What To Do With The GBL 28XX?

[Smiffy2]

Cheers, Keith.

I know what you mean, and I'll weather it somewhat (when I get the hang of plain colours!). It also looks completely different in daylight, which I expect. It's just that it looks - a bit vibrant, to say the least.

[Castle]

That's looking good.

 

Can I ask a chimpish question?

Due to the generosity of Knobhead I now have a complete 28xx, and I've tidied it up and painted it back to unlined GWR green. Or what Humbrol says is Brunswick green...

It looks a bit bright (I've got varnish on it at the moment as recommended whilst handling and before placing decals) - what's the general opinion of that Humbrol shade - will it look better when flattened with matt varnish and toned down by the black areas? Or is it a dead loss, buy the Precision Paints and overspray it?

Hi Mr Monkey, err, I mean Ape (Discworld joke!)

 

I would wait until you add matt varnish and the reappraise the situation. You will find that the last layer of varnish may knock it back a bit visually. Certainly not a dead loss!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Mr Brunel]

Hi Mr Monkey, err, I mean Ape (Discworld joke!)

 

Careful now, we don't want him going Bursar (!)

[Smiffy2]

I see a PO van coming on - Dried Frog Pills, Ankh Morpork, Purveyors to the Gentry...

 

In fact, what would the railway in Raising Steam look like? No illustrations in the book apart from a cabless 4-4-0...

 

Could be fun.

[knobhead]

I agree with melmerby and Castle, Smiffy2. Go all the way and see how it looks.

 

Regards,

 

Stefan

[Smiffy2]

Masked it up and sprayed the black parts - too heavily in one area - and I'll strip off the tape later and see how it goes. Then a pic if it's not too shaming...

[Smiffy2]

This is how it turned out - I was quite pleased for a first attempt.

 

 

I'm leaving it gloss for the moment whilst sourcing some waterslides and etched plates, then detailed paint and touch up, adding some missing detail and a coat of flat.

 

Should the reversing lever be red c1930?

[knobhead]

I like it already and the final coat of flat varnish will do the trick, methinks.

 

Red would be my guess?

 

Regards,

 

Stefan

[Smiffy2]

I'm cautiously pleased. This is practice for repainting some BR/LBSC Terriers et al into Southern olive green at some point in the future. There's a bit of orange peel where I've sprayed a bit enthusiastically, and I'm thinking of perhaps an airbrush. In fact Mrs S asked me what I wanted for my birthday just yesterday evening...

 

I'll let you have your thread back, now, Stefan!

[knobhead]

You're welcome anytime, Smiffy2!

 

Regards,

 

Stefan

[farren]

Super work as always stefan. Even for a GWR locomotive

 

Smiffy2 is the green from a spray can or a tin let. As I have a a scot and a princess coronation done by a spray can humbrol and they look a different shade.

[Smiffy2]

Humbrol Brunswick Green spray. It looks different every time I look at it! It's a darker hue than the photographs, and pretty close to what I remember (not that that means much, of course).

[TheWeatheringMan]

Hi,

Regrettably for modellers the Humbrol Brunswick Green is based on a British Standard colour and is not correct for British Railways Standard Locomotive Green (BR Spec. 30A. Item 34 in the BR paint catalogue) - the BR colour is a deeper and 'bluer' shade.

The Humbrol colour is even more wrong for Great Western Railway 'Middle Chrome Green' - MCG is a lighter and more yellow shade of green.

 

There are technical reasons connected with application processes on the real GWR why a model manufacturer produces several 'shades' of GWR green in order to replicate the colour as it appeared over many years.

 

I won't open the debate as to how different people 'see' different colours as I'm only too well aware of the arguments that have taken place over the years.

Suffice it to say that the Humbrol colour called Brunswick Green does not correctly match any railway livery shade. Remember that Humbrol have for many years called a colour in their 'authentic' range GWR/BR loco green - both it cannot be as except for a short period after nationalisation when old stocks were being used up on the Western Region the GWR and BR colours were very different.

