RandyWales Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Hi again... Some members will be aware that I have been a keen participant in the Cheaper and Better DCC Sound thread. Driven predominantly by my personal opinion regarding the excessive cost of 7mm Sound Decoders, I was convinced I could save a huge amount of money by coming up with an alternative. That thread has been quiet for a couple of months, but still seems to be generating interest, judging by the rising number of hits..... I concede that the thread would appear to have stalled, but I think that was because conflicts were starting to surface. Offline, however, I have continued to strive towards this personal goal, ably assisted by Clickerty Clack, who is a very genuine and knowledgable guy when it comes to sound matters. I have been looking at several methods, whilst trying to develop the link between sound production and motion control of the locomotives. I made great strides using the free (and very professional) PureData music production software program which can share USB gamepad-driven control methods with the free JMRI DCC system. Puredata has a big brother called MaxMsp which has much more functionality, but the licence is quite expensive. However, I developed a workable system during the four week free trial period. It is an offboard (pc-based) system, sending sounds to the loco via Bluetooth Audio Streaming. That is more of a longterm project, and the free version is certainly cheap in comparison with Sound Chips. The other major benefit is that the sound quality is far superior to that available on current Sound Chips. As part of my 'education', I tried to program a LokSound project, but I was really surprised and disappointed to find that the compilation process reduces the sound quality by around a third - necessary to pack enough sound samples onto a chip. At this time, however, I would like to share with members a method of Layout Sound production that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere before. It's very early days yet, but this an exciting new angle, so watch this space! Above all....it's more or less 'as cheap as chips' (unlike Sound Chips!)... I'll post a video in the next few days.... Randall Edited September 27, 2016 by RandyWales 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I'll be watching with interest. HiFi reproduction is my 'expensive' hobby, and when I want some railway sounds I just roughly integrate train movements with old track side recordings reproduced on a decent stereo soundstage. The pathetic output of the teeny tweeter in a loco cannot compete with even a modest system flat down to 25Hz: it's the difference between dying of thirst, and having a fully stocked bar quite frankly. My Dad and I 'discovered' this when we had the layout on the lounge floor while my Mum was in the maternity unit bringing my sister into the world. The new stereo set up was used to play a Transacord, and your mind is fooled: provided there is rough coherence between the train movement and the recording's progression, your brain simply locks them together. This is what we do in the real world: vision is direct path, all but the most immediately adjacent sound sources reach us by multipath: we are absolutely conditioned to match imperfectly localised sound to the 'correct' visual source. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 Here you go then.....hope you like it..... The sounds of the train are panned from left to right at each step, although it's hard to tell in a Youtube video. Take it from me....it sounds really good. The speakers are cheapo's from a bargain shop, so they don't really do it justice. I'll tell all later.... Randall 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matador Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Sorry cannot here anything! David a Brit in the USA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevpeo Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Yep, no sound here too! Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 You may need to turn your volume up - I have sound without problem, but the volume is right up! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted March 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 28, 2014 There's a sound control embedded into you tube (bottom left) you need to turn that up first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Watching this with interest Randall (long time no see mate)Yes 7mm sound chips are expensive - 4mm sound chips are pricey enough!I recall seeing Worcester Road a few years backSteve was considering installing sound into his Gauge 1 hydraulic fleetBut it was incredibly expensive, so he turned to an alternative method;He recorded an old LP of Diesel Hydraulic sounds onto his PCTransferred them to CD, and played them alongside his layout...Worcester Rd is the inside of a depot, for those who haven't seen itSo when the loco enters, he simply turns the sound up...Turning it down as a loco leavesOf course, this only works when a loco is just idlingbut I was wondering whether, if you have some of those old LP recordsif they could be digitised, and added to a sound program like the one you're using here Randall?Cheers Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 ....if they could be digitised, and added to a sound program like the one you're using here.... Hi Marc.... I'm still wondering what direction this could be heading in... For example, the Steam Train was just a four second sample... Many options there then.... I think it may also be suitable for use with full length soundtrack samples - say for a Terminus to Fiddleyard. I'm still experimenting... It's obviously not going to suit every application on every layout, but it could fill a big void. It could also be used to compliment DCC soundchips, although the difference in sound quality might be too apparent. I'll exlain how it all works when I get my head around the options. Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Hi again.... Here's another one.... With refinement, I think it'll sound brill on my layout... I'll be streaming the sounds via Bluetooth to onboard speakers. Ideal for dirt cheap 7mm sound? Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Hi again... Making a start then.... The application genre is called a 'Cart Machine' (with it's history in Radio Production apparently).... and was originally hardware-based, where the sounds were held on CART-ridges. 'Carts' are intended for use by DJ's, Radio and Podcast producers and Stadium 'goal celebration' soundbites amongst other things. Available in many guises on Tablet and Smartphone, there are also versions available on Windows, Mac, (probably Linux too) etc etc... I'll be discussing some of the apps available on the iPad, (plus iPod and iPhone), and as far as I'm aware, there are many equivalents for Andriod devices. Basically, the fact that these apps are available on TouchScreen devices such as tablets and phones, makes this a compact and convenient means of triggering sounds for the layout. The cost can vary, but most apps are priced at few £pounds. I know people are going to say the hardware (tablet or phone) is a big expense to consider. That's fair enough, but I've never used a soundchip to book a holiday. Down to the nitty-gritty.... The iPad app with the greatest scope was SoundByte by BlackCat Systems (£1.99) - that's the one I used in the videos...not the prettiest to look at, but it had capabilities that the others did not. By the way...I'm not proud of the standard of my video demonstrations...they were cobbled together in very short order....they are poor and they don't do justice to this method. Sound samples are assigned to buttons, and the buttons can be assigned different functions, such as looping. Most Sound Boards (as they are also known), are polyphonic (can play several sounds simultaneously) With SoundByte, sounds can also be panned. With stereo speakers, you can pan the sound of an idle loco standing in a siding to the left, with another different loco standing to the right. You can then pan a train travelling through the scene. And if you assign a button to the sound of your signal cabin's bells, that can be panned wherever in between. Each sample button has it's own volume control. Sounds can also be faded over time, so the train can still be heard in the distance even though it's stopped in the fiddleyard. As demonstrated in the Steam Video, you can trigger the sounds of the carriages or wagons squealing through your pointwork, or the clickclack over the railjoints. As well as using offboard speakers for ambient sounds, I will also be using Bluetooth Audio Streaming direct from my iPad to the onboard speakers for my 7mm fleet. The sound quality alone leaves chips in the dust. I'll close for now with a final thought... It will be obvious there is no connection between Sound and Motion. You therefore have to drive the train to match the sounds that you hear. That may not seem attractive and a massive pitfall to many, but that's not how it feels... Besides, many chip programmers have you do exactly the same by pressing function buttons. You have a tremendous amount of control over the sounds produced, and on a small layout, which may not justify expenditure on soundchips, this is a worthy option. Randall... Edited March 31, 2014 by RandyWales 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) I like where this is going. I've often thought that for sound to be convincing it needs to be far more than the individual loco. You really need the whole soundscape of the railway scene you're depicting including wagon wheels squealing, the ringing and rumbling of wagons being shunted, station announcements, doors slamming, the clackety clack of coaches as they pass following the loco and all of this with the appropriate perspective for the position the viewer is assumed to be. Just having sound from the locos is maybe a bit analogous to the "smoke units" where whisps of white vapour emerge from the chimney of a steam loco but nothing emerges from all the other places where steam locos release clouds and whisps of water vapour. Will we need a sound supervisor as well as a layout operator at exhibitions or do you just create all the sounds for an operating session and then run the trains in sync with the "music" ? Edited March 31, 2014 by Pacific231G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Another option I've been working on for a while - run a train simulator on the computer, with the layout set up as a route and feed the simulator's speed to the layout as the train speed. The system I've been setting up is DC, so a lot of the development going in has been on building a computerised DC controller, but no reason why it shouldn't be done as DCC using an existing interface to the track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted April 