Operation of Scotrail DBSO-sets away from their regular routes

[ChrisH-UK]

Shortly before the 158s finally made there appearance there were fewer diagrammed duties for the 47/7s and the remaining push-pull sets so in theory this would create some slack for them to appear elsewhere. I am using modellers license to have a relief/replacement work south to Carlisle using a Mk3 set but my thoughts are that it would be conventionally hauled both ways as either the drivers on the line from Carstairs south would not be cleared on the DBSO or the type itself would not be cleared for it's regular type of operation.

Does this seem logical to anyone else?

 

Thanks

Chris H

[dvdlcs]

Hello.

 

The ScotRail DBSOs would ordinarily have been found on the Edinburgh-Glasgow-Aberdeen-Inverness circuits. Edinburgh-Glasgow was the principal route but trains from either end to the northern cities could be push-pulled as well, ironically enough given the greater distances more likely to use the Mk2 coaches rather than the Mk3 sets.

 

Once the 158s came into use on the E-G workings, presumably any surplus sets would be used on the Aberdeen or Inverness trains. I seem to recall that the DBSOs started to move to Norwich pretty quickly for the Anglian workings, so how many 'spare' DBSOs would be around and for how long, I don't know. From memory the Mk3 coaches went into the general WCML pool, although I stand to be corrected on that.

 

What you said in the original question is logical, although as you say modellers license can be applied.

 

Hope this helps,

 

 

David.

[ChrisH-UK]

There is a photo (B&W I believe) in a copy of RAIL that I can't find of 47711 at Princes Gardens with a Mk3 set. It was attributed to mid 1990 but it could have been taken any day in the late 80s... except I remember the Scotrail branding was missing from the loco which means it would have been taken after its overhaul in May 1990.

 

Also there was a report of DBSOs still being at Polmadie in the last week of May so there is a window.

[mjkerr]

Shortly before the 158s finally made there appearance there were fewer diagrammed duties for the 47/7s and the remaining push-pull sets so in theory this would create some slack for them to appear elsewhere. I am using modellers license to have a relief/replacement work south to Carlisle using a Mk3 set but my thoughts are that it would be conventionally hauled both ways as either the drivers on the line from Carstairs south would not be cleared on the DBSO or the type itself would not be cleared for it's regular type of operation.

Does this seem logical to anyone else?

Most of the first part has been answered above

The DBSO were transferred away in five batches from April to October 1990

The first batch had to be transferred prior to the timetable change in order complete their overhauls in readiness for use on Anglia services, which resulted in Class 156 units operating many services for a few months over the summer of 1990

 

When the DBSO were first new they were only used between Glasgow and Edinburgh

Their only other use was on charters / specials to Oban and a Friday Only Edinburgh - Inverness service

With the next batch of DBSO this resulted in the Glasgow - Aberdeen services also being included

The final DBSO resulted in the Edinburgh - Aberdeen services also being included

 

As for a DBSO being used on a WCML service, that would have been almost impossible

By this time sectorisation was in place

Equally, even though the DBSO was Polmadie based, almost none of the WCML drivers would have been passed on DBSO

Finally, I can't even remember a DBSO appearing at Carstairs or Carlisle

However, there were plenty of Class 47/7 locos used between Edinburgh and Carstairs, prior to October 1989 (when their cascade to Western commenced)

[woodenhead]

The beauty of modellers licence is that almost anything is sensible.

 

I am building a b/g set for my layout which will be a fictitious location but I don't have any issue with thinking that the concept of push pull services wouldn't have been extended in Scotland if it hadn't been for Sprinters.

 

Indeed it is exactly what happened on the Anglia services and ECML and WCML.