 

Hope that helps prevent locos being painted the wrong colour chaps.

Regards.

[melmerby]

Hi,

Regrettably for modellers the Humbrol Brunswick Green is based on a British Standard colour and is not correct for British Railways Standard Locomotive Green (BR Spec. 30A. Item 34 in the BR paint catalogue) - the BR colour is a deeper and 'bluer' shade.

The Humbrol colour is even more wrong for Great Western Railway 'Middle Chrome Green' - MCG is a lighter and more yellow shade of green.

 

There are technical reasons connected with application processes on the real GWR why a model manufacturer produces several 'shades' of GWR green in order to replicate the colour as it appeared over many years.

 

I won't open the debate as to how different people 'see' different colours as I'm only too well aware of the arguments that have taken place over the years.

Suffice it to say that the Humbrol colour called Brunswick Green does not correctly match any railway livery shade. Remember that Humbrol have for many years called a colour in their 'authentic' range GWR/BR loco green - both it cannot be as except for a short period after nationalisation when old stocks were being used up on the Western Region the GWR and BR colours were very different.

 

Hope that helps prevent locos being painted the wrong colour chaps.

Regards.

If you look at your book "Great Western Way" you will see there are four different "Middle Chrome" Greens for GWR locos depending on period. (Precision Paints do all 4)

It also states the BR Brunswick green is similar to the final GWR green (1945-48 and is BS 381C No 224 "Deep Bronze Green" see here: http://www.e-paint.co.uk/BS381%20Colourchart.asp

 

Keith

[TheWeatheringMan]

Hi,

I myself use much Railmatch paint and have had no problems with consistency between batches.

However it should be noted that there is a difference between Railmatch BR green and Precision BR green.

Having tested both colours with modern colour analysing equipment and cross referenced the results with a tested sample of BR original stock I can say beyond all doubt which is a technical match and thus correct in colour.

Does that version actually look correct on a model ?  -  to me personally yes it does and that is the version I use on my models.

However to another modeller my choice might look wrong and that modeller could well say that the other make looks more correct to him/her.

This is something that can't be argued about as colour perception and memory are different and individual.

One of the model paint BR greens is slightly darker and 'bluer' whilst the other is slightly lighter and more 'yellow'

The reason for a variation can be due to a number of factors such as source of colour sample, type of paint, how the colour sample was prepared etc.

 

I have been asked over many years what is this or that most authentic colour (not just BR green) is or which available colour is correct.

The answer is simple......

The correct authentic colour for your model is the colour that looks correct to you.

Other people might say they disagree with the colour but that's because they are looking at your model with different eyes.

 

Hope that's of interest,

Regards All

[TheWeatheringMan]

Hi Keith,

I posted a comprehensive reply to yours re GWR green but seem to have accidentally deleted it.

I will do it again later tonight in the hope the same doesn't happen.

Great Western Way does not make the correct situation clear I'm afraid and has misled many on this point.

Will explain later,

Regards

[Castle]

Hi Stefan,

 

How's the 28XX conversion going?!?

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[knobhead]

Hi Castle,

 

It's moving on nicely, getting close!

 

A while back I promised that North Star will be the next completed loco and the intention is to keep that promise, despite a few snags on the way. I'm just about to post an update in that thread to explain.

 

Regards,

 

Stefan

[TheWeatheringMan]

Hi  Keith (Melmerby)

 

Firstly my apologies for the delay in re-doing this post (apologies also to Stefan) - I got ready to do this on Wednesday evening but as it was so late I fell asleep and then I was out all day yesterday and couldn't get it done.

However here goes.

 

May I add that this information is the result of extensive research done in the early 1970's into a number of matters connected with railway liveries and due to the nature of what I was involved with at the time I had access to records and samples at Swindon Works and several other places including paint manufacturers.

 

Over the years there has developed a misconception regarding the green of the GWR. This has not been helped by paint manufacturers who have produced so called 'period' colours without explaining what the actual situation was.

