brittannia Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Hello, My Roco Multimause transformer adapter has failed, but I have a couple of other adapters off other non railway equipment and I was wondering if they would be safe to use for the Dcc system The Voltages on the failed Roco transformer is 230V AC 50/60 Hz to 16VAC 50VA , the spare adapters read 230 V 50Hz 500mA. I did a little trial and the Roco control lit up and I managed to move a small 0-6-0 engine a couple of inches ,I did not want to use it any longer until I got some confirmation that it would not do any damage to the other parts of the Roco system or loco. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 To get good effect, you should use a transformer that gives 16 V AC and up to 3 Ah. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The ROCO DCC units will run on AC or DC, the Roco transformers are a bit on the high side voltage wise, I find I get better control with a DC power supply of 13.5 or 15V, 12V is a bit low for 4mm, probably OK for N. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brittannia Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 The ROCO DCC units will run on AC or DC, the Roco transformers are a bit on the high side voltage wise, I find I get better control with a DC power supply of 13.5 or 15V, 12V is a bit low for 4mm, probably OK for N. Keith Hello Keith, thank you for your reply, I only want to use the spare adapter as a temporary measure for testing outside my Railway room which is powered by the Roco z21 system and the multimaus controller as an extra for my tablet and smart phone. What I want to know would the spare adapter be OK for occasional use without causing any damage to the Multimaus power system and any DCC locomotives as a stand by system Looking on web it would appear the figurations could be ok for occasional use ,but I am not sure . John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brittannia Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 To get good effect, you should use a transformer that gives 16 V AC and up to 3 Ah. Hello, Thanks for your reply , I want to know if I can use the 15volts 500mA as a temporary use for eg testing locos when away from my railway room which is powered by Roco z21 System Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 21, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2014 Hello, Thanks for your reply , I want to now if I can use the 15volts 500mA as a temporary use for eg testing locos when away from my railway room which is powered by Roco z21 System Simple answer: Yes Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brittannia Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 Simple answer: Yes Andi Hello Andi Thanks for your reply and confirmation John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The most a[ppropriate replacement Power Supply for the Roco Amplifier/Multimaus is a Modern SWITCHED MODE POWER SUPPLY of 18Vdc Output and 3.5-4.0 maximum Amp rating - these are readily available for about 30GBP - 20GBP and are sold as Replacement Power Supplies for Laptop Computers. NOTE that in current sets, Roco provide a SMALL 18Vdc SMPS with a current capability of about 1 Amp or so. The old transformer was not only heavy and 'energy inefficient' [ and therefore not allowed to be supplied now in sets in the EC, except for using up remaining stock or as a replacement spare ] but, as was commented elsewhere, and in common with all standard transformers, had an unregulated output: The rated 16V ac (when used with a 230Vac input) is obtained when the FULL current is being taken (about 3A+). When little current is being taken, the output voltage naturally rises, and you may notice this with bulb coach lighting when the trains are stationary !!! In the UK (which is on the + side of the 230V +/- tolerance) with nothing running, this can give a dcc track voltage of 20-22V !! Note that 18Vdc into the Roco Amplifier produces about 16Vdcc track voltage - which is the specification Roco expect .... that then gives about 14 V after the bridge rectifier in a decoder, and then about 12V resching the motor. Note that although motors are described as '12V', as with 'Car 12V', this is a nominal value .. and a car battery can be at 14.4V for example. Tria-ng controllers used to be labelled as having something like 14-16V DC output, and my olf H&M DC20 '12V' output gives nearer 20V .... the days prior to modern electronic regulation. USING A DC POWER SUPPLY of only 12-14V into the ROCO AMPLIFIER will be found to be TOO LOW for correct operation. If in doubt - monitor the outout waveform on an oscilloscope. