Southern Region banned stock

[Dan Griffin]

Hi all, now I'm laying 3rd rail on my layout after a purchase of the superb, CEP, VEP, EPB and MLV I'm a southern convert. My question is for those in the know, was there any stock that was strictly banned from the 3rd rail metals? I have a good stud of stuff that I know is ok, like 20,31.33,37,47,50,60 but what about the likes of 25's, peaks 40's 58 and 56''s. I also have a pair of snowploughs from flangeway. These are quite low and I would image would catch the juice rail. Any pointers would be great. Thanks

[bodmin16]

I spent many an hour in my youth (mid to late 70s) train spotting at Battledown flyover, some of the more "unusual workings" included Westerns and the odd peak on the stone train (16t minerals?) from the West Country to the stone siding in Basingstoke. 37s on the ripple lane tanks to micheldever. I seem to recall seeing a 40 in the clapham area but it was a long time ago and it may be my memory playing tricks with me.

[phil-b259]

As far as I am aware there were no specific region wide bans on any of the locos you mention - though the heavier locos may have been banned from certain routes, but thats nothing to do with con rails.

 

Miniature snowploughs - or at least those used elsewhere might have been banned, but I have a feeling there was a SR compliment version fitted to some 33s

 

On the coaching stock side Mk3 vehicles fitted with long link suspension were and still are banned from the region.

[Nedrahn]

John Vaughan's "Diesels on the Southern" shows most main line diesels on juiced up lines, including Class 25 and, would you believe, Class 27. Even a Class 16 once had a day trip to Brighton. I would say the greatest concern for any 'foreigner' would be loading gauge, not hitting the third rail. And that's probably only true of the squeezed SER/LCDR lines. Even then we've had Deltics in Kent. Would a Western be allowed, I wonder?

[NXEA!]

Hi all, now I'm laying 3rd rail on my layout after a purchase of the superb, CEP, VEP, EPB and MLV I'm a southern convert. My question is for those in the know, was there any stock that was strictly banned from the 3rd rail metals? I have a good stud of stuff that I know is ok, like 20,31.33,37,47,50,60 but what about the likes of 25's, peaks 40's 58 and 56''s. I also have a pair of snowploughs from flangeway. These are quite low and I would image would catch the juice rail. Any pointers would be great. Thanks

58's were regulars in the Eastleigh area before they were withdrawn by EWS on Enterprise workings. 56's were shedded at Stewarts Lane, and so regularly operated over third rail on trains to Hoo Junction and Hither Green. 25's should be ok as 24's were initially delivered to the SR to cover for the late delivery of 33's, and for all intents and purposes they are almost the same locomotive, and I imagine they would have appeared on transfer freights between regions at some point, to Norwood Junction for example, as some were allocated to the LMR and appeared in the London area from time to time. Not sure on Peaks and 40's, but as others have mentioned the only real restrictions with rolling stock is clearances, as with other regions. 40's and Peak's never appeared on inter-regional passenger services to the Southern, and as they were nominally banned from yards because of tight point curvature and their long wheelbase, they wouldn't have had much reason to turn up on the Southern. 

[Southernman46]

 Peak's never appeared on inter-regional passenger services to the Southern, and as they were nominally banned from yards because of tight point curvature and their long wheelbase, they wouldn't have had much reason to turn up on the Southern. 

Birkenhead - Margate

 

Southfleet coal trains

 

Chatham Dockyard nuclear fuel traffic

 

and that's just Kent

[NXEA!]

Birkenhead - Margate

 

Southfleet coal trains

 

Chatham Dockyard nuclear fuel traffic

 

and that's just Kent

I stand corrected! OP, don't listen to me about that last bit, seems I'm completely wrong! 

 

EDIT: And here's a shot of a Peak on the SW Region just to prove it: 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6258900466

 

And to prove myself wrong on the 40 statement too, here's a shot of one DIT at Eastleigh: https://www.flickr.com/photos/59572134@N07/5456140396

 

There are shots of celebrity 40122 visiting Basingstoke on a railtour in 1987 on Flickr too, and it appears 40118 worked a Cathedrals Express railtour in 1978 which went from Exeter - Reading West (and onto Didcot and Cardiff) via Salisbury, Basingstoke and Southcote Junction. 

[eastwestdivide]

Another Peak (via Waterloo!) here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/15592-peak-on-the-southern-85-9a-10jpg/

and a 50 at Hoo Junction here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/15590-50-on-the-south-eastern-85-6-31-50050-hoo-jnjpg/

 

and in addition to Southernman46's list above, 45s worked double-heading with 47s on HAA/MGR coal hoppers to Northfleet cement works (is that where you meant?)

