rapidotrains Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 These are welders: They are welding a train together. This is a welded train: See how smooth it is. A portion of our new British locomotive is not smooth. In fact, it is filled with thousands. Upon thousands. Of RIVETS. My brain exploded last Tuesday. This is me right before my brain exploded. Bill has now been hospitalized with acute rivetitis. He is seeing spots before his eyes. I think our next train after this one will be: Gone for therapy, Jason and Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 More clues? Riveting... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 The EPs of the Model Rail Sentinel all came through with 'smooth' bodies. My understanding of the process was that they get to that stage, send the EPs so you can have a play with them, and then engrave all the rivets and panel lines onto the tooling. Do your guys do it all at once? Anyway, I thought the @*&%%$# didn't have any rivets on it? CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Adam1701D Posted February 25, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2014 I hope you are counting the rivets carefully. It is a well-known British pastime. Please let it be APT-E and please let it be N Gauge...(one can dream). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 A very rivetty British locomotive. Got to be LNWR then. Nobody before or since on British railways has done rivets like Crewed works construction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted February 25, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2014 I think our next train after this one will be: Chimney appears a little too slim, the wheels should be 23mm not 22mm and it looks like a generic chassis with the PRR Duplex! And the cab roof is a hard shape to capture accurately . . . . . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapidobill Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Chimney appears a little too slim, the wheels should be 23mm not 22mm and it looks like a generic chassis with the PRR Duplex! And the cab roof is a hard shape to capture accurately . . . . . . We spent HOURS on that cab! Bill Schneider Rapido Trains Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 25, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2014 Are they traditional rivets, or 'lost head' screws, or 'pop' rivets like this one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted February 25, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2014 At least it's only straight lines of rivets........... Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapidotrains Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 At least it's only straight lines of rivets........... Cheers, Mick Keep guessing, mate! -Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave47549 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I think our next train after this one will be: This was the quieter reveal in the OP. Already giving thought to a follow on. It looks like a small UK steam locomotive. Will come equipped for rope shunting. Can carry a colourful pre-group livery? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Sorry to lower the tone of this topic with a serious question but I've actually been wondering about the longevity of rivetting on the railways compared with elsewhere. My recollection of the ships built in the 1950s that I spent time with is that they were almost entirely welded rather than rivetted and though I did have to study the tensile strength of rivets I was taught arc welding. But were steam locos, even those designed post war, still mainly rivetted until the end of steam? Did/does rivetting have any real advantaged over reliable welding (i.e. not mine!!) for steam locos? I know that the standard "OCEM" steel bodied coaches introduced in France from the mid 1920s were at first rivetted as were early all steel coaches in the US and the dome headed rivets were very apparent, though later designs hid them. By the late 1930s though rivets had been replaced by welded constructon which saved considerable weight. On a related question did Britain's railways ever use welded stainless-steel for coaching stock? The shotweld technique for stainless steel was patented by Earl J Ragsdale of the American Budd company in 1932 and licensed by SNCF and some other countries in the 1950s to produce both suburban EMUs and coaches for prestige trains like the "Mistral". The Wagons Lits company also had stainless steel sleepers but I can't recall seeing any of this in Britain and wondered if it was ever used her and if not why not? