits in the family are normally about 32-quid. Ignoring the absence of wheels - a plastic Slaters kit goes for the same kind of price. When you get stuck into this kit - you'll really see that the value-for-money is there in spades, to build up a true work of art. Small frustration came around with my new 'fancy-pants' soldering iron. I picked up a non-temperature-controlled version of the high quality Japanese Goot iron that I'd previously owned, expecting something more magical than the $30 iron I'd been using for everything with my electronics hobbies. Just can't get consistent heat through the tip - horrid to work with. The $30 iron smirks at me... and has done all the work so far (and is likely to continue right through...). I will invest in a proper temperature controlled unit. Being able to get more heat in surely helps when you're trying to flow solder along a lengthy joint. Cruel close-up, featuring the tiny clevises soldered inside the rail. Those are a precisely folded U-shape, fitted through two slots in the rail from the other side and soldered on the back. Genius stuff. I'm just warming up the iron to start play for the day, as are the gents down the road for Day 3 of the test... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted December 28, 2013 Author Share Posted December 28, 2013 Update at lunch on the 3rd day... The directions tell you... TRUST THE SUGGESTED ASSEMBLY ORDER... and think about the sensible order/placement of parts if the instructions aren't specific. I didn't realise that there were individual bracing plates at nearly every join (a number of which have been applied in the photo above now) - if you look at the photo in the post prior, I'd gotten over-zealous and gone and soldered over the joints for structural strength. I was able to neatly and carefully clean up/scrape the solder to enable the plates in the middle to be applied successfully. They're fiddly, but care and a small screwdriver for downward pressure gets them in the right spot, straight-and-square. Miniature sash clamps are added to the to-buy list! Not mandatory - but certainly a great help to keep the bufferbeams dead square in the vertical plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted December 28, 2013 Author Share Posted December 28, 2013 End of the day's play. The joggle-bent W-irons are proving very difficult. Given that I've accidentally damaged one of the overlays in trying to get the correct bend (you're ideally expected to perfectly match two joggle-bends on top of each other - seems incredibly difficult to execute!), I'm going to deviate slightly and snip off the joggle/bits on the 'Y' overlay pieces and then solder/laminate them. See how that ends up tomorrow... need to give it a rest today before I go blind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Well done, I'm looking forward to this. I almost bought a small rake of these, and may still do while the offer is still on. Only four kits left at the sale price as of this morning. DJP/MMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 End of the day's play. The joggle-bent W-irons are proving very difficult. Given that I've accidentally damaged one of the overlays in trying to get the correct bend (you're ideally expected to perfectly match two joggle-bends on top of each other - seems incredibly difficult to execute!), I'm going to deviate slightly and snip off the joggle/bits on the 'Y' overlay pieces and then solder/laminate them. See how that ends up tomorrow... need to give it a rest today before I go blind! Looks to me like you have tried to make the folds @ 90 degrees [virtually impossible] rather than approx. 45 - as per prototype. DJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Only four kits left at the sale price as of this morning. DJP/MMP I'm away for the weekend but would like to reserve 3 if poss. I appreciate this is an unauthodox ordering method...Steve (SteveO on WT) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I'm away for the weekend but would like to reserve 3 if poss. I appreciate this is an unauthodox ordering method... Steve (SteveO on WT) Steve - just order through the web site - they won't go out until Monday now anyway. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted December 28, 2013 Author Share Posted December 28, 2013 Looks to me like you have tried to make the folds @ 90 degrees [virtually impossible] rather than approx. 45 - as per prototype. DJP ....that'd be my mistake!! I can correct it - just something to add to the memory bank for next time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 ....that'd be my mistake!! I can correct it - just something to add to the memory bank for next time! If I may - I think this is also where a Hold & Fold or Etchmate comes into its own. You quote the instructions as saying "The directions tell you... TRUST THE SUGGESTED ASSEMBLY ORDER... and think about the sensible order/placement of parts if the instructions aren't specific". They do not. The assembly notes are headed 'Suggested Assembly Sequence" and the the introduction says: "A Hints and Tips sheet is included with these instructions, together with the main colour coded assembly drawings. These enable you to know, at a glance, how and from what material each area of the assembly is constructed and these MUST be used in conjuction with the notes below. Hopeless confusion will result if you do not! To avoid stating this over and over throughout these instructions - check every likely etched part to see if there is any push-through rivet detail present. See Hints and Tips sheet for a ‘Method’. Generally, this should be done prior to any forming of the part. Some etched parts may have the push through rivet detail on the front of the part rather than on the rear and where this is the case it is for sound reasons. Where there is rivet detail on the rear face of a part as illustrated in the assembly drawing this is NOT shown as it may lead to confusion with parts that do have rivet detail and are viewed from the front in the assembly drawings. So the bottom line is - trust us! Push through the rivets whether they be on the front of a part, or on the back and all will be apparent as assembly proceeds. All etched parts are numbered on the frets for easy indentification. Generally, all fold lines are on the inside of the fold BUT not always. For example, those where 180 degree folds are required or where a fold is required next to a fragile area will often have the fold lines on the OUTSIDE of the part. Be guided by the assembly drawing and NOT by which side you think the fold line should be on". Hope that clarifies things. DJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Bought one...couldn't resist at that price, those wagons are amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Bought one...couldn't resist at that price, those wagons are amazing. You got the last one Jeff - all gone now at that price! 