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Quite likely it is just a blown cap or resistor, certainly that was the case with mine, think theres a posting on one of the old rmweb forums re it, very easilly fixed once you break open the case and the cost is that of the replacement component and a new case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brittannia Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 The most a[ppropriate replacement Power Supply for the Roco Amplifier/Multimaus is a Modern SWITCHED MODE POWER SUPPLY of 18Vdc Output and 3.5-4.0 maximum Amp rating - these are readily available for about 30GBP - 20GBP and are sold as Replacement Power Supplies for Laptop Computers. NOTE that in current sets, Roco provide a SMALL 18Vdc SMPS with a current capability of about 1 Amp or so. The old transformer was not only heavy and 'energy inefficient' [ and therefore not allowed to be supplied now in sets in the EC, except for using up remaining stock or as a replacement spare ] but, as was commented elsewhere, and in common with all standard transformers, had an unregulated output: The rated 16V ac (when used with a 230Vac input) is obtained when the FULL current is being taken (about 3A+). When little current is being taken, the output voltage naturally rises, and you may notice this with bulb coach lighting when the trains are stationary !!! In the UK (which is on the + side of the 230V +/- tolerance) with nothing running, this can give a dcc track voltage of 20-22V !! Note that 18Vdc into the Roco Amplifier produces about 16Vdcc track voltage - which is the specification Roco expect .... that then gives about 14 V after the bridge rectifier in a decoder, and then about 12V resching the motor. Note that although motors are described as '12V', as with 'Car 12V', this is a nominal value .. and a car battery can be at 14.4V for example. Tria-ng controllers used to be labelled as having something like 14-16V DC output, and my olf H&M DC20 '12V' output gives nearer 20V .... the days prior to modern electronic regulation. USING A DC POWER SUPPLY of only 12-14V into the ROCO AMPLIFIER will be found to be TOO LOW for correct operation. If in doubt - monitor the outout waveform on an oscillHell Hello Phil, Thank you for your detailed explanation. what was confusing me was the conversion of 50Va to 500 mA,which I understand from my web seeking is on the low side ,the dc output at 15V is the same as the Roco System,what concerns more than any thing by using the replacement adapter, if it would cause any damage to loco ,decoder or other parts of the Multimaus system, I had only intended to use it very sparingly on a testing track for locos and not to run trains. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brittannia Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 Quite likely it is just a blown cap or resistor, certainly that was the case with mine, think theres a posting on one of the old rmweb forums re it, very easilly fixed once you break open the case and the cost is that of the replacement component and a new case. Hello Thank you for your valuable information on repairing the components , John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Caution: There appears to be some confusion of terminology being used here ... making it possibly unclear - at least to future readers, as to what component has failed and in which device; and therefore an appropriate method of repair!. A Transformer (as originally supplied by Roco, has MAINS ac in, and low voltage ac OUT. Whereas an 'Adapter' is not very specific and might do anything. An earlier poster referred to a Capacitor in a suggested repair ... this is likely to have been found in the Roco AMPLIFIER 10764 Starting with the original default Roco System: . A MAINS TRANSFORMER: input '230Vac' (ie 220-240Vac allowing for mains voltage tolerances ... 230 having replaced the separate 220 / 240 values. This is rated at 50VA (both upper case letters: the product of Volts and Amps, and fo this purpose can be considered as equivalent to 50 Watts MAXIMUM (ignoring 'power factors etc) The OUTPUT of the TRANSFORMER is 'NOTIONALLY' 16V ac ..... that is when taking the MAXIMUM current and Power, ie 50W P=IV 50 = I x 16 => .... I = 3.125 Amps MAXIMUM (0 minimum). The transformers rarely fail, in my experience, but do have the usual thermal cutouts etc. A failed tranformer is a 'lifetime' source of copper enamelled wire 8-) Transformers run warm. This is connected via a Coaxial plug into the ROCO AMPLIFIER 10764** .... which requires EITHER a Roco/Fleischmann MULTIMAUS or a Roco Maus2 to be plugged into its MASTER socket with a 6-pin cable. This is then the MASTER CONTROLLER (whose memory is used between sessions), and IT generates the DCC signal (at low