Train spotting at Finsbury Square

[Mallard60022]

XLNT.....what you describe as your 'wilderness' is very much more complete than a certain SR layout I am quite familiar with...……..

Mad Duck

[31A]

13 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Steve

 

Ah! GNR Engine Sheds Volume 1, guess where I had put my photocopy of the Walsworth kit instructions?

 

The fun part was remembering how I built the first model when I started the second one. The good thing making it out of plastic card is no burnt finger tips. I am using N gauge track for the yet to be built tubs. I was thinking of using N-gauge wheels for the tubs. On the other hand just disc made from plastic card might do as they will not be operational. Unless you can motorise a 1/76 geezer to push one along. We tend to forget that even with coal hoist there was still a lot of human muscle required to hump the stuff around.

 

The only colour photos I have seen of these coal hoist are ones of the one at Kings Cross Bottom Shed, and then it is always in the background. It appears black, but was that the colour it was painted or it weathered to? Paul has painted his in a green not too dissimilar to that used on station buildings and signal boxes of the LNER and later Eastern Region. 

 

Thanks Clive.  I wouldn't have thought of painting it green!  I was thinking they might have been grey, but as you say they mostly look black - if they didn't start off that colour I expect they soon turned it!

[31A]

More coaling plant soldering.

 

I replaced some of the diagonal bracing girders provided with 1mm x 1mm brass angle from Eileen's, as the ones provided looked too heavy.  The positioning of them is a bit vague in the instructions and not clear from the photo of a finished model that comes with the kit, or the pictures I'd found of real ones, but I got the diagonal bracing that supports the platforms looking fairly OK.  But it was obvious from the pictures that there was a lot more girder work on the real thing, but no matter how I looked at the pictures it just resembled a spider's web.  So I added a couple of diagonals joining the two main uprights in a kind of 'impressionistic' way and hoped for the best.

 

Then I found a decent side on view of the coaler at Frodingham!  In a little book called "British Railways Engine Sheds No. 1" from Irwell Press (p.12).  It seems to be of the same type as the Hitchin one, although the motor housing at the top might be smaller.  It looks like a posed official picture as a loaded tub is half way up, but there are no locos or staff to be seen.  This made the bracing between the main uprights very clear - four horizontal bars, each braced diagonally at each end.

 

One of the benefits of soldering is you can undo what you've done if you change your mind or make a mistake, and I did so.  Then with more of the 1mm x 1mm angle, reproduced what I could see in the photo of the Frodingham machine.  I also turned round the big 'control gear box' between the legs, as I'd realised it wouldn't be accessible with the hoist lowered as I'd originally done it!

 

So here is progress so far, with the hoist carriage and unfinished tub posed in the same position as in the Frodingham photograph:

 

 

The soldering doesn't look quite as neat now, but hopefully will look better under a coat of paint.  Next instalment of finger singeing fun - handrails and ladders!

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Not sure if these might help - it's a German prototype, but might help with the spiders web...

 

libble-de.pdf the PDF has some good assembly photos to help with putting the structure together

 

 

LNER sheds in Camera by John Hooper has a single side view of the Kings Cross coaler, but its not much help

Edited September 22, 2019 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters
inexplicably unable to spell coaler correctly

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Britain from Above image EAW044119 ENGLAND (1952) has a really good over view of the KX loco area.  As usual, the coaler is pretty indistinct.  

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

The RCTS site has a few glimpses

 

 

 

 

 

The BR one looks rather different to the LNER era one... a replacement, or just modified?

[31A]

Thank you for these photos, which are fascinating and very helpful although after a weekend slaving over a hot soldering iron mine is now finished!  Pictures later.

 

I also found a decent black & white picture of the one at Lowestoft, which also seems to have been of the "Hitchin / Frodingham" type.

 

Still looking for a decent colour picture of one though, and realised since Clive pointed out that Paul Goldsmith painted his green that the photo with the Walsworth Models kit's instructions shows that they painted theirs green as well, quite a dark shade.  I found a colour picture of the KX one ("Sixties Spotting Days Around the Eastern Region" p.90) which with my eyes half closed and a bit of wishful thinking nearly convinced me that that one was green underneath the coal dust as well!

 

I presume the Faller kit is plastic & might have been an easier starting point although is it an ash pit hoist (it seems to bring whatever it is up from beneath ground level)?

[Pacific231G]

On 05/08/2019 at 08:07, 31A said:

 

If only that were possible!  I did work out a system in my head whereby groups of levers would be connected by cords so that only one of the group could be pulled of at a time.  But it was fiddly enough threading the cords that actually work the signals, so I suspect that idea will remain in my head.  It wouldn't have been full interlocking, anyway.