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2014 Sorry to lower the tone of this topic with a serious question but I've actually been wondering about the longevity of rivetting on the railways compared with elsewhere. My recollection of the ships built in the 1950s that I spent time with is that they were almost entirely welded rather than rivetted and though I did have to study the tensile strength of rivets I was taught arc welding. But were steam locos, even those designed post war, still mainly rivetted until the end of steam? Did/does rivetting have any real advantaged over reliable welding (i.e. not mine!!) for steam locos? I know that the standard "OCEM" steel bodied coaches introduced in France from the mid 1920s were at first rivetted as were early all steel coaches in the US and the dome headed rivets were very apparent, though later designs hid them. By the late 1930s though rivets had been replaced by welded constructon which saved considerable weight. On a related question did Britain's railways ever use welded stainless-steel for coaching stock? The shotweld technique for stainless steel was patented by Earl J Ragsdale of the American Budd company in 1932 and licensed by SNCF and some other countries in the 1950s to produce both suburban EMUs and coaches for prestige trains like the "Mistral". The Wagons Lits company also had stainless steel sleepers but I can't recall seeing any of this in Britain and wondered if it was ever used her and if not why not? I don't know about welded stainless steel but welded aluminium was definitely used by BR for parts of coaching stock and of course the Mk3 coaching stock design is basically an integral welded structure. The Swindon built large diesel hydraulics also had a fully welded and stressed basic structure. But lots of vehicles, even of relatively modern design, have still incorporated set screws or pop rivets for various subassemblies or attachment of them although in many cases they are not full load bearing. But I think some of the 15X unit designs involve quite a lot of rivetting for fixing body panels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoovered Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Enough about rivets !! The important question is , Is it , N or 00 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Sorry to lower the tone of this topic with a serious question but I've actually been wondering about the longevity of rivetting on the railways compared with elsewhere. My recollection of the ships built in the 1950s that I spent time with is that they were almost entirely welded rather than rivetted and though I did have to study the tensile strength of rivets I was taught arc welding. But were steam locos, even those designed post war, still mainly rivetted until the end of steam? Did/does rivetting have any real advantaged over reliable welding (i.e. not mine!!) for steam locos? I know that the standard "OCEM" steel bodied coaches introduced in France from the mid 1920s were at first rivetted as were early all steel coaches in the US and the dome headed rivets were very apparent, though later designs hid them. By the late 1930s though rivets had been replaced by welded constructon which saved considerable weight. On a related question did Britain's railways ever use welded stainless-steel for coaching stock? The shotweld technique for stainless steel was patented by Earl J Ragsdale of the American Budd company in 1932 and licensed by SNCF and some other countries in the 1950s to produce both suburban EMUs and coaches for prestige trains like the "Mistral". The Wagons Lits company also had stainless steel sleepers but I can't recall seeing any of this in Britain and wondered if it was ever used her and if not why not? It may have been thought that rivetting was better-suited to steam locos, because of expansion/contraction issues in areas like smoke-boxes and fire-boxes. It might also have been down to difficulties in getting sufficient skilled welders; even in the 1970s, BREL's Shildon works produced rebodied 21t hoppers with 'Huckbolts', rather than welding, because of difficulties finding welders. I can't think of any stainless-bodied passenger stock in the UK, though welded mild-steel and aluminium have been used. This may be partially because 'coded' welders (those with welding experience beyond mild steel) were relatively scarce. I worked in the chemical industry in the mid-1970s, and those welders we had with 'coding' were treated like royalty, for fear of losing them to other plants, or to the local aircraft and aero-engine industry . Of the dozen or so maintenance staff who could weld, only two were coded. Mike mentions rivetted 15x- DMMUs; I think only the 155/153, and possibly some of the Pacers, used rivets, and that was because the bodies were built by bus manufacturers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 UK practise was very conservative, so when it came to the critical pressure vessel of a steam loco, riveted construction was normal to the end. Gresley and Bulleid began experimenting with welding within the firebox especially associated with the installation of thermic syphons. But generally the plant was in place for riveted construction necessary to maintain the existing boiler stock of 20,000+ so it hung on to the end. Post war, the much trumpeted application of welding in BR's coaches was the seamless butt welding technique that was adopted for the mk1 coach roof. Not with stainless steel though, traditional corroding grades were used... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimbus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 But I think some of the 15X unit designs involve quite a lot of rivetting for fixing body panels. Probably down to their Leyland National bus heritage. Easy garage replacement of pranged bus panels with standard stores items was intended. The Nim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