level) which is passed back to the AMPLIFIER (which is is actually IDENTICAL to the 'Booster' they also sell - just using different connections). The AMPLIFIER then boosts the signal to DCCtrack voltage and outputs it via a 2-pin plug. UNLIKE some other 'Master Central Units', the Amplifier DOES NOT REGULATE the track voltage .... Therefore, when used with the 50Hz Mains Transformer, and NO CURRENT is being TAKEN ... the ranfsformer output voltage trises well above 16v ac and the TRACK VOLTAGE can reach 20-21Vdcc. (UK mains voltage CAN reach 250Vac at times) THIS IS WHY some people used to add a couple of diodes / back to back diodes in the low voltage supply to reduce the voltage range ... but a better way is also the method used now by Roco... A Switched Mode Power Supply is Efficient and Regulated ... but a DC output. 18V DC is the correct voltage to use with the Multimaus/.Amplifier. This will give a 16Vdcc track voltage which IS STABLE. (and accurate - as measured by oscilloscopes and RRampmeter and Fluke Meter. Swtiched Mode Power Supplies run COOL when little current is being taken. As with Hornby, Roco NOW supply an 18V dc 1 Amp (or similar) Power supply which is sufficient for the Starter Set ....... Hornby also sell an 'after market' 4A supply ... Roco similarly I think, but... I use (various makes) of 'Computer Laptop SMPS' of 18Vdc 3.5-4A rating. I originally experimented with selectable voltage versions, until I found the optimum voltage (this before roco's SMPS) As I said before, 12V is TOO LOW !! **AN EARLIER TRANSFORMER had 2 press-terminals to connect the output wires to, was rated at 15Vac o/p and connected to the earlier Roco Amplifier which had less output protection. THE ROCO AMPLIFIER can accept EITHER an AC or DC input (and is now labelled as such - since the Multimaus CentralePro) because it has a FULL-WAVE BRIDGE RECTIFIER immediately after the input socket. Note that the input voltage range quoted for ac or dc is not the same !! ... this is because of the (expected) sinusoidal voltage of the ac, and its 1.4x peaks, and the effect of the smooting capacitor. It may have been THIS or another capacitor inside the AMPLIFIER which was being referred to in an earlier posting ??? .... but not in the TRANSFORMER (mistakenly referred to as 'Adapter'). Too low a voltage to the Amplifier may result in excess heat, and incorrect waveform shape (transistors not turning fully on as intended). Programming of Roco Point Motors fails too ! If you have MORE than 1 Amplifier (eg, as the OP now has.. a Z21 and '764 amplifier).. often by having bought more than 1 starter set; AN AMPLIFIER MAY BE USED AS A BOOSTER even WITHOUT OPENING IT ... or by adding the missing socket with some soldering: When used as a Booster (with its own SMPS supply), DO NOT USE the 'Master' or 'Slave' sockets, but only the 4-pin Booster In/Out socket [marked as OUT]. The missing socket is paralleled, and to loop onto another Booster (4 maximum) you can either add the socket internally - with some soldering and a little cuting of the case - or simply use a Y-cable plug adapter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brittannia Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Caution: There appears to be some confusion of terminology being used here ... making it possibly unclear - at least to future readers, as to what component has failed and in which device; and therefore an appropriate method of repair!. A Transformer (as originally supplied by Roco, has MAINS ac in, and low voltage ac OUT. Whereas an 'Adapter' is not very specific and might do anything. An earlier poster referred to a Capacitor in a suggested repair ... this is likely to have been found in the Roco AMPLIFIER 10764 Starting with the original default Roco System: . A MAINS TRANSFORMER: input '230Vac' (ie 220-240Vac allowing for mains voltage tolerances ... 230 having replaced the separate 220 / 240 values. This is rated at 50VA (both upper case letters: the product of Volts and Amps, and fo this purpose can be considered as equivalen Caution: There appears to be some confusion of terminology being used here ... making it possibly unclear - at least to future readers, as to what component has failed and in which device; and therefore an appropriate method of repair!. A Transformer (as originally supplied by Roco, has MAINS ac in, and low voltage ac OUT. Whereas an 'Adapter' is not very specific and might do anything. An earlier poster referred to a Capacitor in a suggested repair ... this is likely to have been found in the Roco AMPLIFIER 10764 Starting with the original default Roco System: . A MAINS TRANSFORMER: input '230Vac' (ie 220-240Vac allowing for mains voltage tolerances ... 