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2014 Hello Randall, Interesting thread. I think for N gauge (my area of interest) this has definite applications. So assuming I am interested in this and I install the cart app where do I get the sounds from? Can I just harvest suitable ones from, say, You Tube? Incidentally, your mention of Carts reminds me of my early says in local radio. The carts were plastic boxes about the size of a CD Case but twice as thick, and contained a loop of tape. We had them of 1'00, 3'00 and 7'00 duration IIRC and news items - voiced reports, clips of sound or jingles - were loaded on to them before the bulletin. They were played out of Sonifex branded cart machines that were in a stack, and the recordings had an auto recue signal so that once the clip was played out, if you pressed the "recue" button it would fast-forward to the beginning again, making it ready for the next hour. As a radio trainee I was taught that "not re-cuing your carts" was a cardinal sin as it would leave the newsreader next hour with apparently empty carts and dead air! Cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 I've often thought that for sound to be convincing it needs to be far more than the individual loco. You really need the whole soundscape of the railway scene you're depicting including wagon wheels squealing, the ringing and rumbling of wagons being shunted, station announcements, doors slamming, the clackety clack of coaches as they pass following the loco and all of this with the appropriate perspective for the position the viewer is assumed to be. Will we need a sound supervisor as well as a layout operator at exhibitions or do you just create all the sounds for an operating session and then run the trains in sync with the "music" ? Hi David.... I wholeheartedly agree with your opening paragraph... And both your ideas 'sound' good to me.... As well as an operator controlling the trains, a Fireman/Secondman could control the sound....maybe it would give Club Members more collaborative tasks at exhibitions / club nights.... Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Hello Randall, Interesting thread. I think for N gauge (my area of interest) this has definite applications. So assuming I am interested in this and I install the cart app where do I get the sounds from? Can I just harvest suitable ones from, say, You Tube? Hi Ben.... Maybe this could be THE method for triggering sounds for 2mm scale... Most of these apps use the .wav file format (many other formats too). There are suitable sounds out on the web under the Creative Commons licence which grants you the right to use them for non-commercial use. You may need to slice'n'dice them using a program like Audacity (open source) to provide a suitable bank of sounds. Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Another option I've been working on for a while - run a train simulator on the computer, with the layout set up as a route and feed the simulator's speed to the layout as the train speed. The system I've been setting up is DC, so a lot of the development going in has been on building a computerised DC controller, but no reason why it shouldn't be done as DCC using an existing interface to the track. An interesting option....and you mention 'development'....maybe you could update on progress? Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Hi again... Here is a quick run down on the SoundByte Cart iPad app....others Cart apps are very similar in operation. Press any button on the active Cart for about a second, and the Settings screen (below) is displayed. You select the Sound file to be associated with the button from your iPad Sounds Library. The Help file explains in detail what the relevant setting does... Briefly... Each button has a volume control that is set here...relative to the Master volume setting. Cart Pan sets the position in the sound field where this sound should be located. Cart Rate controls playback rate (ie. faster or slower) Probably not suitable for our purposes. Button colour and Text size are self evident. Cut In time determines where the Start Point for playback in the associated sample is located (if required). Probably the most important setting is Looping Count... (in seconds). A high number in this setting will also ensure that a Looped sound is not Faded when other buttons are pressed. Fade time is important....sample crossover is smoother if this is used properly. It also controls the Master fade control....used in association with the Fade In Playback and Fade Out Playback settings. Using these settings, the sounds get louder and softer as the train enters or leaves the layout. The other important button is Touch Fades Other Carts....it fades the sound of the PRECEDING button, and triggers THIS button's playback....makes for smoother transitions. Not much more really.....experiment for yourselves... Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Hi, Today I bought a blue-tooth speaker from Asda - cost me £10.00. Taking it apart is easy. The speaker is about 35mm diameter, the battery 3.5V/500mA, the circular pcb is probably 45mm diameter - I put it together again, without writing down the dimensions. It is not stereo, but is small enough to fit in 7mm loco. Not being much of a user of blue-tooth, I found it a bit of a faff getting the sound drivers for it, and setting it up to play sound from a w7 pc, but now working fine. If I get interested in this, I will most likely develop my own software, I want the sound to be related to what the loco is doing, without having to fiddle with a separate sound controller. I have a problem with the concept of scale in sound, in particular with steam locos. A 7mm scale exhaust does not make the same sound as a full size one, and I haven't scale ears, the volume also needs adjusting to suit the distance I am from the loco. Too much to think about Best wishes, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 An interesting option....and you mention 'development'....maybe you could update on progress? Randall Well, the progress so far is that I've managed to write a piece of software to read the speed and direction display from Microsoft Train Simulator (in time I will probably try it with other sims,but I have my layout and most of my stock in MSTS!), and by using some of the MERG CBUS kits, converted it to eight on/off outputs (7 for speed and one for direction), thence to a 0-3V variable voltage. At the moment I'm in the middle of amplifying that and adding a feedback component. When that's done, there will need to be some calibration of the software to suit the performance characteristics of the different locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 Well, the progress so far is that I've managed to write a piece of software to read the speed and direction display from Microsoft Train Simulator (in time I will probably try it with other sims,but I have my layout and most of my stock in MSTS!), and by using some of the MERG CBUS kits, converted it to eight on/off outputs (7 for speed and one for direction), thence to a 0-3V variable voltage. At the moment I'm in the middle of amplifying that and adding a feedback component. When that's done, there will need to be some calibration of the software to suit the performance characteristics of the different locos. Seems as if this is a rather unique take on the subject of interfacing sound and motion control. I've (seen and) heard some of the more recent MSTS offerings (very impressed indeed), so when you do achieve your objective, please come back and tell us more. Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) Hi, Today I bought a blue-tooth speaker from Asda - cost me £10.00. Taking it apart is easy. The speaker is about 35mm diameter, the battery 3.5V/500mA, the circular pcb is probably 45mm diameter - I put it together again, without writing down the dimensions. It is not stereo, but is small enough to fit in 7mm loco. Not being much of a user of blue-tooth, I found it a bit of a faff getting the sound drivers for it, and setting it up to play sound from a w7 pc, but now working fine. If I get interested in this, I will most likely develop my own software, I want the sound to be related to what the loco is doing, without having to fiddle with a separate sound controller. I have a problem with the concept of scale in sound, in particular with steam locos. A 7mm scale exhaust does not make the same sound as a full size one, and I haven't scale ears, the volume also needs adjusting to suit the distance I am from the loco. Too much to think about Best wishes, Ray Hi Ray.... I'm really glad someone else has decided to give Bluetooth Audio Streaming a try.... The more tests that are carried out, and the more appraisals that are reported the better. I agree that interfaced sound and motion control is important (and still my objective) but the SoundCart method is offered as a viable alternative for those who are interested. I am piping steam sounds through my BT speakers as I type and I am very impressed. I must admit, in my mind's eye, it seems as if there is a scale steamer simmering away less than 36 inches from my seat. Is it possible that your 'scale sound' problem is due to the nature of the sounds you are using. As an example, have a listen to this <http://www.railwaysounds.co.uk/nymr/nymrvintage/btp/b9.mp3> Play it through your BT speaker (placed about 36 inches away). I certainly have no problem with listening for 'scale sound'.... I don't think volume plays a part...it's the quality that counts, and these are excellent. (The tracks on the Railway Sounds site come under the Creative Commons Licence that I spoke of...) Randall Edited April 3, 2014 by RandyWales Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Hi Randall, I have to get my head around what it is that I don't like about the sound. I think it is related to the fact that, say 5inch gauge live steam, does not sound like full size steam loco's, and 7mm scale would never sound like full size. I think it is how I perceive the model. Now, if I look at a video, or a pc simulator with a similar size to the model, then the sound seems fine - it's how the model and media is interpreted. It may be some time before I can delve further into this, but I think it is also related to the fact that when we are, say, three foot from the model, then in full size that is more or less equivalent to 130ft. The inverse square law applies to sound attenuation (ignoring reflections and absorption), but the attenuation is also proportional to the square of the frequency. However that is in real air, over 130ft, say, so ideally we need some other density of air to give the same effect over our distance of 3ft. I will most likely be passing the sounds through a filter of some sort to get to something that suits me, but whatever we do, we can't scale nature. Taking a more obvious example wrt scaling of nature - if you scale down the 'gloss' of a full size car to 7mm scale, it would be far too shiny, so we paint them in something that looks right, and rough surfaces e.g. brickwork, at true scale would be more or less smooth, but mortar joints are often exaggerated (and it is not related to how the model looks in a photo).. Now, for diesel loco sound, the effect of scaling is not so noticeable to me, partly due to the fact that visually there is not so much going on and the sound is more of a vibration/rattle compared to distinct blasts. I'm also looking for a puff of steam/smoke for every chuff of a model steam loco, and even with a perfect steam/smoke generator (the current ones are pretty weedy imnsho) it would still be necessary to put in an appropriate delay, due to the speed of light being a bit faster than the speed of sound (about 12mS delay between 3 ft and 130ft for sound, and too small to be any concern for light ). So far, all steam loco model sounds are worse than no sound for me - I guess a bit like watching a silent movie with a good story compared to one with poorly dubbed sound. It is not that complicated, I'd just want to tweak the sounds so they sounded right to me, at the scale distance I will be, and I'm not sure when I will get around to doing that. However, I think I may take the track you mention, and see if I can massage it into something more acceptable to me, at a scale 130ft away. Best wishes, Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 Hi Randall, I have to get my head around what it is that I don't like about the sound. I think it is related to the fact that, say 5inch gauge live steam, does not sound like full size steam loco's, and 7mm scale would never sound like full size. I think it is how I perceive the model. Now, if I look at a video, or a pc simulator with a similar size to the model, then the sound seems fine - it's how the model and media is interpreted. It may be some time before I can delve further into this, but I think it is also related to the fact that when we are, say, three foot from the model, then in full size that is more or less equivalent to 130ft. The inverse square law applies to sound attenuation (ignoring reflections and absorption), but the attenuation is also proportional to the square of the frequency. However that is in real air, over 130ft, say, so ideally we need some other density of air to give the same effect over our distance of 3ft. I will most likely be passing the sounds through a filter of some sort to get to something that suits me, but whatever we do, we can't scale nature. Taking a more obvious example wrt scaling of nature - if you scale down the 'gloss' of a full size car to 7mm scale, it would be far too shiny, so we paint them in something that looks right, and rough surfaces e.g. brickwork, at true scale would be more or less smooth, but mortar joints are often exaggerated (and it is not related to how the model looks in a photo).. Now, for diesel loco sound, the effect of scaling is not so noticeable to me, partly due to the fact that visually there is not so much going on and the sound is more of a vibration/rattle compared to distinct blasts. I'm also looking for a puff of steam/smoke for every chuff of a model steam loco, and even with a perfect steam/smoke generator (the current ones are pretty weedy imnsho) it would still be necessary to put in an appropriate delay, due to the speed of light being a bit faster than the speed of sound (about 12mS delay between 3 ft and 130ft for sound, and too small to be any concern for light ). So far, all steam loco model sounds are worse than no sound for me - I guess a bit like watching a silent movie with a good story compared to one with poorly dubbed sound. It is not that complicated, I'd just want to tweak the sounds so they sounded right to me, at the scale distance I will be, and I'm not sure when I will get around to doing that. However, I think I may take the track you mention, and see if I can massage it into something more acceptable to me, at a scale 130ft away. Best wishes, Ray. Hi Ray.... Everything we do modelwise has to be a compromise, doesn't it? Sounds through a chip are made up of tiny samples stitched together. Playback of a soundtrack through an onboard speaker is infinitely better, given all the compromises. If you look at the Railway Sounds website, you will see that the sounds were recorded using professional techniques (there is a page dedicated to How we Dunnit). There is a reference to the best recording distance-from-the-subject and they echo what you are saying. Maybe sampling those specific sounds will give you better results. Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Hi Randall, Thanks for the link, I'll poke around on there. This could get quite interesting, in an armchair modelling sort of way . I'd need a camera located in the ceiling with a fisheye lens, then software to recognise the top of my head, and the locos, then software to calculate the distances and adjust the sounds accordingly. Then, it wouldn't need speakers in the loco - probably normal stereo would do. Apart from the software, the total hardware cost would still be less than a single sound chip. A few years ago my daughter had a flat close to Clapham Junction. Looking down on the railway through double glazed windows was OK, no sound at all. Best wishes, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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