Hi Steve

I'm really enjoying seeing your layout and your photos and descriptions are positively inspiring. You really seem to have captured the atmosphere of the steam age City. 

 

I've only just noticed this post and it reminded me of the cord based interlocking that appeared a lot in Henry Greenly's books.

This interlocking uses a combination of cord and bracket interlocking illustrated in a simple example below

 However, though there were plenty of diagrams of such schemes in Greenly's books and articles, I've never actually seen a photo of one so wonder whether it perhaps remained in his head too. He does in any case seem to have envisaged it more as a way of trying out an interlocking scheme in practice before converting it to the hard metal of a proper tappet locking frame (which he also described) . It still seems quite an intriguing idea so If anyone wants to try it Greenly suggested catgut (violin string- never made from cats! ) or picture wire though nowadays you might use nylon cord. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Pacific231G

[31A]

Thank you so much for those kind words, David - glad you've enjoyed reading!  Yes, that is the kind of interlocking I had in mind, although I don't remember reading that by Henry Greenly before!  I didn't think of the connections in front of the frame - I don't think that would be possible in my arrangement.  Actually as an experiment more than anything I did connect two of the signal levers in the "old" frame to each other (levers 28 and 29 in the picture posted on 4th August) so that only one can be pulled at once. They are connected by a (separate) piece of the fishing line that is used to connect the levers to the signals, via a screw eye under the baseboard.  It works well enough, but it would have been just too 'fiddly' to have extended the system to the other levers!

[31A]

I think I got a bit carried away with this coaling stage this weekend and instead of enjoying the Indian summer, I've just about finished it.

 

The handrails were quite difficult.  The kit provides stanchions with holes for the rails etched, which have to be folded up into angle iron.  To my surprise I managed this, and didn't lose any (for long, anyway).  The handrails for the upper platform are tastefully splayed out in almost an "Art Deco" kind of way - perhaps the designer had the diving board at his local Lido in mind?  This made it all the more interesting getting everything square and parallel; I almost managed it!

 

The kit provides etched stiles for the ladders, with holes through which you're expected to solder the rungs.  They didn't survive removal from the fret!  Instead, I used flat etched signal ladder from MSE with 0.45mm wire soldered down each stile and filed flat, which makes a nice straight ladder that's reasonably strong.

 

 

 

 

The kit makes no provision for wheels for the tub whatsoever; I think they expect you to use N gauge or 009 wheels.  I haven't got any of those - narrow gauge modellers might want to look away at this point!

 

I made 'wheels' from sections of brass rod and tube, with rudimentary flanges made by wrapping copper wire round!  These are assisted by flats filed on the underside of the 'wheels' so it stays on the rails and can even be pushed (slid) along.  However I'll really need to make several more so a plastic solution might be easier.  At this point I gave up any pretence of making the hoist work; as I'd soldered the tub rails to the base close enough for the girders (which are supposed to be on the back of the tub) to engage with the hoist, the girders wouldn't let the tub pass the main uprights!  So the girders have come off again.

 

 

I had hoped to get a coat of primer on this afternoon which would hide the messy soldering, but the change of weather has put paid to that for now!

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

The RCTS site has a few glimpses

 

 

 

 

 

The BR one looks rather different to the LNER era one... a replacement, or just modified?

Hi Doc

 

As far as I know it is the same one modified.

[lezz01]

Loving the coaling tower Steve. Excellent work.

Regards Lez.Z. 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

It's a lovely looking coaler, not sure I could cope with that itty bitty soldering.  

 

For future reference, if anyone else is modelling one of these, this is about as good an image as I can get of the KX one.

 

What's the purpose of the leant-to shelter?  Is it to keep the rain off the herberts as they shovel coal by hand out of the wagons and into the tubs?

 

Despite having videoed one in action in China back in 1992, I've never fully understood how they work... hurrah for youtube

 

 

And now I shall stop derailing the thread!  Back to Finsbury Square!

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[31A]

4 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

 

What's the purpose of the leant-to shelter?  Is it to keep the rain off the herberts as they shovel coal by hand out of the wagons and into the tubs?

 

 

Yes, exactly - to keep the coal men dry.  Every depot that had such a hoist seems to have had a makeshift shelter nearby for that purpose.  The standard gauge coal wagon siding and the narrow gauge tub way both went underneath it and I presume the men just stood on the big wagons and threw the coal into the little ones, I've not been able to see that there was any kind of platform inside the shed.

