Possible production problems for Far East manufactured models?

[andyman7]

I am also finding that picking up super-detail models from the past few years that have wear and have lost a few bits make satisfying basis for repair and conversion, and are often prices at less than half the 'new' price. I am actually quite relieved to see 'must-have' new releases at a trickle, it lets me enjoy previous acquisitions and, as others have said, promotes some real modelling!

[dibber25]

It doesn't seem to have caused the American models much of a problem - Kato, Stewart Hobbies, etc. come stuffed to the gunwales with separate sprues of detailing parts, all included in the box, ready for you to add.

 

Same goes for the Euro outline stock from Roco, BEMO, etc. - a lot of them come with fit-your-own detail parts.

Yes, and the problem with those US models is that the detail parts can be next to impossible to fit. A couple of years ago I wrote on this forum my thoughts about a new Kato loco on which it was all but impossible to fit the tiny detail parts. From the manufacturer's point of view, it's great because it's YOUR fault that you can't fit them, not his for making the holes too small or the parts so fine that they break as you try to fit them. If they are fitted in the factory, they HAVE to be made so that they can be fitted easily.

[Scottish Modeller]

Perhaps we can look forward to going back to the creative, rewarding, cutting, gluing, filing, drilling and soldering years, rather than the "golden" years of exchanging more and more gold for mass produced plastic instant copies? 

 

Andy

Yes! At last a chance to do some modelling instead of box buying.....

[Dunsignalling]

Yes! At last a chance to do some modelling instead of box buying.....

I don't see why the availability of quality r-t-r models precludes anybody who really wants to from making their own. Neither is there any reason why one can't do both (as I do) though I admit preferring to buy items with complex lining etc rather than undertaking it myself!.

 

Those who are intimidated by the difficulty of equalling the best ready-made models are surely more likely to transfer their attention to snapping up second-hand examples of those products.

 

John

[Guest CPRAIL3000]

Kato models come with instructions to clear out the holes provided with a certain size of drill.  If this is carried out and a good quality set of fine tweezers and sharp hobby knife used I would say 90% of modellers could carry out the task on any Kato loco.  After doing one the task becomes much easier.  Patience is the key and decent eyesight!

[brushman47544]

decent eyesight!

 

Thank you for the warning not to buy Kato models.

[Oldddudders]

Yes, and the problem with those US models is that the detail parts can be next to impossible to fit. A couple of years ago I wrote on this forum my thoughts about a new Kato loco on which it was all but impossible to fit the tiny detail parts. From the manufacturer's point of view, it's great because it's YOUR fault that you can't fit them, not his for making the holes too small or the parts so fine that they break as you try to fit them. If they are fitted in the factory, they HAVE to be made so that they can be fitted easily.

Even US HO freight car kits can have parts that are impossible to fit, I found. Not the "shake-the-box" type, but those purporting to be scale and detailed. Little bits of plastic too small to hold in your fingers, yet which a parts-picker or tweezers would snap in two - hacienda that! And I have bought European models with a sprue of brake hoses and couplings that defied insertion, and would be most vulnerable during operations, too.

 

Detail can be a double-edged sword, I feel.

[APOLLO]

I usually do not fit "the small parts", as they tend to fall off as I handle the stock. I can't see them anyway as my loft layout is built within the rafters hence viewed form over 4 feet. I keep all my loco boxes now, with the packing / parts inside, and as I rarely weather / alter a loco it will (should !!) keep its value, probably gain some looking at the daft prices for s/h stuff on Hattons / ebay etc.

 

Well, that's what I do, and it's certainly not a norm in our hobby. As 7013 writes, the future of our hobby is looking a little bleak if production problems are not sorted. Perhaps the major manufacturers really believe we will wait patiently for months and months (or years !!) for new products which will be a gamble to obtain (even with pre-orders) and then willingly pay vastly inflated sums for the said product which we will invariably have not seen or test run etc.

 

I too have (virtually) finished spending - but NOT finished modelling. Tons and tons of work to do (fitting the small bits !!!!!?????).

 

I dug out my 1950's / 60's old tatty "Model Railroader" "Railway Modeller" & Model Railway Constructor" magazines yesterday. They are loaded with building & stock plans and construction methods using good old card and balsa etc. Back to the old days for me on my O gauge N American layout & OO loft layouts.

 

Brit15

[robmcg]

Interesting references in the above messages to eyesight. I am in my 60s and have been mildly myopic (short-sighted) with slight astigmia ( off-centre?) vision and at 63 yrs have been using specs for driving for 35 years, but only recently have had a slight fall-off in ability to see small parts close up, it's worse of course in poor light.  How I remember assembling Kitmaster models in average room light without effort, everything razor sharp! 

 

Pics of people like me at exhibitions show most wearing specs., but I tend not to for everyday living, nor do I wear them when looking at models. I use my camera to photograph my models and what errors I see then!

 

I wonder how much of the criticism heaped on modern RTR models is because digital photography and photos make it so much easier to see errors?