great central Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hmmm, locos with lots of rivets, the flat pack version................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 On a related question did Britain's railways ever use welded stainless-steel for coaching stock? The shotweld technique for stainless steel was patented by Earl J Ragsdale of the American Budd company in 1932 and licensed by SNCF and some other countries in the 1950s to produce both suburban EMUs and coaches for prestige trains like the "Mistral". The Wagons Lits company also had stainless steel sleepers but I can't recall seeing any of this in Britain and wondered if it was ever used her and if not why not? An imported Budd demonstrator ran in the UK and Ireland http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/40018-silver-princess/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapidotrains Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Passenger coaches in North America built mid-century were either Cor-Ten steel or stainless. The stainless cars that weren't scrapped are all as solid as the day they were built. VIA actually bought a bunch of secondhand US Budd coaches in the late 1980s and rebuilt them in the 1990s as part of their Head End Power rebuilding program. The most reliable cars in VIA's fleet are their HEP2 coaches, most of which date back to 1946-1950. They are also the cheapest to run as their maintenance costs are so low. The trouble with Cor-Ten and other mild steel is that it corrodes in Canada's harsh climate. Aluminum cars, like the VIA LRC and the Hawker-Siddeley/Bombardier GO cars, fare considerably better. But steel cars tend to rust away. Most of the Cor-Ten-built cars from the 1950s that are still in service today have had their side sheets replaced several times over their service life. We're now having serious corrosion problems with the Channel Tunnel Night Stock. I suspect these will only last a few more years in service. The roofs are corroding to such an extent that water is starting to pour down into the walls and even into the interior. They just weren't built to withstand our climate. It wasn't a smart purchase at the time, I'm afraid. VIA and Transport Canada the myriad problems they faced due to the extremes of temperature over here. In the Maritimes, where they are used, the temperature swing from summer to winter is 35 degrees to -30 degrees. -Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted February 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 26, 2014 Did the 'Fell' have a lot of rivets??????????? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2014 We're now having serious corrosion problems with the Channel Tunnel Night Stock. I suspect these will only last a few more years in service. The roofs are corroding to such an extent that water is starting to pour down into the walls and even into the interior. They just weren't built to withstand our climate. It wasn't a smart purchase at the time, I'm afraid. VIA and Transport Canada the myriad problems they faced due to the extremes of temperature over here. In the Maritimes, where they are used, the temperature swing from summer to winter is 35 degrees to -30 degrees. -Jason Must be the cheap Spanish steel and finishing in them Interestingly one was sent to the UIC Climate Testing facility in Vienna and passed with almost flying colours down to -20C (one piece of the plumbing system froze, everything else was o.k.) but I don't know the maximum temperature they were exposed to during the test. Operationally in Europe they would have experienced the same, or greater, higher temperature as in Canada but I they wouldn't have got anywhere near the lower one unless you added in windchill and even then they'd probably not get that low. And while I'm not entirely surprised to hear about corrosion in them I am surprised their electrical outfit has lasted this long so probably a lot of it isn't used over there? edit to correct (non) predictive text induced typo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Must be the cheap Spanish steel and finishing in them Interestingly one was sent to the UIC Climate Testing facility in Vienna and passed with almost flying colours down to -20C (one piece of the plumbing system froze, everything else was o.k.) but I don't know the maximum temperature they were exposed to during the test. Operationally in Europe they would have experienced the same, or greater, higher temperature as in Canada but I they wouldn't have got anywhere near the lower one unless you added in windchill and even then they'd probably not get that low. Also, you can get 10C to -30C swings over the course of a day in the winter which can cause all sorts of problems - not only with rail cars, but with all sorts of rail and non-rail infrastructure. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Can it be co-incidence? The stock is allegedly in a poor state. The main service they are used on (The Ocean) was cut from six days a week to three. CN is closing 70 miles of track over which the Ocean operates. Withdrawal of the service is only a matter of time. The relentless run-down of VIA Rail continues as Canada heads to be the first nation in the western world to have no national passenger train service. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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