 

Thank you for the photos, which are very interesting!  I'd really like to see one in colour (not necessarily the KX one) showing what colour they were painted before they turned black!

[31A]

And now available in grey primer!  All that horrible solder has disappeared.  In the absence of other information as to colour, I'm thinking of just weathering it from this colour to near-black.  The tub really needs axle boxes of some kind, squares of Plastikard will do - I forgot about that before I painted it.  I need to make some more tubs, anyway.

 

 

[Dungrange]

On 03/03/2014 at 21:31, 31A said:

 

Ah thank you, so that's what goes on behind the frosted windows of this office then!

 

 

 

 

I think the real one might have had an address in Artillery Lane?

 

What kit was used for that building?  It has a fairly modular look to it.

[Dungrange]

55 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

What kit was used for that building?  It has a fairly modular look to it.

 

I think I've found it - it looks like this started life as a DPM model of a hotel - https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/woodland-scenics-m-t-arms-hotel-dpm11900/

[31A]

8 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

I think I've found it - it looks like this started life as a DPM model of a hotel - https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/woodland-scenics-m-t-arms-hotel-dpm11900/

 

Yes, that's correct.  It isn't modular, actually, but by making it as a low relief building I was able to make a longer facade by using parts of the side walls to lengthen the front.

[31A]

Some progress in the taming of the "wilderness".  Major engineering work Crude carpentry has carved out a turntable well against the road bridge, and the Peco turntable is beginning to take shape.  The loco stabling roads have been set out in Peco bull head track, but not fixed down yet.  This made the running lines behind, in flat bottom Code 75, look ridiculous so those lines have been relaid in b/h, apart from the pointwork.  Luckily they hadn't been ballasted.

 

 

The new sidings haven't been wired up at all yet, I need to get some switches first, but the yard is in limited use already by means of finger pushing.  I was interested to see what effect the new facility would have on the loco workings.  The timetable spreadsheet had to be altered quite drastically, and links inserted to create a new page showing locos on and off shed during the day.  The effect is that locos will take longer to progress through the links.  Incoming engines would previously have returned light engine to the fiddle yard, to be replaced by another.  Now they will go on shed to be coaled, turned and watered, and then later go off shed to work a later train back to where they came from, in other words the fiddle yard to be replaced by another for the next day's session.  The picture below shows the start of day position in the loco yard, with the engines which have been on shed overnight prepped and ready to go off shed to work their trains.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

29 minutes ago, 31A said:

The effect is that locos will take longer to progress through the links.  Incoming engines would previously have returned light engine to the fiddle yard, to be replaced by another.  Now they will go on shed to be coaled, turned and watered, and then later go off shed to work a later train back to where they came from, in other words the fiddle yard to be replaced by another for the next day's session.  

 

Excellent, more play value realistic operation!

[All thumbs]

The stabling roads and positions of turntable, coal hoist and engine men's bothy all appear to be a mirror image of KX Bottom Loco. Have you used commercial structures for the bothy and if so, which?

[31A]

8 hours ago, All thumbs said:

The stabling roads and positions of turntable, coal hoist and engine men's bothy all appear to be a mirror image of KX Bottom Loco. Have you used commercial structures for the bothy and if so, which?

 

Hi, thanks for asking!  Yes, well spotted - the engine men's bothy is similar to the one at KX although smaller; I based the model on it but just working from photos - I didn't have a drawing of it.  I made it from card and brick paper for a previous layout:

 

 

The doorsteps shouldn't be that high, it was sunk into the ground previously.  I just put it on this layout as a place holder and to see what the general scene would look like.  I may replace it with something more suitable, from Plastikard.

 

It hadn't really occurred to me but you're right, the layout is pretty much a mirror image of that at KX - coincidental really, although space is restricted in both cases.  The coal wagon road really needs to be quite long so that wagons can be moved along it during unloading, but I didn't want the coaling plant to be at the front of the layout where it would be vulnerable.  The extreme left hand siding at the front of the baseboard ,just visible, may well be a place to put a few oil tankers as a makeshift diesel loco fuelling point.

[Mallard60022]

Excellent.....play value indeed, especially for 'guests'!

P

[31A]

I've spent the last few weeks working out how to motorise the turntable.  To be honest, I was slightly underwhelmed by the new Peco turntable motor; as it's turned out not to have an indexing feature and relies on lining the rails up by eye, I thought it was quite a lot of money for what it was.  I'd used Meccano to drive a Peco turntable on a previous layout (albeit that also relied on lining up the rails by eye) and having a box full of it for about the last 50 years I thought I'd see what could be done with it.