[ChrisH-UK]

As for a DBSO being used on a WCML service, that would have been almost impossible

By this time sectorisation was in place

Equally, even though the DBSO was Polmadie based, almost none of the WCML drivers would have been passed on DBSO

Finally, I can't even remember a DBSO appearing at Carstairs or Carlisle

However, there were plenty of Class 47/7 locos used between Edinburgh and Carstairs, prior to October 1989 (when their cascade to Western commenced)

 

So if they had borrowed a push-pull set - which they wouldn't have

and taken it south of Carstairs - which they didn't

the only way it would have been operated would be as a conventional hauled set.

 

There were 47/7s working south in 1990, but for more legitimate reasons (after overhaul, the occasional charter and of course on their way to Old Oak)

[edin_bry2x]

even though the DBSO was Polmadie based

I was under the impression that the DBSOs were all based at Craigentinny and any sets that stabled overnight in Glasgow were to be found at Cowlairs Carriage Sidings just along from Eastfield TMD.

 

Bry

[retbsignalman]

When these sets came to Inverness, they were hauled conventionally as Inverness drivers weren't passed to drive them from the DBSO. Aberdeen and Perth men were though, so other than when these crews worked them we had to shunt release the loco. This would apply at any other location where crews were unfamiliar with the DBSOs too! 

 

HTH,

 

Graeme

[mjkerr]

I was under the impression that the DBSOs were all based at Craigentinny and any sets that stabled overnight in Glasgow were to be found at Cowlairs Carriage Sidings just along from Eastfield TMD.

Agreed, the DBSO spent the majority of their life based at Craigentinny (EC), but at sectorisation they were sub-allocated to Polmadie (PC)

This was due to Craigentinny taking an increased responsible for all HST after the full IC225 introduction

When this happened it was quite common to see a lone DBSO at Polmadie, although it was only a short period of about 18 months

[forest2807]

When these sets came to Inverness, they were hauled conventionally as Inverness drivers weren't passed to drive them from the DBSO. Aberdeen and Perth men were though, so other than when these crews worked them we had to shunt release the loco. This would apply at any other location where crews were unfamiliar with the DBSOs too! 

 

HTH,

 

Graeme

I remember seeing a DBSO as the front coach of a conventionally hauled south bound train from Inverness in the late 80's, directly behind a 47. It had obviously travelled north as the rearmost coach, and as Graeme said the train would have been shunted out of the platform to release the loco on the buffers (by 08621, 717 or 754). It was probably a Saturday morning as my parents would deposit me on the platform for a spotting session while they went shopping. Just wanted to back up Graeme's point really.

[retbsignalman]

Hi!

 

There was Fridays only train in the mid 80s from either Edinburgh or Glasgow (can't remember which now!) named 'The Jacobite' to Inverness, which IIRC returned south the same night. Also, in 1983/4 there was a Sundays only push/pull working from Glasgow via Aberdeen to Inverness, which was worked by any ETH 47 available too.

 

On a slightly different note, at Inverness 08717 was the station pilot and 08621, being air braked only was the Millburn Yard pilot and 08754 was the 'spare'.

 

HTH,

 

Graeme  

[mjkerr]

Between Edinburgh and Inverness, it was very rare for the service to use a 47/7 but instead a 47/4
I was under the impression the service only operated on a Friday, but if it did indeed return early southbound on Saturday then it would probably have a different loco
It does seem an unusual waste of a DBSO but presumably to increase seating capacity rather than as a push-pull set
However, there are photos of this set in operation with a 47/7, but none with the DBSO leading

Due to these restrictions this only occured for one year

[mjkerr]

Also, in 1983/4 there was a Sundays only push/pull working from Glasgow via Aberdeen to Inverness, which was worked by any ETH 47 available too.

This Sunday Only service was operated as two separate trains, sometimes swapping locos on arrival in Aberdeen

However, at this time the Aberdeen sets were still Aberdeen based, hence why this occured

[GordonC]

Agreed, the DBSO spent the majority of their life based at Craigentinny (EC), but at sectorisation they were sub-allocated to Polmadie (PC)

This was due to Craigentinny taking an increased responsible for all HST after the full IC225 introduction

When this happened it was quite common to see a lone DBSO at Polmadie, although it was only a short period of about 18 months

 

So can I ask, how did they get to Polmadie for maintenance? was day to day maintenance done away from Polmadie (for sets staying overnight in Glasgow I mean) and only exams or more major work done at the depot? I hadn't ever seen a push-pull set there or photos of that, but its quite possible they had been there and I'd just missed them.

