92214 Cock of the North to stay at the GCR (Now Central Star) - Soon to be 92220 Evening Star

[byron]

I do, If I'm going to pay good money to see these locos then I expect authenticity. It costs me between £300 and £350 for a weekend away and I want value for money. And for me value comes from appropriate curating, not an 8F in crimson lake, a 9F in BR lined black or a Manor in BR blue. Last March I went to the WSR to see the Didcot railmotor and some w****r put a 'Cornish Riviera' headboard on the damned thing. It completely ruined the film and it'll be a long time before I spend any part of my pension in West Somerset, coming, as it did, on a fair number of disastrous WSR galas .

 

I think it can be fairly said that the heritage railway movement has grown up. Unfortunately in doing so it has attracted a lot of 'suits' whose attitudes are the complete antithesis to those volunteers who built up the railways to where they are now. The 'suits' see the railways as a career opportunity - completely the opposite to those volunteers and the railways are suffering as a result. 

 

Regards

So, you would like authenticity. One loco in steam, a couple of trains per day? That is how 90% of "preserved" railways were operated. Hardly a good investment for an outlay of £300 or so.

And as for the headboard, why not? It gave more folk enjoyment than had their day spoilt. There is a prototype for everytning. As a young "spotter" I recall 47270 at Stoke shunting all day with "The Comet" headboard - borrowed of a failed Scot the previous day.

This hobby (generic railways) is all about fun and live and let live.

 

Mike

[37255]

Ask any mum dad or kid on there visit if they have come to see the Pecket with the incorrect paint job and paid hard cash to do so and I bet 99.9% will say "No Thomas"

But then joe public never notice the name!

 

But ask them if they'd have been disappointed if Thomas hadn't been lined out, and see how many say yes...

[stewartingram]

OK authenticity?

I bet if I said LNER N7 69621, which is preserved, you would say it is as authentic as they come. It is after all owned by a 'preservation society', not directly owned by an operating railway, and throughout preservation has been painted in authentic liveries (haven't checked the fine detail of lining etc though!).

 

WRONG

 

Quite a few years ago, when I was a regular at the Cambridge Railway Circle lectures/slide shows, we had a guest appearance from one of the owning group. Very good presentation from him, but what surprised me was the number of modifications that they had carried out to that (quite simple) loco, either just to keep it running (lack of original parts being available) or modifications to improve reliability or ease of maintenance. Yet we all thought it was an outstanding restoration of a loco, kept in impeccable condition. (Though being ex GER, we were a tad biased). Do these mods really matter? They are documented for historical reasons by the owning group, but it enables the loco to be kept alive. It is once again part of the ONGOING HISTORY OF THE LOCO. I make no apologies for the capital letters, see my earlier post!

And I'm not criticising the N7 group either!

(Just keeping things in perspective).,

 

Stewart

[Londontram]

But ask them if they'd have been disappointed if Thomas hadn't been lined out, and see how many say yes...

OK yeh I'll give you that one   

[bluebottle]

OK authenticity?

I bet if I said LNER N7 69621, which is preserved, you would say it is as authentic as they come. It is after all owned by a 'preservation society', not directly owned by an operating railway, and throughout preservation has been painted in authentic liveries (haven't checked the fine detail of lining etc though!).

 

WRONG

 

Quite a few years ago, when I was a regular at the Cambridge Railway Circle lectures/slide shows, we had a guest appearance from one of the owning group. Very good presentation from him, but what surprised me was the number of modifications that they had carried out to that (quite simple) loco, either just to keep it running (lack of original parts being available) or modifications to improve reliability or ease of maintenance. Yet we all thought it was an outstanding restoration of a loco, kept in impeccable condition. (Though being ex GER, we were a tad biased). Do these mods really matter? They are documented for historical reasons by the owning group, but it enables the loco to be kept alive. It is once again part of the ONGOING HISTORY OF THE LOCO. I make no apologies for the capital letters, see my earlier post!