 

There were officially only ever three shades of green used by the GWR for locomotives throughout its life.

Before going on to describe the use of these the following must be borne in mind : over the many years of the GWR it was only to be expected that there would be some variation in the shade of green applied to locomotives. This was due to the changing chemistry of paint making, paint being mixed by different people, the practice of 'using up' odds and ends that could so often result in a small amount of another colour being added to a mix being used and of course the difficulties associated with two world wars.

What must be kept in mind is that such variation was not ever official and was also normally short lived.

The standing instruction as dictated by the Painting Committee of the Company required that the colour remained matched to the currently used colour.

 

To deal with the three colours as mentioned:

The first shade to deal with is the odd man out. The Oxford, Worcester and Wolverhampton Railway had used a colour best described as a 'bluish pea green' at Stafford Road works in Wolverhampton. This colour was continued into the West Midland Railway era. Following the take over of the WMR by the GWR the 'Wolverhampton' green was continued for locomotives allocated to the GWR Northern Division that were repainted at Stafford Road. This colour was designated as 'Northern Division Locomotive Green' and thus can be considered as a GWR 'standard' colour.

When Joseph Armstrong moved from Stafford Road to succeed Daniel Gooch at Swindon the colour continued in use at SR under George Armstrong (brother of Joseph) for several more years.

The records are slightly unclear as to the exact date of ceasing to use Wolverhampton green.

Following Joseph Armstrong's replacement with William Dean at Swindon (Dean was previously assistant to George at SR), Dean allowed George to continue independently at SR until his retirement but during that time (date is unclear) the use of Wolverhampton green was phased out - to be replaced by Swindon green.

 

Swindon green : When the first locomotives for the GWR were ordered by Brunel the colours were applied by the builders - not having been specified by the Great man - a strange oversight as he specified almost everything else - including the matters that crippled those early engines!.

Following the setting up of the works at Swindon and the building of the first locomotives to the design of Daniel Gooch, the Directors made the decision to have the Company's locomotives painted in a dark green colour.

This colour was to be called 'Holly Green' and was indeed very close to the dark colour of Holly leaves.

Holly green was applied to locomotive repaints, both Broad Gauge and Narrow Gauge - the exception being those locos that had wood lagging to the boiler - the lagging continued in most cases to varnished wood.

Holly green was the colour that replaced 'Wolverhampton green' for Northern Division locomotives.

Holly green remained in use until 1894 for virtually all locomotives. Holly green is therefore the second colour to be considered as a 'standard' and of course overlapped with 'Wolverhampton' green for several years.

In  March 1894 the first of the 3031 class 4-2-2 Dean 'Singles' was out-shopped from Swindon and this locomotive was painted in a lighter shade of green than the current Holly green.

All the locomotives of the first batch of the 3031 class were likewise so painted but all other repaints at the time continued in Holly green as the new colour had not been endorsed by the Directors.

A short while later Dean submitted his proposal to adopt the new lighter colour for locomotives to the Board and following a meeting of the Painting Committee it was resolved that the new colour would be adopted as the standard colour for the Company's locomotives.

This colour was named 'Middle Chrome Green'.

 

The most important fact for us as modellers is that (subject to the comments about variations earlier in this post) that from its adoption in 1894 until the end of the Company in 1948 there was NO official change of colour thereafter.

 

Why therefor do model paint manufacturers produce three different shades of paint for the GWR?.

 

To find the answer it is necessary to know a bit more about how full size locomotives are painted and something of paint making history:

 

Full size locomotives were painted by applying several undercoats, rubbing down and filling as required. This is followed by several coats of colour, again rubbing down and filling as needed and then often a further coat or two of 'finishing' paint.

Although the next stages could vary between works and due to Company livery or policy the next stage would normally be to apply lining and other decorations.

Then would begin the process of varnishing - this could involve up to seven (yes seven) coats of varnish and might include rubbing down between coats.