 

One thing that has often struck me about model turntables is that the motion can be jerky in a way that isn't possible when 100 tons of loco is being turned.  Also if possible I wanted the table to stop automatically when in line with the rails feeing it.  I thought flywheels would be a way to eliminate jerky motion and indeed they were, but they imparted so much inertia that it was impossible to stop the table in line with the rails!  The real one at the NRM seems to have the same problem, when it is being demonstrated.  So I've come up with a mechanism that disengages the drive at the same time as the current is cut, and the lock drops in.  That way, the flywheels can carry on rotating until their energy is dissipated, whilst no longer turning the table.

 

Here are a few pictures of it.  The description may sound like an article from "Meccano Magazine", as I will try and use part descriptions from the catalogue, although "Microswitch" wasn't in the Meccano vocabulary, and "jam jar lid" didn't feature often either.

 

The first picture shows the "control" side.  The motor, which is from an old tape recorder, drives Shaft A.  The blue Pulley is one of the flywheels, and behind it is a 1/2" Pinion which engages with a 1 1/2" Gear Wheel on Shaft B, which also carries a Worm.  Shaft C is the "Control Rod", with the Control Lever on the end - on the layout this is much longer and comes out to the front of the baseboard.  Among other things, turning this operates the micro switch which energises the motor.   On the finished version, the turntable itself is attached to the top of Shaft D.  As can be seen, at the bottom of this shaft is a 3 1/2" Gear Wheel, with a jam jar lid attached to it.

 

The ends of the green girders at the top are attached to wooden blocks under the baseboard, either side of the Peco turntable well.

 

 

The next picture shows the "drive" side.  The motor drives by belt a 1" Pulley, which is behind the other flywheel.  Originally I used bigger pulleys as flywheels, but they caused a lot of vibration - they were probably no longer true!  In this picture you can see the "Follower" (E) and the Tension Spring (F) which causes the Control Rod to drop when the Follower reaches a notch in the side of the jam jar lid, which corresponds with the position of the rails on the baseboard.  When this picture was taken, I was just testing that the table could be made to stop accurately enough after turning 180 degrees; to do this there are two notches in the side of the jam jar lid, which obviously must be exactly opposite each other.  On the layout, the table will serve two roads, and there are now additional notches to cater for this.

 

 

 

Next is a close up of the jam jar lid and Follower.  The Follower rises and falls in the slot made from a 3" Formed Slotted Strip - as supplied these are curved, but this one has been straightened and then bent though 90 degrees so that the slot is vertical.  This eliminates any side play in the follower, when it has dropped into the notch in the jam jar lid, and holds the table tightly in place.  The follower is carried in a 1 1/2" Double Angle Strip, which is attached to a 1 3/8" Bushed Wheel on the end of the Locking Rod.

 

 

The last picture shows how it works!  The Control Rod carries a Coupling (G) which holds a Threaded Pin, the other end of which engages in one hole of a Fork Piece on the Locking Rod.  Moving the Control Lever clockwise causes the Fork Piece to lift the Locking Rod.  This lifts the Follower (I) out of the notch in the jam jar lid and activates the microswitch which starts the motor.  Crucially, it also lifts the 1 1/2" Gear (H) as this is on a Rod with Keyway, meaning it can slide up and down whilst still turning the rod.  Lifting this gear engages it with the Worm on Shaft B and causes the Final Drive Shaft D to rotate.  Once the table has started rotating, the operator can let go of the Control Lever because the Follower runs on the rim of the jam jar lid, holding the Locking Rod up which keeps Gear H in mesh and the microswitch closed, until it reaches the next notch in the jar lid, when it drops, cutting the power, dropping Gear H out of mesh, and locking the table in place.

 

 

Quite a lot of experimentation was necessary to get this all to work, and several elements needed careful adjustment but it has now been installed and tested on the layout, and so far (touch wood) is working quite reliably.

 

For the moment it is temporarily fed directly from a 6v DC supply, but when I make the control panel for the Loco Yard I will pass the motor feed through the track section feed switch for the turntable rails so that a loco can't be driven whilst the turntable is rotating, and vice versa.  At the moment it only rotates anticlockwise but I will also incorporate centre off DPDT switch to reverse the polarity of the turntable feed so that it can rotate in either direction, with the centre being an "Emergency Stop" switch; something which is sadly lacking at the moment!