And I'm not criticising the N7 group either!

(Just keeping things in perspective).,

 

Stewart

 

That's a sound and thoughtful argument, Stewart, and I would applaud the efforts of 69621's owners, with their pragmatic approach to keeping it in running order. This could be described as “authentic” in that similar measures might well have been taken by the loco's original owners, if necessary, which is why one is well-advised to look for photographs of an individual example of a class when planning a model of that individual.

To return to the question of “Cock o' the North” (sorry!), the A1 trust have a sound reason for not proposing to use that name in that their P2 will take advantage of later technological advances in steam locomotive engineering to overcome problems with Gresley's original (which approach I'm sure would have met with Sir Nigel's approval). Some of these changes will alter “2007”'s appearance, but without losing the aesthetic appeal of the original design. The Doncaster P2 trust's projected replica of the streamlined “Cock o' the North”, which I hope will also be successful, might lead to unnecessary confusion (and yes, I know that there were examples of railway companies using the same names, but newbuilds are far fewer and high-profile) with No 92214.

OK, I might be a voice crying in the wilderness, but, dammit, I got “Radio Times” to emend their historically inaccurate review of the historically inaccurate “Braveheart”!

Say not the struggle naught availeth!

[Dava]

Are we overlooking the fact that the GCR now has about the best collection of BR Standards & great skills in restoring them? 3 working, 5 total + the 'Clan' to come. A 4MT would be useful (2-6-4T)?

 

Dava

[andyram]

I do, If I'm going to pay good money to see these locos then I expect authenticity. It costs me between £300 and £350 for a weekend away and I want value for money. And for me value comes from appropriate curating, not an 8F in crimson lake, a 9F in BR lined black or a Manor in BR blue. Last March I went to the WSR to see the Didcot railmotor and some w****r put a 'Cornish Riviera' headboard on the damned thing. It completely ruined the film and it'll be a long time before I spend any part of my pension in West Somerset, coming, as it did, on a fair number of disastrous WSR galas .

 

I think it can be fairly said that the heritage railway movement has grown up. Unfortunately in doing so it has attracted a lot of 'suits' whose attitudes are the complete antithesis to those volunteers who built up the railways to where they are now. The 'suits' see the railways as a career opportunity - completely the opposite to those volunteers and the railways are suffering as a result. 

 

Regards

 

For the record! Some of these so called "suits" are helping certain railways develop as a business and this allows them to have a chance of surviving for future generations to enjoy. As a GCR volunteer I cannot say I a complete fan of inauthentic liveries. However the chairman recently went on record, in Steam Railway magazine, stating that takings for a normal running weekend were always significantly "up" when people know the red 8F is running. It appeals to families more than the procession of black locomotives in the fleet.

 Perhaps some of these family members will become the next generation of volunteers!!!

[PhilH]

Not wishing to be rude but.....

 

Running a Heritage railway is an expensive business and, put simply Enthusiasts simply do not generate enough money to keep the thing going. As a person you have every right to be annoyed about "incorrect" liveries but if Heritage railways followed your advice then most would become bankrupt and be forced to shut down very quickly. If you want to keep steam locos in steam (bearing in mind eventually big ticket things like boilers will need replacing), keep LNER teak stock in service, never mind restore something else  etc. you need to follow the money, which is overwhelmingly generated by the ordinary 'joe public' who don't care about colour schemes, incorrect headboards, but do like 'pretty lined out engines (preferably with names), pulling clean and tidy carriages calling at stations with decent toilets, somewhere to buy some food and maybe a little memento of their visit. Now of course all that doesn't mean Heritage railways should ignore the enthusiast element of the market but we need to be sensible. Heritage railways are, at the end of the day a business not a private plaything and must earn their keep to survive in the modern world.