All in all a long and carefully undertaken process that resulted in a superb standard of finish with a wonderful 'depth' to the colour - the old Midland Railway Crimson Lake was a case in point - a superb deep finish that cannot be matched by modern methods or using modern paints.

 

The other factor that effects the question is the varnish.

In the nineteenth century varnishes were totally different to what we know today.

They were heavy and dark as the technology simply didn't exist to produce what we have today - we can now produce 'water clear' varnishes that will not effect the underlying colour.

As will be understood from the above, the application of these dark varnishes had a marked effect on the colour of the paint underneath.

 

This effect is best illustrated by mentioning the matter of GWR coach livery.

In the early days of the Company the coaches were mostly painted in a deep brown overall.

After several years the Director felt that the vehicle's appearance needed improving so a Board meeting discussed this and (to quote official records) ' it was resolved that the upper panels of the coaches be painted white'

This was done and then of course several coats of varnish were applied to the white - and due to the dark varnish the upper panels straight away took on a 'creamy' look.

It was a good few years later that the use of cream paint commenced - it would seem from records that the adoption of cream was to keep the colour on the upper sides more consistent as the 'yellowing' of the white by the varnish was very variable - cream paint is more resistant to such variation.

 

Taking the above into consideration it can will be understood that the final colour as observed at the lineside would, due to the above, not be the same colour seen in the paintshop prior to varnishing - the colour observed at the lineside would appear darker due to the effects of the dark varnish.

There would of course also be the effects of weathering and aging of the paint and on some parts, the effect of heat, but for the purpose of this discussion we can ignore those.

 

The colour Known as Middle chrome Green was adopted in 1894 and that colour never officially changed.

What did happen is that in 1928 and 1945 the painting specifications at Swindon changed and the application process altered as a result. Also on those date as a result of these changes a new varnish went into use making use of newer and most importantly 'clearer' varnishes of improved chemistry.

 

Thus and very importantly, although the colour of green applied did not change, what was observed at the lineside did look different - the varnish causing less darkening of the actual colour.

 

Now we as modellers do not and really cannot replicate the whole of the paint application process of Swindon Works nor can we use the materials (especially varnishes) from those days.

 

What we need to do is to replicate the appearance of a locomotive as observed at the lineside during a given period (subject to weathering etc.) and in order to be able to do this we have to use different shades of green to capture the look of the results of the Swindon process for our chosen period.

This is why the model paint manufacturers produce three shades of GWR locomotive green - this enables us to do this.

This totally correct course was adopted by the originator of Precision Paints many years ago and has been followed by others since.

 

Moving on to a few other points raised by this correspondence:

 

The publication 'Great Western Way' was written to assist modellers and the colour patches at the rear of the book were matched to the master panels at Swindon Works. Because these panels record the application of the paint & varnish as described above they do of course show the effects and variation I have described (I had access to those panels during my research as did the originator of Precision) so the panels in Great Western Way correctly provide the modeller with these different appearances as would be required - what the book does not do unfortunately is to clearly explain the reason for the different shades and is therefore to some extent guilty of adding to the confusion that has built up amongst modellers.

 

As to British Railways Standard locomotive green - this was formulated to the requirements of the British Transport Commission and was never at any time the same colour as the GWR colour. BR loco green was Brunswick Green and was a much 'bluer' colour than the GWR Middle Chrome Green.

BR Green itself appeared to change in 1954 - this was again due to changes in the varnish used so all the comments made above apply here.

The BR green was indeed similar to the last 'appearance' of GWR green - but no more so that Maunsell Green was to Bulleid Green - and yes I do know there were two versions of both of these!.

BR loco green was not by any stretch of the imagination BS381C No.226 Deep Bronze Green - 226 is a much 'browner' shade of green that is near identical to some samples of Maunsell Dark Olive once held by BR works.

 

Again all of the above is subject to the old arguments about what exactly should an authentic colour be when applied to small scale models - even to the extent that should the same colour be used for an N gauge model as for an O gauge model.