230 having replaced the separate 220 / 240 values. This is rated at 50VA (both upper case letters: the product of Volts and Amps, and fo this purpose can be considered as equivalent to 50 Watts MAXIMUM (ignoring 'power factors etc) The OUTPUT of the TRANSFORMER is 'NOTIONALLY' 16V ac ..... that is when taking the MAXIMUM current and Power, ie 50W P=IV 50 = I x 16 => .... I = 3.125 Amps MAXIMUM (0 minimum). The transformers rarely fail, in my experience, but do have the usual thermal cutouts etc. A failed tranformer is a 'lifetime' source of copper enamelled wire 8-) Transformers run warm. This is connected via a Coaxial plug into the ROCO AMPLIFIER 10764** .... which requires EITHER a Roco/Fleischmann MULTIMAUS or a Roco Maus2 to be plugged into its MASTER socket with a 6-pin cable. This is then the MASTER CONTROLLER (whose memory is used between sessions), and IT generates the DCC signal (at low level) which is passed back to the AMPLIFIER (which is is actually IDENTICAL to the 'Booster' they also sell - just using different connections). The AMPLIFIER then boosts the signal to DCCtrack voltage and outputs it via a 2-pin plug. UNLIKE some other 'Master Central Units', the Amplifier DOES NOT REGULATE the track voltage .... Therefore, when used with the 50Hz Mains Transformer, and NO CURRENT is being TAKEN ... the ranfsformer output voltage trises well above 16v ac and the TRACK VOLTAGE can reach 20-21Vdcc. (UK mains voltage CAN reach 250Vac at times) THIS IS WHY some people used to add a couple of diodes / back to back diodes in the low voltage supply to reduce the voltage range ... but a better way is also the method used now by Roco... A Switched Mode Power Supply is Efficient and Regulated ... but a DC output. 18V DC is the correct voltage to use with the Multimaus/.Amplifier. This will give a 16Vdcc track voltage which IS STABLE. (and accurate - as measured by oscilloscopes and RRampmeter and Fluke Meter. Swtiched Mode Power Supplies run COOL when little current is being taken. As with Hornby, Roco NOW supply an 18V dc 1 Amp (or similar) Power supply which is sufficient for the Starter Set ....... Hornby also sell an 'after market' 4A supply ... Roco similarly I think, but... I use (various makes) of 'Computer Laptop SMPS' of 18Vdc 3.5-4A rating. I originally experimented with selectable voltage versions, until I found the optimum voltage (this before roco's SMPS) As I said before, 12V is TOO LOW !! **AN EARLIER TRANSFORMER had 2 press-terminals to connect the output wires to, was rated at 15Vac o/p and connected to the earlier Roco Amplifier which had less output protection. THE ROCO AMPLIFIER can accept EITHER an AC or DC input (and is now labelled as such - since the Multimaus CentralePro) because it has a FULL-WAVE BRIDGE RECTIFIER immediately after the input socket. Note that the input voltage range quoted for ac or dc is not the same !! ... this is because of the (expected) sinusoidal voltage of the ac, and its 1.4x peaks, and the effect of the smooting capacitor. It may have been THIS or another capacitor inside the AMPLIFIER which was being referred to in an earlier posting ??? .... but not in the TRANSFORMER (mistakenly referred to as 'Adapter'). Too low a voltage to the Amplifier may result in excess heat, and incorrect waveform shape (transistors not turning fully on as intended). Programming of Roco Point Motors fails too ! If you have MORE than 1 Amplifier (eg, as the OP now has.. a Z21 and '764 amplifier).. often by having bought more than 1 starter set; AN AMPLIFIER MAY BE USED AS A BOOSTER even WITHOUT OPENING IT ... or by adding the missing socket with some soldering: When used as a Booster (with its own SMPS supply), DO NOT USE the 'Master' or 'Slave' sockets, but only the 4-pin Booster In/Out socket [marked as OUT]. The missing socket is paralleled, and to loop onto another Booster (4 maximum) you can either add the socket internally - with some soldering and a little cuting of the case - or simply use a Y-cable plug adapter. t to 50 Watts MAXIMUM (ignoring 'power factors etc) Hello Phil, Thank you for detailed information,what confuses me is that the failed component is10725 The OUTPUT of the TRANSFORMER is 'NOTIONALLY' 16V ac ..... that is when taking the MAXIMUM current and Power, ie 50W P=IV 50 = I x 16 => .... I = 3.125 Amps MAXIMUM (0 minimum). The transformers rarely fail, in my experience, but do have the usual thermal cutouts etc. A failed tranformer is a 'lifetime' source of copper enamelled wire 8-) Transformers run warm. This is connected via a Coaxial plug into the ROCO AMPLIFIER 10764** .... which requires EITHER a Roco/Fleischmann MULTIMAUS or a Roco Maus2 to be plugged into its MASTER socket with a 6-pin cable. This is then the