 

Also I would point out many of those 'suits' as you put it are needed thanks to the fact the whole legislative and indeed commercial environment Heritage railways in which we operate in today. There are plenty of examples of practices being carried out in the mid 80s that would see a railway being shut immediately if they were still doing them now. Heritage railways these days are leicened to opperate by the ORR who take a very dim view of organisations not complying with modern standards as laid out in the ROGS legislation. In terms of documentation anything a Heritage Railway produces has to be of the same quality as a regular TOC in many areas (obviously the details will be different). Examples such as having up to date, regularly reviewed Safety Management Structure, ensuring good cooperate governance, making sure volunteer staff are trained assessed and competent to carry out the roles, that those doing the training are themselves competent and the material they are using is correct, ensuring procedures are in place to ensure staff be the volunteer or paid are fit and they do not exceed the working time directive etc. There is also the issue that the larger an organisation gets the more difficult it is for volunteers to keep on top of everything, you can of course bring in more volunteers but that brings problems of coordination so you need a strong board to keep things in check. Then again maybe its more effective to pay a single person instead or it could be that none of the volunteers have the right skill set.

 

As for the 9F, I actually think it looks quite good in mixed traffic livery and certainly the chosen name suits the loco in my view - just as David Shepard's choice of "Black Price" did (though in that case maybe unlined black is a bit of a better fit with the name)

Absolutely...

 

Thank God for mum, dad and 2.4 and the 'suits' who market heritage railways as attractive places for them to spend a day and cash.

 

With just the 'old time' volunteers (of which I'm one) and everything just as it was in 1959 or whatever I certainly wouldn't have anywhere to go to drive steam engines up and down the line, all you'd get is 10 old men in grubby overcoats a day (I also belong to that group).

 

(Not sure about the 9f though....)

[S.A.C Martin]

Actually the piece of string is quite short. FS was converted to a Group Standard A3 over quite a long time with a number of iterations concerning valve events (1930s), boiler update (1940s) but the final change to full Group Standard wasn't until it was converted to left hand drive in 1954 and then came the change to blinkers etc in late 1961 and withdrawal in 1963. Following this, it's clear that the only appropriate livery is BR green, no matter what the smokebox looks like.

 

That would be true were it not for the corridor tender (no A3 pulled one whilst in BR green). Any livery choice is going to be a compromise, which is the point I was trying to make (and if you read back my original post, I intimated as such and pointed out the left hand/right hand drive problem too).

 

 

My view is that there is really great importance to properly curating historical artefacts. The British Museum - amongst many others - does this and I look forward to the day when the Railway Heritage Movement understands that the only appropriate way to behave is to emulate this approach. FS is an artefact of international importance and the way that its millionaire owners and, currently, the NRM, have behaved towards it is a disgrace.

 

People should stop thinking of their railway as a full size toy!

 

Regards

 

 

Pegler preserved the locomotive and accepted that a restoration to 180lb boiler form complete with livery was impractical. No 180lb boilers existed by 1964 (and hadn't for nearly fifteen years) and a reversion to a non super heater headed locomotive was a retrograde step too far. So he compromised as the aim was to keep 4472 running, which is the difference between 4472 and, say, Coppernob in the NRM.

 

The compromise was the fitting of a single chimney and blast pipe (which, given that the A3s had all been converted by 1960 to double chimney form, begs the question - was it an A3 fitting or a Peppercorn A2 blast pipe utilised?) and the retrieval of an original corridor tender to replace the non corridor streamlined one.

 

So 4472 was repainted into apple green and was run thusly as an LNER liveried machine.

 

Pegler acted in the best interests of the locomotive at the time, and after all, was the first private owner of a mainline express passenger locomotive. It was never going to be 100% accurate and none of Scotsman's forms since in any ownership has given us a 100% accurate portrayal of the locomotive as in service with the LNER or BR.

 

The NRM inherited a basket case and are making the best of said basket case. They've restored the original A3 boiler - thus bringing the locomotive back to being more accurate to its working days. With a corridor tender it is not 100% accurate for its BR days (and requires a non corridor streamlined tender, coincidentally the same type as that found behind Mallard) and never will be.