 

25s worked inter-regional freights (I've seen them at Clapham Junction)

 

56s common enough on aggregates to the SR from the Westbury direction from the early 80s, and then more widespread use.

 

40s pretty rare on the SR, but then they were never that common "down south" anyway, at least by the 1970s.

 

Plenty of mini-snowploughs on 33s (see the thread on the class 33s at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81713-class-33-photos/) - don't know if any other classes' mini-snowploughs might foul the 3rd rail though. However, if you meant independent snowploughs, the SR had their own allocation. Ashford for one pair, e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/6672431939/

and also on page 3 of that 33s thread linked above.

[Dan Griffin]

Thanks guy great info there. I do appreciate it.

[griffgriff]

Peaks were a regular on the 'Severn Tunnel' to Eastleigh freight - they certainly didn't find the yard there at all difficult to negotiate. Most evenings used to produce one*, we used you go to our local spotting spot at around 7:30 (Early 80's) and waited patiently,  it was rather disappointing if a 47 turned up. 

 

*I remember seeing 46 026 one night working south. Now I live in Leicestershire and work in Derbyshire.  It must have been foretold in the stars

[The Pilotman]

Back in the early 80s I recall a 40 appearing on the west curve at Reading with a southbound freightliner. My mate and I were in our usual spotting spot at the cattle pens sidings and when it appeared we cycled like mad round to Reading West station just in time to see it whistling away towards Basingstoke. It went all the way to Southampton and back and there was a picture of it in the next edition of Rail Enthusiast magazine. Must have been a Saltley Seagull at the controls.

[Edwin_m]

Many parts of the Southern are still banned to 23m stock, even on the Southwestern despite of 444s, formerly 442s and diverted HSTs being permitted on the principal routes.  This is a major reason why most of our EMU classes use 20m bodyshells. 

[SRman]

John Vaughan's "Diesels on the Southern" shows most main line diesels on juiced up lines, including Class 25 and, would you believe, Class 27. Even a Class 16 once had a day trip to Brighton. I would say the greatest concern for any 'foreigner' would be loading gauge, not hitting the third rail. And that's probably only true of the squeezed SER/LCDR lines. Even then we've had Deltics in Kent. Would a Western be allowed, I wonder?

 

As bodmin16 has already said, Westerns did find their way onto the SR. One fairly regular use was on the Acton yard to Norwood Junction transfer freight.

 

I believe there was an excursion which took a Deltic to Brighton on at least one occasion.

 

Class 27s were extremely rare on the SR but there are photos to prove it did happen. One book shows a double-headed freight with D5183 and D5381 (class 25 + class 27). I rather like the anagram loco numbers!

[AberdeenBill]

In slightly earlier days, Hymeks and (class 42) Warships were frequently seen on the South Western division.  

 

Bill

[roythebus]

I was once rostered (circa 1983) to conduct a class 40 railtour originating from the ER from Epsom to Portmouth Harbour via the New Line. It was cancelled at the last minute due to industrial action by Stratford maintenance staff.

 

AFAIK there were no restrictions on diesels on the SW division, though Chelsea Bridge on the WLL had restrictions for a while.

[Ian J.]

IIRC, it was during steam days that some Great Western classes were banned due to being over-width and hitting platforms. I don't think there were any region wide bans though. Certainly after steam had gone I think the standardization of stock meant less restrictions except on certain very specific routes (Hastings services due to very narrow tunnels, and South Western lines such as Bournemouth-Weymouth for long carriages due to tight curves at Poole and Dorcester).

[Pete 75C]

As bodmin16 has already said, Westerns did find their way onto the SR. One fairly regular use was on the Acton yard to Norwood Junction transfer freight.

 

Here's one at Kenny O bound for Norwood (usually the down side yard), quite a common sight in the early 70s.

 

http://www.jeremydesouza.com/Featurecollections/Class-52s/21766242_7Lmrnx/1735133139_Pwmm8qN#!i=1735133139&k=Pwmm8qN&lb=1&s=A

[Guest Belgian]

Many parts of the Southern are still banned to 23m stock, even on the Southwestern despite of 444s, formerly 442s and diverted HSTs being permitted on the principal routes.  This is a major reason why most of our EMU classes use 23m bodyshells. 

Do you really mean that? I think you mean that is why most of our EMU classes use 20m bodyshells.

 

JE

[Edwin_m]

Do you really mean that? I think you mean that is why most of our EMU classes use 20m bodyshells.

 

JE

Oops.  I will edit it. 

[Dunsignalling]

I remember seeing a Peak heading east through Honiton on an Exeter-Waterloo service in late 1983/early 1984 but I don't know if it went all the way to London. 

