mikeg Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 I have just had to rewire my layout due to a permanent short I could not find. When I had finished rewiring the short was gone but I had an overload error on my controller which I found after about 4hrs that I had not insulated one of my x'overs completely and the current was going back to one of the frog hex juicers on the double slip. Once I had cured this problem all seemed OK and a test loco, a 4w sentinel ran over all of the track with no problems, but when I ran a 2-6-0 tender loco with tender pick-ups over the double slip or the next point one of the cobalt motors, not the same one each time would change. Has anybody got any idea why tis should happen, as sometimes there is a short if the loco is running tender first, which changes the point motor back and if the controller is turned off the short clears. This does not happen with an 0-6-0t loco? Otherwise all works OK and I am very please with how simple it was to install and address the cobalts. Please can you help mike g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg Posted April 27, 2014 Author Share Posted April 27, 2014 Surely somebody has an answer to this problem? mike g in frustration!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 27, 2014 Sounds like a rogue feed somewhere - check the wiring/insulations carefully. The longer loco will bridge bigger gaps bringing new things into play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrysoham Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I seem to recollect reading somewhere that where you have frogs close together and/or a long wheel base loco the juicers do not work properly. Have you had a look at their website? Do they not have a help desk? If they don't they must have an email address so why not email them describing the problem and see if they know what is wrong? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danemouth Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I have two double slips on my layout running via frog juicers with a Powercab. Had absolutely no issues even with Granges, Halls and Warships which are the longest locos I Have. I agree with Beast - have a look for a rogue feed - perhaps just a whisker of wire somewhere. Sorry as ask the obvious but have all the rails on the double slip had insulated rail joiners fitted? Regards, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted April 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 27, 2014 Just out of curiosity, if you're working the slip with Cobalt DCC point motors, why are you using a Hex Frog Juicer for the polarity switching? This point motor has a polarity switch built-in and all you need to do is connect the "F" terminal to the frog in question. As this a double-slip then you connect the frog to the "F" terminal of the motor at the opposite end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danemouth Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Just out of curiosity, if you're working the slip with Cobalt DCC point motors, why are you using a Hex Frog Juicer for the polarity switching? This point motor has a polarity switch built-in and all you need to do is connect the "F" terminal to the frog in question. As this a double-slip then you connect the frog to the "F" terminal of the motor at the opposite end. My soldering is not very neat and I took the easy way out - all the points on the layout run via frog juicers. Perhaps the OP has the same problem! Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted April 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 27, 2014 Agreed - heading in that direction too - solid state much more reliable - but expensive! The OP hasn't told us how he is controlling his points - might help - but as beast suggests sounds like a rogue feed to the point motors. Are these Peco points? if so have the fitted droppers - which are bare wire - been insulated? Kind regards Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted April 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 27, 2014 My soldering is not very neat and I took the easy way out - all the points on the layout run via frog juicers. Perhaps the OP has the same problem! Dave The OP is using Cobalt motors which have sprung terminals for attaching wires, so no soldering needed here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted April 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 27, 2014 Ah - good point - have some cobalts so should have remembered that, apols Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danemouth Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 The OP is using Cobalt motors which have sprung terminals for attaching wires, so no soldering needed here. So am I! I used the frog juicers to minimise the number of droppers - if you saw my soldering you would understand why - I am only one step above useless in that department Regards, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 I am only one step above useless .......... Blowing your own trumpet again ? Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Thanks for the answers given but none apply as the slip is not the problem, the juicers were used when using mechanical control of the points, it is on other points that the problem occurs. All the points are copperclad soldered construction and have been used for about 20 years with no problems on DC with micro switches which were still used when I went over to DCC. I changed to Cobalts as I was tired of having to solder up the point rodding due to the joints breaking with the temperature changes in the loft, before I could run anything. There are no rogue connections as I have just striped out the original wiring and put in a new bus and jumpers. All was working OK until I had a short on the last X'over to have the cobalts fitted that somehow stopped one motor on another X'over working. I asked Richard about this problem and he said to try reversing the feed and this worked. I am not using the frog supply on the motors as I took Richards advice and used a resistor between the bus supply and the motor control to lower the voltage and this therefor could not be used for track power, so I have taken the original micro switch wires and used the switch on the motor to control the frog. I did not think it worth changing the slip as the juicers worked OK, but I think I may the slip to motor control and see if it cures the problem. many thanks for the well considered replies. regards mike g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 Hi, just to let those that replied the final of the rewiring. All now works, I have taken the Juicers out and used the cobalt switch, the slip works OK and I have not had the short or overload again. I have also got my turntable working correctly, it was wired in the wrong way round but as the change over switch was also wrong they had cancelled each other out! I still have a minor problem, one motor changes if there is a short anywhere on the layout, I think it may be because it is installed opposite to all the rest, it also changes at switch on of the layout but then goes back to the road set as soon as any power is applied to the layout for a loco, it can be any loco but seems to be if the last used is the first moved! thanks again for the replies it did help. regards mike g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Thanks for sparing the time to reply Mike, and for explaining how the issue was fixed. I don't know if it is just me, but the amount of times I notice people asking for some help/advice, and then the good folk on here spending there valuable time sometimes literally bending over backwards to help. Only for the OP to not even bother replying or saying a thank you, this really winds me up . ATB, Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg Posted May 11, 2014 Author Share Posted May 11, 2014 Hi, just an update to let you know that there was also a problem with a three way point before the slip, two insulated rail gaps had closed up and when the switch in the cobalt changed it caused a short that did not trip the system but due to my wiring switched another cobalt that did cause a permanent short its taken 5 hours to sort out the problem! regards mike g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted May 11, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 11, 2014 Complex isn't it!!! Glad you got sorted at last Have you decided to abandon juicers completely now? Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Martin Wynne, I think it was, told me about inexpensive, small industrial 12v 10 Amp contact relays probably about 15 years back. They and a tuppenny diode can be simply put across the drive input to the point motor and will automatically switch the frog correctly for around a Pound or two. I've never understood the advantage of a juicer over those Just as a curious question. Do Peco turnouts have a solderless reliable way of connecting power to their frogs (common crossings). Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted May 11, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 11, 2014 I don't know about solderless Andy - given the horrible hard steel wire they use for droppers soldering is bad enough!!!! Cheers Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 As a further note, I found that the insulated joiners had been destroyed due to rail expansion and therefore the shorts had not shown up on cold days, its only been lately with the hotter sun on the roof that the problem had become more acute. There were three joiners that had the centre tab crushed on the three way, and incidentally the centre track had been forced up out of the ballast which is why I think the problem became so much of a problem. I had emailed Richard at DCC concepts and as usual had a quick reply and I have let him know the out come. Hope this may help others, moral, make sure the track can expand more than one way and the gaps are wide enough! my middle siding had buffer stops made of soldered rail that were screwed down. regards, mike g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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