 

I do feel you are being overly harsh to 4472 and its previous owners. Restoring 4472 to a specific point in its service life would have been impractical and impossible in 1964 unless the suggestion is that Pegler kept it in BR green and also kept it as a static exhibit. Its life has been much more interesting and exceptional whilst in LNER apple green and that's how it should remain regardless of form in my view. The left hand/right hand driving position problem is never going to go away, nor are the calls for apple green and BR green. So you, rightly, compromise on the issue and paint it in both liveries at differing times.

 

Now, if a single chimney and blast pipe is restored at the next overhaul, perhaps funds should be sought towards the building of a spare non corridor streamlined tender, so that Scotsman can appear as LNER/British Railways no.e103 or British Railways no.60103 in blue or dark green, and then everyone will be happy to a degree with the level of authenticity achieved. 

 

Preservation is as much about conservation as it is about compromise.

[coachmann]

Here's a change of tack from me not giving a crap.  Minutia bogs things down. What goes on inside the frames or under the boiler-cladding doesn't really come into it (although obvious exceptions come to mind).  It is the 'overall' that matters and if Joseph R. Bloggs doesn't know the difference, then there's nothing to lose by getting things right at the painting stage.  To me it is a matter of regarding paint in the same responsible way that people regard accurate lining up wheel bearings and cylinder and restoration. A Rebuilt Royal Scot in LMS red and an A3 with German smoke defectors in LNER livery is a pretty good way of misleading everybody including students of history when they turn up with their teacher. A rhetorical question.... Which came first, the public clamour for a Stanier 2-8-0 in red livery or some heritage site group saying it would be a brill idea? Why not treat the paying guests like intelligent adults and inform them that the this plain black 8F played an active part in World War 2 both here and abroad and is typical of the larger freight engines that moves household coal and freight in the halcyon days of Britain's railways?  It is hard enough discovering what really took place on our railways in the past without adding to the confusion.

[S.A.C Martin]

Here's a change of tack from me not giving a crap.  Minutia bogs things down. What goes on inside the frames or under the boiler-cladding doesn't really come into it (although obvious exceptions come to mind).  It is the 'overall' that matters and if Joseph R. Bloggs doesn't know the difference, then there's nothing to lose by getting things right at the painting stage.  To me it is a matter of regarding paint in the same responsible way that people regard accurate lining up wheel bearings and cylinder and restoration. A Rebuilt Royal Scot in LMS red and an A3 with German smoke defectors in LNER livery is a pretty good way of misleading everybody including students of history when they turn up with their teacher. A rhetorical question.... Which came first, the public clamour for a Stanier 2-8-0 in red livery or some heritage site group saying it would be a brill idea? Why not treat the paying guests like intelligent adults and inform them that the this plain black 8F played an active part in World War 2 both here and abroad and is typical of the larger freight engines that moves household coal and freight in the halcyon days of Britain's railways?  It is hard enough discovering what really took place on our railways in the past without adding to the confusion.

 

I don't disagree with you at all there Larry, the caveat I would make is that 4472 is best known in LNER livery to the general public and it's this livery which the NRM should aim to make the physical form right for.

 

I did think once of suggesting a swap of tenders, Mallard to Flying Scotsman, to make the BR dark green livery (and even apple green or express blue livery as no.103, e103 and latterly 60103) more authentic for 4472 (did Mallard not have a corridor tender at some point in garter blue?), but imagine the outcry if the NRM actually took that suggestion on…then I come back to the point, do we really absolutely need a corridor tender for working on the mainline? May make things easier for crew changes but then those running any other locomotive other than the A4s seem to manage perfectly well without this.