1/109 kits at regular price will be back in stock Late Jan. One only now left on the LMS Bogie Bolster C Offer as well. Regards, DJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted December 29, 2013 Author Share Posted December 29, 2013 Small update without a picture... as I've had to back-track a little due to foolishly jumping ahead of the process with the afore-mentioned W-irons. I have folded the clever etched hornblocks up - excellent engineering - and noted their fit-and-function with the laminated W-irons. I need to order a new broach or two before fitting the bearings as I seem to have lost mine - the holes are the tiniest little bit too neat. Will put some more progress snaps later in the week - I should be able to put in some time on New Years Day again... Exceptional engineering on this. I worked in a steel fabrication company many years ago, and this kit brings back a lot of memories of 3-20mm thick laser cut steel kits-of-parts building truck bodies up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Daren't go back to the website for a while, David, too many goodies attracting me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagpipes331 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Hi, I purchased this wagon after my 1st etched brass kit success, a Connoisseur BR brake van, using a 40W iron with screwdriver shaped bit. The kit was a dream to build and boosted my confidence to the extent that I was going to go for the MMP dogfish. After a chat with Dave, I opted for the rivetted wagon, and also bought a GW models rivet punch (Basic model) which is great. I also built a M&M dogfish, which had it been my firt build may have been my last. Looking forward to your build progression.... (Particularly the suspension!!!) If ok I may also post some of my build pics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 Go for it bagpipes - two of my other extra-curricular activities have been stealing away my time and I've not had a chance to go and pick up some necessary tools to progress much further! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
117puzzler Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Nice work. Iv just started the catfish hopper from MMP that I was gifted last year that too looks a lovely kit and them 16 tonners are very very tempting indeed. Looking forward to Seeing your progress. Keep the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 Little update.... not little in terms of fiddly-ness but in little pieces. I built up one of the hooks with the recommended four inner layers - it wouldn't fit in the cavity at all. I reassembled it with three layers and it was a fractionally loose fit; with the spring retaining it, it'll be perfect. Ended up with a set of etched bits for a spare 3rd hook - built it up to add to the pile of bits to decorate the layout. I've conceded that my 'damage' to the W-irons, due to folding/assembling the wrong way, suggested in my earlier post can't be neatly repaired. Lesson learned, without too many tears really. I'll order a new set in the next few weeks (good that the etch is offered as a separate item!) while also ordering the next wagon kit to back this one up - either a GLW tank (I do dearly want one!) or a re-bodied 16t without the top doors. I'll ultimately want a few variants of the steel minerals for my new layout, all beaten to within an inch of their life I don't feel too bad about 'waste', as I'm now bolstering the clutter piles for the interior of the wagon repair workshop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djparkins Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Little update.... not little in terms of fiddly-ness but in little pieces. I built up one of the hooks with the recommended four inner layers - it wouldn't fit in the cavity at all. I reassembled it with three layers and it was a fractionally loose fit; with the spring retaining it, it'll be perfect. Ended up with a set of etched bits for a spare 3rd hook - built it up to add to the pile of bits to decorate the layout. I've conceded that my 'damage' to the W-irons, due to folding/assembling the wrong way, suggested in my earlier post can't be neatly repaired. Lesson learned, without too many tears really. I'll order a new set in the next few weeks (good that the etch is offered as a separate item!) while also ordering the next wagon kit to back this one up - either a GLW tank (I do dearly want one!) or a re-bodied 16t without the top doors. I'll ultimately want a few variants of the steel minerals for my new layout, all beaten to within an inch of their life I don't feel too bad about 'waste', as I'm now bolstering the clutter piles for the interior of the wagon repair workshop! Remember to shape the ends of the hooks to get a nice rounded appearance. The slot is .04mm over the the width of four layers of brass but its important that there is absolutey no build up of solder between the individual parts. The Instanter links are posed upside-down but that is easy to sort. DJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagpipes331 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I've got the chassis fitted out, apart from wheels, leaf springs etc. I made the mistake of using solder paste betwen the coupling hooks, and ended up filing back behind the hook to fit through the coupling plate. Enjoying the build, not museum quality,(my fault NOT the kit) but it's a fun learning curve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 Remember to shape the ends of the hooks to get a nice rounded appearance. The slot is .04mm over the the width of four layers of brass but its important that there is absolutey no build up of solder between the individual parts. The Instanter links are posed upside-down but that is easy to sort. DJP I may well have had a hair's breadth more solder flow in between the layers due to uneven pressure in 'clamping'? Either way, the end result is quite serviceable and doesn't slop around. I'm investing in some better clamps and a higher grade miniature vice for doing these sorts of multi-layer laminations to ensure I'm getting the correct functional thickness for the next kit build. I use a small (but cheap) mini vice and it's not the best. I also need to get a new fine file before I curve the hooks up! I'm going to do up some of the other fiddly and threatening-looking bits over the weekend like the brake shoes. Face your fears head-on, etc...! I agree with Bagpipes - this particular one of mine might not end up being 100% up to the potential of the kit, but I reckon a few kits down the line, I could end up with some really special results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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