MASTER CONTROLLER (whose memory is used between sessions), and IT generates the DCC signal (at low level) which is passed back to the AMPLIFIER (which is is actually IDENTICAL to the 'Booster' they also sell - just using different connections). The AMPLIFIER then boosts the signal to DCCtrack voltage and outputs it via a 2-pin plug. UNLIKE some other 'Master Central Units', the Amplifier DOES NOT REGULATE the track voltage .... Therefore, when used with the 50Hz Mains Transformer, and NO CURRENT is being TAKEN ... the ranfsformer output voltage trises well above 16v ac and the TRACK VOLTAGE can reach 20-21Vdcc. (UK mains voltage CAN reach 250Vac at times) THIS IS WHY some people used to add a couple of diodes / back to back diodes in the low voltage supply to reduce the voltage range ... but a better way is also the method used now by Roco... A Switched Mode Power Supply is Efficient and Regulated ... but a DC output. 18V DC is the correct voltage to use with the Multimaus/.Amplifier. This will give a 16Vdcc track voltage which IS STABLE. (and accurate - as measured by oscilloscopes and RRampmeter and Fluke Meter. Swtiched Mode Power Supplies run COOL when little current is being taken. As with Hornby, Roco NOW supply an 18V dc 1 Amp (or similar) Power supply which is sufficient for the Starter Set ....... Hornby also sell an 'after market' 4A supply ... Roco similarly I think, but... I use (various makes) of 'Computer Laptop SMPS' of 18Vdc 3.5-4A rating. I originally experimented with selectable voltage versions, until I found the optimum voltage (this before roco's SMPS) As I said before, 12V is TOO LOW !! **AN EARLIER TRANSFORMER had 2 press-terminals to connect the output wires to, was rated at 15Vac o/p and connected to the earlier Roco Amplifier which had less output protection. THE ROCO AMPLIFIER can accept EITHER an AC or DC input (and is now labelled as such - since the Multimaus CentralePro) because it has a FULL-WAVE BRIDGE RECTIFIER immediately after the input socket. Note that the input voltage range quoted for ac or dc is not the same !! ... this is because of the (expected) sinusoidal voltage of the ac, and its 1.4x peaks, and the effect of the smooting capacitor. It may have been THIS or another capacitor inside the AMPLIFIER which was being referred to in an earlier posting ??? .... but not in the TRANSFORMER (mistakenly referred to as 'Adapter'). Too low a voltage to the Amplifier may result in excess heat, and incorrect waveform shape (transistors not turning fully on as intended). Programming of Roco Point Motors fails too ! If you have MORE than 1 Amplifier (eg, as the OP now has.. a Z21 and '764 amplifier).. often by having bought more than 1 starter set; AN AMPLIFIER MAY BE USED AS A BOOSTER even WITHOUT OPENING IT ... or by adding the missing socket with some soldering: When used as a Booster (with its own SMPS supply), DO NOT USE the 'Master' or 'Slave' sockets, but only the 4-pin Booster In/Out socket [marked as OUT]. The missing socket is paralleled, and to loop onto another Booster (4 maximum) you can either add the socket internally - with some soldering and a little cuting of the case - or simply use a Y-cable plug adapter. Hello Phil, Thank you for your detailed explanation, the failed component is Roco Transformer 10725,i have since the question about the failure, I have managed to source a Multimaus starter set power supply, what confuses me now is that this is called an adapter with a input of 230V-50Hz, output of 16V-500mA, nearly the same as the adapter I had previously described ,the biggest differences between the two Roco components being the failed unit being more than 3 times the size and weight of the two Roco components.as I only intend to use this system occasionally I will keep with the new setup, although this maybe a little on the under power side Regards John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Can definately say I was referring to power supply when I mentioned a failed resistor or capacitor, basically I cannot remember which exactly it was that had failed in my PSU but once the case has been forced open it was easy to trace with a multimeter where exactly the voltage dropped to 0v and replace the affending component. Since that the PSU has worked faultlessly although I did buy a second Multimaus set as a back up of the PSU, amp and handset. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Hello Phil, Thank you for your detailed explanation, the failed component is Roco Transformer 10725,i have since the question about the failure, I have managed to source a Multimaus starter set power supply, what confuses me now is that this is called an adapter with a input of 230V-50Hz, output of 16V-500mA, nearly the same as the adapter I had previously described ,the biggest differences between the two Roco components being the failed unit being more than 3 times the size and weight of the two Roco components.as I only intend to use this system occasionally I will keep with the new setup, although this maybe a little on the under power side Regards John What you are describing appears to match the values from a ROCO ANALOGUE SET which usually comes/came with a 16V 0.5A supply and a different sized plug which fits into the provided knob-based controller, which, in turn provides 'a variable voltage' dc by pulse-width modulation. It is NOT designed to plug into the Amplifier 10764. The ROCO STARTER SET SMPS I have is Part No. 10850 Primary 230V AC 50-60Hz SEC 18V DC at 36 VA (ie 2 Amp max) Both are Switched Mode (Regulated) Power Supplies, which may also be called colloquially as an 'adapter' as, in this case, it is taking Mains voltage ac and outputing a (regulated) DC supply. Anyone examining the innards of switched mode power supplies - which requires opening the case is advised to take great care, as they usually work on chopping the FULL MAINS VOLTAGE at high frequency and therefore there will be 350V dc or so on high voltage capacitors .... and this charge can remain for some time (possibly hours, if no 'discharge path' has been built in)**. The efficiency comes from the smaller cycles of electrical energy which are transformed into magnetic-field-energy strorage- in the transformer 'former' and then back to (lower voltage, more current) electrical energy onthe output coil: The result is a smaller, lighter, transformer and power supply which is more energy efficient. Feedback (monitoring of the output voltage) is used to control the 'chopping' of the input (high) voltage so that the correct output is maintained under all conditions. There is a 'start-up' circuit used to get the device going - and if this fails, the power supply may continue working for years .... until it is switched off and then on again (the next time the start up circuit is required!). ** On some designs, you can get a 'shock' from the plug pins after removing from the socket due to the charge stoed ont he mains capacitors ... just a diode away from the plug pins! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brittannia Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 What you are describing appears to match the values from a ROCO ANALOGUE SET which usually comes/came with a 16V 0.5A supply and a different sized plug which fits into the provided knob-based controller, which, in turn provides 'a variable voltage' dc by pulse-width modulation. It is NOT designed to plug into the Amplifier 10764. The ROCO STARTER SET SMPS I have is Part No. 10850 Primary 230V AC 50-60Hz SEC 18V DC at 36 VA (ie 2 Amp max) Both are Switched Mode (Regulated) Power Supplies, which may also be called colloquially as an 'adapter' as, in this case, it is taking Mains voltage ac and outputing a (regulated) DC supply. Anyone examining the innards of switched mode power supplies - which requires opening the case is advised to take great care, as they usually work on chopping the FULL MAINS VOLTAGE at high frequency and therefore there will be 350V dc or so on high voltage capacitors .... and this charge can remain for some time (possibly hours, if no 'discharge path' has been built in)**. The efficiency comes from the smaller cycles of electrical energy which are transformed into magnetic-field-energy strorage- in the transformer 'former' and then back to (lower voltage, more current) electrical energy onthe output coil: The result is a smaller, lighter, transformer and power supply which is more energy efficient. Feedback (monitoring of the output voltage) is used to control the 'chopping' of the input (high) voltage so that the correct output is maintained under all conditions. There is a 'start-up' circuit used to get the device going - and if this fails, the power supply may continue working for years .... until it is switched off and then on again (the next time the start up circuit is required!). ** On some designs, you can get a 'shock' from the plug pins after removing from the socket due to the charge stoed ont he mains capacitors ... just a diode away from the plug pins! Phil Not sure what happened to my previous reply,{I have since deleted it as it was split into two] but the unit purchase includes, small hand held controller, power supply [as stated previously] amplifier Digital Zentrale 10751 V1,1 with Roco /Lenz labelling, I have tested the Digital starter set and has basic sound and lights function and address function both being just 1=8 but this is not a problem for what I need the