[phil-b259]

Here's a change of tack from me not giving a crap.  Minutia bogs things down. What goes on inside the frames or under the boiler-cladding doesn't really come into it (although obvious exceptions come to mind).  It is the 'overall' that matters and if Joseph R. Bloggs doesn't know the difference, then there's nothing to lose by getting things right at the painting stage.  To me it is a matter of regarding paint in the same responsible way that people regard accurate lining up wheel bearings and cylinder and restoration. A Rebuilt Royal Scot in LMS red and an A3 with German smoke defectors in LNER livery is a pretty good way of misleading everybody including students of history when they turn up with their teacher. A rhetorical question.... Which came first, the public clamour for a Stanier 2-8-0 in red livery or some heritage site group saying it would be a brill idea? Why not treat the paying guests like intelligent adults and inform them that the this plain black 8F played an active part in World War 2 both here and abroad and is typical of the larger freight engines that moves household coal and freight in the halcyon days of Britain's railways?  It is hard enough discovering what really took place on our railways in the past without adding to the confusion.

 

The vast majority of visitors to Heritage railways (especially family groups) are not going for a history lesson! - they are going for a good time. If you are a studying a particular time peroid then there are plenty of pictures etc to give you the info required and it is not that hard to get your brain to map that onto a physical loco. Besides to be pedantic if we are talking about replicating say WW2 conditions or BR days, the loco would be pretty filthy - especially locos like the 8F - but no family group is going to want to spend time at a Heritage railway where things don't look clean and cared for.

 

IIRC the reason for the maroon 8F was simply the fact that the owners did some research and found that joe public - who make up the majority of visitors prefered colourfull lined out engines. Consiquently the group decided it would make the loco more of an atractive and standout machine if they painted it as they did - after all its not as if its the only 8F out there for people to see is it.

[OOgaugeJaf]

It will be a massive miss on the moors, especially as they are so short on loco's at the moment

[bluebottle]

The vast majority of visitors to Heritage railways (especially family groups) are not going for a history lesson! - they are going for a good time. If you are a studying a particular time peroid then there are plenty of pictures etc to give you the info required and it is not that hard to get your brain to map that onto a physical loco. Besides to be pedantic if we are talking about replicating say WW2 conditions or BR days, the loco would be pretty filthy - especially locos like the 8F - but no family group is going to want to spend time at a Heritage railway where things don't look clean and cared for.

 

IIRC the reason for the maroon 8F was simply the fact that the owners did some research and found that joe public - who make up the majority of visitors prefered colourfull lined out engines. Consiquently the group decided it would make the loco more of an atractive and standout machine if they painted it as they did - after all its not as if its the only 8F out there for people to see is it.

 

I saw plenty of mucky Riddles Austerity 2-8-0s trundling through Woodhouse station on the ex-GC line back in the fifties, and the "weathering" job on the KWVR's loco brought back memories, but I won't be sorry to see it shiny black again next visit. Still, I can't get my head round a red Stanier 8F. Just ignore me, I really don't want to debate the matter ...

[andyram]

Latest news regarding the 9F is that it is set to appear at a forthcoming gala in unlined black and in weathered condition. However this is set to be followed by a repaint into B.R lined green livery, ala Evening Star. The locomotive will then be renamed. It has already lost its Cock O The North nameplates. The two names mentioned in the railway press are "Cromwell Warrior" or "Central Star". The former now appears unlikely, but the latter is one of four names being considered!

[Dava]

Its an excellent loco. Evening Star will not steam again - would you trust the NRM after Scotsman? - so green is permissible but some will confuse it with Cromwell!

 

Dava

[Talltim]

Is that at one of the Garden Festivals?

If this was a new argument you would be right but this turkey has been tossed around as long as the preservation movement has been going and no I wouldn’t mind what colour a London tram was painted as long as it was saved. I went on the centre entrance Feltham when she was in the bright blue British steel colours and I was mighty glad I had the chance to ride on her too something I might not have ever done if they hadn’t helped finance her return to running order. Steve

[Colin]

Re the crimson 8F - my first thought was that someone in the owning group took a look at an old Wrenn catalogue and thought "my, that's a good idea".

 

Personally I think it looks bl00dy silly, but if running it means the railway gets extra backsides on the seats of a train of Mk1 TSOs then I suppose it makes sound economic sense and you can't argue with that in these difficult times.