I have had the benefit of sophisticated colour matching equipment, training and experience, access to official samples and information due to my professional conections and have worked closely with paint manufacturers during my research starting in the early 1970's due to my own interests in transport livery history (yes including bus liveries) and I have my own very definite opinions as to the colours I use on my models.

However I hold a very strong opinion that nobody can tell you the colour on your model is wrong when that colour looks right to you. Colour perception and memory is something that is almost never the same between two individuals. If you feel that the colour that you have used looks right to you personally then the colour IS right.

Officially held records keep old colours accurate for the future (needless to say some don't exist) so arguments over models is pointless as we all see colours differently.

 

I hope that this rather long post has been of interest - this is based on solid research that I'm pleased to be able to pass on to fellow modellers.

Only too happy to try and help if I can.

 

Regards to All.

[TheWeatheringMan]

The problem with any colour on a prototype loco is, once in service, it is subject to the effects of weather and that can change the shade enormously. (Just look how BR blue looked a couple of years out of the paint shop!)

The given colour is OK ex-works and even that varied from period to period!

 

Keith

 

EDIT in BR days the BR passenger green (so called Brunswick) always looked different to me on a Castle or a Jubilee, similar size and shape locos.

Hi Keith,

Re your Edit,

This is a well known phenomenon - many people reckoned that BR green on ex GWR designs looked 'different' to the colour on other Region's locos.

It has often been said that this was an optical illusion caused by the polished brass and copper - and yet I've never heard anyone say the colour on a Castle say, looked different to that on, say, a 14xx where a lot less polished metal was present.

I totally agree with what you say but for the life of me cannot offer an explanation that stands up to scrutiny!.

I've discussed this in the past with someone who assisted with repainting the Vale of Rheidol narrow gauge locomotives in Rail Blue - although I know that the paint on these came from the usual BR supplier and some of the same batch was used on diesels, the steam locos never looked the same shade.

I feel that this one will now forever remain a mystery.

All the Best.

[bgman]

So.......think you've got problems wondering what to do!

 

I've got 3 of the 28XX which will be modified but what do I do with this Rover? ( ' with a name like Rover ' spose I could take it for a walk!).

 

I'm enjoying your work Knobhead but could you slow down just a tad, it's getting my juices flowing and I don't know what to tackle next !!!

 

 

 

Happy modelling one and all !!

[knobhead]

I thought I had slowed down!

 

Your models look excellent, bgman, very inspiring. I will probably give something Broad Gauge a go, sooner or later. Love it.

 

Regards,

 

Stefan 

[bgman]

I thought I had slowed down!

 

Your models look excellent, bgman, very inspiring. I will probably give something Broad Gauge a go, sooner or later. Love it.

 

Regards,

 

Stefan

 

Thank you Stefan,

Slowing down? Hmmmm...... I've just started to get my mojo back and it's causing me to delve into my past efforts.

I thing this one will be some way off yet ( there are 3 Rover chassis's to build lurking in the to do box!).

Meanwhile, back in the room, it's good to inspire each other, problem being as I said to Andy Y at Taunton quote " can we have another tab on this site which says -You've got 30 minutes to look at the site NOW get on with your modelling!" Ha ha. Needless to say we ain't got one yet !

Keep being inspired I'm enjoying your work.

Grahame

[Horsetan]

....nobody can tell you the colour on your model is wrong when that colour looks right to you. Colour perception and memory is something that is almost never the same between two individuals. If you feel that the colour that you have used looks right to you personally then the colour IS right.

Officially held records keep old colours accurate for the future (needless to say some don't exist) so arguments over models is pointless as we all see colours differently.....

And not just this, but even the season and available ambient light, dust in the environment, in which you view an engine or coach, etc. can affect your perception of its colour shade.

[TheWeatheringMan]

And not just this, but even the season and available ambient light, dust in the environment, in which you view an engine or coach, etc. can affect your perception of its colour shade.

Hi,

I did clearly say 'colour perception' in my post you quoted - every aspect you have stated (all of which I'm aware of of course) is covered by the term 'colour perception' is it not.

 

Regards