system as locos do respond sufficiently. I do not feel confident about breaking into the failed Roco transformer 10725 as I cannot see any. apparent way of safely fastening the unit together once split other than gluing or binding it together Regards John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Phil: What you have just described is the ORIGNAL ROCOMAUS controller which uses the earlier, slower protocol - NOT EXPRESSNET ... and cannot be plugged in on the same system as a Multimaus or Maus 2 without a protocol adapter. ... It may well be 'compatible' with an LGB (and Arnold...) Maus of 'identical design' - made for them by Lenz, of course ... tight back at the beginnning of what was to become NMRA DCC. The Transformer supplied with these has the push-button connections for just 2 wires??? [and may be labelled 15Vac output??] .. which are already fitted to the 10751 Amplifier. The 10751 Amplifier does not have the same internal protection as the the later 10764 ! However the earlier books by Rutger Freiburg on Electronics for Railways (Swedish and English versions available) do include some modifications and other useful information based on that unit (described as '2R' (2-rail) digital in the book, to differentiate from 3-R (3-rail variants). If you open the transformer - it should not be used again ...(cut the mains lead off and dispose of it) I advocate it only as a lifetime source of enamelled copper wire (2 thicknesses). I don't know what scap value the copper may have otherwise. Its no use on model railway telegraph poles, as it strecthes and kinks 8-) The 10751 and 10764 amplifiers can be opened by removing the plastic plugs in the case sides (with a compass point, or similar) - and the case then slides apart. Since complete Roco Multimaus Controllers with transformer (or without - use an 18V SMPS anyway) and Amplifier 10764 are available taken from starter sets for 60-80+ GBP, I hope you didin't pay more than 10 for the Maus1 ! Don't forget - even with your Z21, the 10764 can be used as a BOOSTER by NOT using its 'Master/Slave' sockets, only the Booster Loop through connections. (But it probably won't support Railcom) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brittannia Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 Hello Phil, Thank you once again for your explanations, I did pay £10, I thought it worth a chance for the limited use I needed, however I have since sourced a new Lenz Transformer which looks very similar to the 10725, I have not examined properly as yet [£45 at my local model shop] if I decide to go with the Multimaus as total back up, however Roco plug needs cutting off though to connect to the Lenz transformer connections , and I presume this could be used as a booster for the z21.Then again I may wait to see if the model shop splits any sets in the near future, he usually does a few each year just a matter of who wants the trainsets only Thanks once again for kindness and helpful advise John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Dread Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I have a Multimaus system which apart from strange rattling noises in the control unit (described elsewhere on this forum and now fixed) works very well. The problem is that I simply don't like the fact that, as the transformer is for the "continental" market, it has the moulded two pins which in the UK must go through an adapter. I am very wary about it becoming damaged and so after reading comments about using a lower voltage transformer, I have purchased the one shown in my photograph on the right. All seems to work just fine although I shall still take the original one out to exhibitions and if all is well after a couple of shows, I shall purchase another 16V 4.5A . DC transformer as shown on the right in the photograph. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Anyone examining the innards of switched mode power supplies - which requires opening the case is advised to take great care, as they usually work on chopping the FULL MAINS VOLTAGE at high frequency and therefore there will be 350V dc or so on high voltage capacitors .... and this charge can remain for some time (possibly hours, if no 'discharge path' has been built in)**. I have experienced 400V DC and it HURTS. Even though only one finger was in contact, so the current path was through the end of the finger, I felt it along the whole of my arm. Additionally, DC is more dangerous than AC. Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeaky Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I use a Lenovo laptop adaptor on my NCE DCC systems, which I have also tested on a Roco Multimaus and it works fine. It outputs 16V DC at 4.5Amp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Dread Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Disagree: AC can make your heart muscle oscillate in mains frequency and destroy the nervous system in the process. That risk is much less on DC. There's a reason that the safe voltages are designated as 24V AC and 48V DC There are several fatality's each year in the UK when they find out too late that sticking their tongues on PP9 battery terminals is not a good idea. It's the current that kills and in this case, only milliamps. AC should throw you off but DC clamps the muscles and holds you on. It was always my intention throughout my career as an electrician to avoid being electrocuted. I've been retired some ten years now and it's still my goal. I only thing so far that has stopped my heart has been the surgeon who performed my heart by-pass operation some six years ago now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ramblin Rich Posted February 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2014 Can anyone comment on the suitability or otherwise of a dell laptop supply for this purpose as the output is 19V DC at 3.5A. Will the slightly higher voltage matter given it is regulated? Otherwise I will look out for a cheap 18V version... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 There was a thread on this forum sometime last year (?) in which someone tried to use a (specific) Dell power supply that used 3 connections - not following the generic advice given, and then complained it apparently didn't work. The input to the Roco Amplifier is a 2-pole connection (plugs readily available on Ebay - search on Roco Plug) - and so a straightforward 2-pole power supply of the correct rating is all that is required. As can be seen from the photograph with the FLEISCHMANN DC POWER ADAPTER earlier in this thread (a 2 Amp 18Vdc 'plug-top' adapter) - the CORRECT DC VOLTAGE TO USE IS 18V DC ... and the current rating can be upto 3.5-4Amps. There are plenty of generic 'Laptop Power Supplies' available economically meeting this specification, and from reliable sources. TRUST do, or did make such an adapter with switchable voltage settings - and I originally used these to test the different voltage options. I now use them at 18V dc > [16Vdcc on track] > circa 14V after the bridge rectifier on a decoder >> getting down towards 12V by the time it gets through the motor driving stage.... [Note that the recommended AC input is/was only 16Vac .... the difference reflects different aspects of the differing sources, and how the circuitry handles them... the ac peak voltage is 1.4x 16] A possible problem area with using the Dell power supply - is that, from experience with one of their laptops - the laptop identifies the power supply - ..and .with the 3-pole connector (I don't have one) this might be a terminal problem. as there may be some start-up communication between them, which will fail if used with the Roco Amplifier! 'RCCB' breakers - which all houses ought to have installed, either as part of the fixed installation, or in a plug/socket adapter, work on detecting an INBALANCE in CURRENT between the 'Live' and 'Neutral' (return) current .... i.e. if the 2 currents are unequal, then it is going elsewhere ... perhaps through YOU! 30mA is a standard rating, 100mA in some circumstances. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A 2-PIN PLUG when the equipment is DOUBLE INSULATED, and was designed for the purpose. There is a great hazard potential the other way: if a 3-pole ('earthed') device is left unearthed by error. A potential problem CAN be experienced if MIXING DEVICES of which some have used 3-pin (earthed) wiring and others have used only 2-wires, if the so-called '0v' of the equipment is later combined..... this is one reason why Optical Isolators are used on many inputs (eg DCC Decoders with spearate power supplies. 'Midi' devices being another example of an optically-isolated range of products) .. to keep the supplies SEPARATE. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I have a Multimaus system which apart from strange rattling noises in the control unit (described elsewhere on this forum and now fixed) works very well. The problem is that I simply don't like the fact that, as the transformer is for the "continental" market, it has the moulded two pins which in the UK must go through an adapter. I am very wary about it becoming damaged Rather than using a razor adaptor a proper plug can be fitted to continental 2 pin plugs, indeed you might find a few household appliances so arranged http://www.applegate.co.uk/b2b-products-services/d4abbd9a2e325b46e043e064a8c02f26.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.