I'd much rather everything was in an authentic livery but it's not my full size trainset so it isn't going to happen. It would be nice if the history lesson and the good time for all the family could be successfully combined, but compromises obviously have to be made. When I visit a preserved line, I've become quite good at ignoring the more obviously inappropriate liveries and concentrating on the ones that appeal to me!

[PhilH]

Just having another browse through this thread, quite amusing. One thing caught my eye, this, 'or some heritage site group saying it would be a brill idea?'

 

I take it we mean 'some heritage site group' who actually got off their backsides and put the time, effort and money into getting the thing going?

 

There are those who do and those who moan, and never the twain shall meet....this from bitter experience.

[stewartingram]

Re the crimson 8F - my first thought was that someone in the owning group took a look at an old Wrenn catalogue and thought "my, that's a good idea".

 

Personally I think it looks bl00dy silly, but if running it means the railway gets extra backsides on the seats of a train of Mk1 TSOs then I suppose it makes sound economic sense and you can't argue with that in these difficult times.

I'd much rather everything was in an authentic livery but it's not my full size trainset so it isn't going to happen. It would be nice if the history lesson and the good time for all the family could be successfully combined, but compromises obviously have to be made. When I visit a preserved line, I've become quite good at ignoring the more obviously inappropriate liveries and concentrating on the ones that appeal to me!

The story I heard was it was paited red (oxide) as an undercoat, then someone said it was looking a bit like LMS red and different, so they gave it a coat of proper red, prior to proper black. Because it was so different it attracted attention, so the red was retained for a while; subsequent move of base has seemingly deferred the black repaint.

 

Stewart

[Hallstaff]

So if true authenticity is the only way to go, how does one get over the highest profile offender?  Tornado was never owned by British Railways yet it runs in their livery.  So what would be an authentic livery for it? Perhaps the first livery painted by its owners?  To carry this specious argument forward, what if the owners had painted it blue with pink spots - that surely would make it 'authentic'!  'Ah yes' you say 'but it is a replica designed to represent a class of locomotive that once existed but is now extinct'.  In that case it is not authentic because it wears a name plate never worn by a member of the class.

 

Perhaps it should be the livery most associated with the locomotive.  Take Lydham Manor then - the vast majority of its working life has been spent running in a lined out pseudo Great Western livery.  Surely that livery is now more 'authentic' for that locomotive than the BR black livery it currently wears.  92214 is another locomotive that will probably run longer in preservation (perhaps in its current livery) than it did under BR ownership.

 

The whole authenticity argument is nonsense.  Many BR Standards wore lined black livery - just as it happens none of the 9Fs (until now) so its not really very unauthentic.  Lets face it, if its lack of authenticity offends, then don't look at it!  There are plenty of other people who will appreciate the true merit of the locomotive and its restoration.

[coachmann]

Just having another browse through this thread, quite amusing. One thing caught my eye, this, 'or some heritage site group saying it would be a brill idea?'

 

I take it we mean 'some heritage site group' who actually got off their backsides and put the time, effort and money into getting the thing going?

 

There are those who do and those who moan, and never the twain shall meet....this from bitter experience.

You know sweet f-all about me or my private activities. You, on the otherhand,  generally come of RMweb to lord it over other members without actually contributing anything and I get the distinct impression you are letting the little people know you drive a big engine. 

[andyram]

I must admit I am not exactly sure about the idea of painting the 9F in green, nor am I a great fan of the red 8F. However if they help to bring in the families to spend the money and keep the line going then so be it. Yes it would be great for all lines to be a perfect recreation of the past days of steam, and many may argue that is what they should be. However some good points are made on here. Railway preservation has been around for so long that it is almost developing its own history. Who can forget:

* The Caledonian liveried Fairburn

* The KWVR liveried Ivatt tank

* The blue liveried "Canadian Pacific"

 

How many people now accept a 9F called "Black Prince" or a K1 in the highlands called "Lord of the Isles" or even Black 5's called "The Sherwood Forrester" or "Eric Treacy".None of this is relevant for pre 1968 but are now part of history - just as some of the "fictious" liveries carried by KWVR locos in the classic film "The Railway Children".