[mjkerr]

So can I ask, how did they get to Polmadie for maintenance? was day to day maintenance done away from Polmadie (for sets staying overnight in Glasgow I mean) and only exams or more major work done at the depot? I hadn't ever seen a push-pull set there or photos of that, but its quite possible they had been there and I'd just missed them.

The coaches were moved as and when required between Craigentinny (as Cowlairs had closed by this point) and Polmadie

Only the selected coaches would be moved, not the entire set

 

Overnight the sets were maintained as previous; Edinburgh Waverley, Glasgow Queen Street, Aberdeen, Perth, and Inverness

However, this had been vastly simplified as the sets could no longer visit Craigentinny or Cowlairs, and the coaches were expected to be transferred away in the short-term

Most of the sets by this point spent overnight in the stations; internal clean and water refill only

In Glasgow the locos would be removed and refuelled

In Aberdeen the entire set would be washed, the loco refuelled

In Inverness the entire set would be washed (although from memory the washer was out of use for some time)

On Saturday nights in Aberdeen the locos (after the wash and refuel) would be detached and maintained, sometimes not always ready on the Sunday morning!

 

All the previous Craigentinny based non-airconditioned stock which was to remain on ScotRail duties, was transferred to Inverness

This allowed Craigentinny to continue routine maintenance on the remaining stock during the day, as by this point it was predominantly an Inter City depot

One set each day (Tuesday to Friday) was rostered to arrive from Aberdeen - Edinburgh service, and then return to Edinburgh - Aberdeen

This maintenance cycle wasn't available on a Monday as this was used to swap the Aberdeen sleepers

As the push-pull sets were taken out the number of sets placed on this maintenance cycle was reduced and eventually all the remaining sets were Inverness based

At this point all the remaining Eastfield Class 47 locos were either transferred away or to Inverness

[Falkirk_Craig]

Sorry, I may have missed a bit. What happened to the sets there were based overnight in Edinburgh? Did the locos always remain with the set? What happened if the loco was due a depot examination?

[ThaneofFife]

never knew the sets ever visited Inverness.  anybody got any photos to share  ?

['CHARD]

Sorry, I may have missed a bit. What happened to the sets there were based overnight in Edinburgh? Did the locos always remain with the set? What happened if the loco was due a depot examination?

 

Depending on the level of exam (for instance an S or A/ fuel-point exam could usually be accommodated at a carriage servicing location), the loco would be detached and return to HA (or ED) and either returned following completion of the exam to rejoin the set, or swapped (depending on planned exam duration, and crucially, what level of AAW [additional arising work] was found) with a spare loco.

[mjkerr]

Sorry, I may have missed a bit. What happened to the sets there were based overnight in Edinburgh? Did the locos always remain with the set? What happened if the loco was due a depot examination?

Edinburgh -

Prior to sprinterisation the rake would make its way to Craigentinny (if the coaches were due maintenance, otherwise Haymarket), loco refuel (if no maintenance), the loco then detached on return to Edinburgh, and made its way to Haymarket

 

At sprinterisation this ended, only the rake made its way to Craigentinny, and loco refuel if required

If the loco was due C maintenance (or above) then it would be rostered on to an Aberdeen - Glasgow diagram, on arrival in Glasgow it would be swapped out (as there was typically nearly two hours for the Aberdeen set)

All other A or B maintenance was performed at Aberdeen or Glasgow overnight, with C maintenance also performed at Aberdeen on Saturday nights (as most Class 47/7 were overdue)

 

never knew the sets ever visited Inverness.  anybody got any photos to share  ?

Friday only, Edinburgh - Inverness / Inverness - Edinburgh