 

There was (and may stll be) a prohibition of some HST/Mk3 stock over 3rd rail electrified routes. The notices used to refer to stock with "long swing-link" bogies being banned; I'd guess because said link would get too close to the juice rail. I don't recall seeing this In more recent times, so maybe the offending stock was later modified.

 

John

[bingley hall]

Class 27s worked cross London freights into Hither Green before they were all transferred north c 1967/68.

 

Only ever heard of one class 40 making it across to the SE Division around that time - same day as a Willesden Jct open day (16/10/67 form memory). D383 - my mates aw it at Hither Green and I saw it a Willesden - my first ever 40.

 

The daily Temple Mills - Hoo freight was usually a class 31, but the odd 37 and Class 15 also turned up. I have a vague memory of it once being a Class 23, but 45 years on, my mind might be playing tricks. 

[Rivercider]

The Southern Region was one of the first parts of the network to become 'fully fitted' for freight traffic, some time in the very early 1980s.

Thereafter all wagons would be formed into air braked, or vacuum braked trains (with a few specialist piped only vehicles in some trains).

So remaining unfitted 16t minerals, 21t hoppers, steel carriers and grampus wagons, for example, would no longer be seen on the southern

 

cheers

[Fat Controller]

Class 27s worked cross London freights into Hither Green before they were all transferred north c 1967/68.

 

Only ever heard of one class 40 making it across to the SE Division around that time - same day as a Willesden Jct open day (16/10/67 form memory). D383 - my mates aw it at Hither Green and I saw it a Willesden - my first ever 40.

 

The daily Temple Mills - Hoo freight was usually a class 31, but the odd 37 and Class 15 also turned up. I have a vague memory of it once being a Class 23, but 45 years on, my mind might be playing tricks. 

I've seen a photo somewhere (Railway Magazine?) of a 40 at Folkestone Central, taken in the very late 1960s/early 1970s. It was on a passenger working; not sure if it was a public excursion or a troop train.

[Gwiwer]

Birkenhead - Margate

 

Southfleet coal trains

 

Chatham Dockyard nuclear fuel traffic

 

and that's just Kent

 

Peaks most certainly DID appear on inter-regional to / from SR passenger workings.  For some years there was a summer Saturday Wolverhampton - Portsmouth Harbour working which you really had to look hard for in the timetables as it had no other advertised stop on the SR (its last / first advertised stop was at Oxford IIRC) so didn't show up in their regional books at all.  It was only found on inter-regional timetable pages.  Despite allegations from many railway staff at the time that Peaks (and class 40) were banned to the Harbour account their mass they were the normal motive power on this working.

 

There was also a Sheffield - Portsmouth Harbour working which likewise produced a Peak and was similarly hard to find in the SR timetables.  Both came down overnight on Fridays and an early morning visit to Fratton on a summer Saturday wold be rewarded by the sight of not one but two Peaks on the fuel road and sometimes alongside a Hymek awaiting its turn to lead a Bristol service.  I venture to suggest you wouldn't find that combination sighted very often on the SR.

 

Long swing-links have already been mentioned.  The short-lived cross-country sleeping car service to and from Poole required use of a small number of converted Mk3 sleepers as most had IIRC the long links and were thus banned from the SR.  The same situation arose when the Night Riviera was diverted from Paddington to Waterloo for a few years hoping to offer useful connections into / out of Eurostar services.  FGW sleepers are all now fitted with short swing links.  I'm not sure about the Caledonian ones which might therefore be barred from diversion over the third-rail electrified lines through Acton if such a move were ever required.  They are already barred from the DC lines out to Watford.

 

The use of HST and loose-coupled Mk3 vehicles on cross-country services was subject to the same restriction and again I believe all HST vehicles are now fitted with the short links making that no longer applicable.

 

There are many restrictions upon 23m vehicles over parts of the SR but these relate to structure clearances and not to conductor rails.  Typically these are now suburban routes where such stock would never normally venture as most main lines have been cleared for either HST, Voyager or class 158 / 159 use over the years not to mention the SR's own class 442 and 444 units.

 

Class 52 has also been mentioned.  These had regular workings over many SR routes at times.  During motorway construction they worked daily from the Somerset quarries to Merstham via Reading and Guildford.  They have worked stone trains to Fareham via Botley and have appeared on charters to Brighton via the main line and the west coast and to numerous other locations.  

 

I know of no locomotive restrictions over SR electrified routes caused by the presence of the conductor rails.  The only restrictions are (or were) occasioned by the Restriction 0 (Mountfield) and Restriction 1 (Groombridge) "narrow" routes and specific weight limits.

[roythebus]

IF I've still got my Sectional Appendix I'll look it up, but somehow I think the book has gone. That'll give route restrictions for locos. there's also a "working across" book which lists the restrictions on stock "working across" to other regions. ISTR A4s were banned from the Greenford Loop...