 

Did Duke of Gloucester carry metal numbers during steam days? I saw this the other year!! Oh and the B.R maroon Jublilee does not get the same vitorol as the red 8F!!!

 

Maybe we should be a little more tolerant in order for our steam lines to survive. When the name for 92214 is selected I hope that the name chosen will become as iconic as Black Prince.

[PhilH]

You know sweet f-all about me or my private activities. You, on the otherhand,  generally come of RMweb to lord it over other members without actually contributing anything and I get the distinct impression you are letting the little people know you drive a big engine.

 

Thanks Larry, I needed a chuckle today.

[S.A.C Martin]

So if true authenticity is the only way to go, how does one get over the highest profile offender?  Tornado 

 

Er - what? Highest profile offender? That's ridiculous. The locomotive has appeared in a form and function more or less 100% correct for the A1s as built and in their lifetimes - the only major compromise is name and number (accepting necessary items for mainline running and the position of the smokebox numberplate and top lamp iron in the earlier liveries).

 

She's even run without a name when originally outshopped in apple green which was correct for the majority outshopped by both Darlington and Doncaster.

 

 

...was never owned by British Railways yet it runs in their livery.  

 

 

Neither does the repatriated WD 2-8-0 or 2-10-0 and they are not high profile offenders! 

 

So what would be an authentic livery for it?

 

Possibly - I don't know - British Railways livery as that's what every single previous Peppercorn A1 carried?

 

 

 

 

Perhaps the first livery painted by its owners?  

 

 

To carry this specious argument forward, what if the owners had painted it blue with pink spots - that surely would make it 'authentic'!  

 

'Ah yes' you say 'but it is a replica designed to represent a class of locomotive that once existed but is now extinct'.  In that case it is not authentic because it wears a name plate never worn by a member of the class.

 

 

I think you are missing the point. An authentic livery does not also equate a like for like portrayal. Tornado has never been sold as anything more than "the next in the class" - a "what if" 50th Peppercorn A1 that happened to be built 60 years later. Her liveries are real liveries which have existed on other class members and are authentic and sympathetic reproductions of that worn by 60113-60162 (including GN which shared the same liveries). 

 

Perhaps it should be the livery most associated with the locomotive.  Take Lydham Manor then - the vast majority of its working life has been spent running in a lined out pseudo Great Western livery.  Surely that livery is now more 'authentic' for that locomotive than the BR black livery it currently wears.  

 

It's not "accurate" for that particular locomotive (Lydham Manor was BR built) but it IS authentic for other members of the same class - so GWR green is both right and wrong. Wrong, because this locomotive never wore it in service, but right because it is representative of other class members and therefore still "authentic".

 

92214 is another locomotive that will probably run longer in preservation (perhaps in its current livery) than it did under BR ownership.

 

Yes, probably but the locomotives have been preserved for future generations to show what steam looked, sounded and felt like in service when railways were run by steam - therefore the logic follows they should actually depict a real period of time when the locomotives were at work and not in preservation.

 

The whole authenticity argument is nonsense.  

 

 

I think you have missed the point. It goes two ways - accurate and authentic. They are not mutually exclusive of one another. Dressing one British built and British owned, and British used 8F as a Turkish 8F is not accurate for that locomotive but it is authentic for the class at a period in time, and vice versa.

 

Many BR Standards wore lined black livery - just as it happens none of the 9Fs (until now) so its not really very unauthentic.  

 

The 9Fs never wore it so it is both inaccurate and inauthentic. If mixed traffic black were applied to Princess Elizabeth, that would be accurate and authentic. If unlined BR black was applied to Evening Star, it would be inaccurate for the locomotive but authentic and representative of the class 9F as a whole. See the distinction?