 

With very small parts I try not to use tweezers, because 'ping' and they are gone, even though I have a tiled floor. Some tweezers possibly have a better friction action than others I suspect. If forced I will create a jig where the part is on a piece of sticky tape on a convenient block and the engine is actually moved into position so a glued connection takes place and the sticky tape is the carefully separated, or some other 'left-field' technique, preferably with slow drying strong glue so a joint can be eyed from every angle.  But this is off-thread, my point is really that the quality and beauty of a model really is in the eye of the beholder. I was looking at google images of the Bachmann LMS Compound by Tony Wright yesterday and his outstanding camera work show things incredibly well, and just how superb modern RTR is. 

 

I hope he won't mind if I attach his pic here, if so I will remove it.

 

 

Rob

[farren]

I always imagine you in your early 20's not sixtys

[ejp]

Returning to the original post, the current newsletter from Austrains begins with news from China.

 

http://www.austrains.com.au/newsletters/NEWSLETTER_66_june_2014_ver1.pdf

[robmcg]

A very interesting document and thanks for getting us back on-thread.

 

The occupation of a Chinese factory and strike-breaking referred-to in the pdf was not in any news we got in general media here in NZ , nor has the mandated 5-year 100% rise in wages been reported ,  but I probably would have missed it, or our media does not like to cause trouble for our exporters of meat/wool/dairy/wood to China. 

 

I don't know the source of the information given, but it's quite disturbing ;

 

>>We had been given a shipping schedule which would have seen all product arrive by mid May. The factory went back to work after Chinese New Year for approximately thirteen days. Around the second week in March we were advised that there had been an incident at the factory and that there would be a slight delay in production. The incident turned out to be a full blown occupation of the factory by up to one thousand workers depending on what source you believe. The occupation lasted

fifty days and was finally broken by the police who, apparently, physically evicted the striking workers and arrested

the ring leaders. The first we heard that the strike was broken was when we received a call from our freight forwarder

telling us that a pallet of G class which had been stuck in the factory for seven weeks was on its way from China to

Hong Kong airport. This was followed by another pallet booked for sea freight.....<<

 

>>The golden days of manufacturing in China may be coming to an end. The China government

has mandated that workers will receive a 100% wage rise over five years commencing 1st

May, 2014 and ending 2019.

This is on top of annual price rises of from 10 to 20% we have had to tolerate over the past six years. This will bring

the wage of a Chinese production line worker up to around US$6,00 per hour. More than a base rate worker at

McDonalds gets in the USA. Every little bit of detail applied to that model you just bought is applied by one of those

workers. Imagine what that is going to do to the price of those fully detailed models the market now demands. So

where does the budding model railway manufacturer of the future go? India?, Thailand?, Kenya? Already some US

makers are pulling out and going to Mexico and the Europeans are heading for Bulgaria. Where does that leave Oz?<<

 

In any event, regardless of the accuracy of some things above, it shows what some UK-based manufacturers may be dealing with,  thankyou.

 

Rob

[APOLLO]

And don't forget folks, the 100% wage increase over 5 years (20% / year) will apply pretty quickly to the cost of ALL goods manufactured in China, which is most of what we buy (non food) these days.

 

Expensive times ahead.

 

Brit15

[trisonic]

I always imagine you in your early 20's not sixtys

That’s how I see myself - too. 

 

Bachmann will never be made in Eastern Europe - oops, someone got in before me.

 

The UK market will need a local “Rapido” type company with “smarts”,  flexibility and the ability to see opportunity in change.

I don’t see one right now.

 

Best, Pete.

[andyman7]

The Austrains newsletter is very interesting. Although written in somewhat, er, 'direct' style, it covers more than a few issues that have been aired on this thread, including the tendency for some to view holdups in supply or cancellation of models as matters of state; and also the rationale for direct selling rather than distributing only through dealers.

 

Whatever the arguments, the days of China as the magic factory that produced superdetailed models of endless variety at modest cost do seem to be past. I've just been thumbing through some old Railway Modellers, the 2002 issues now looks quite nostalgic (!) with pages of new product and models in various name/number combinations filling the lists, all at considerably sub-3 figure prices. Bacchy 25s at £38 a pop anyone? Hornby WC/BoBs at £70, variety of names/numbers/liveries? It was good while it lasted!     

[black and decker boy]

Returning to the original post, the current newsletter from Austrains begins with news from China.

 

http://www.austrains.com.au/newsletters/NEWSLETTER_66_june_2014_ver1.pdf

 

The prices listed make interesting comparisons for the UK. Allowing a currency exchange rate of £1 to 1.8$, we get

Short wheel base wagons (eg cattle vans) = £22

Bogie hoppers = £31

Coaches = £61

Locos = £133 to 250.

 

For the standard of models being offered, you would say current UK prices are lower but not by much.

[rembrow]

Something I picked up from the Austrains newsletter, is that they state that the effect of the Chinese government measures to raise workers wages will see the hourly rate of a worker in a model producing facility rise to $6 US, however in the now closed Bachmann-Why Price Rises are necessary thread, the Bachmann Branchline press statement as reported, advised that the effect was to raise the hourly rate to the equivalent of £6 UK. That's quite an anomaly and worth asking who is using the correct values, as there has been a view in the UK that the final hourly rate will be close to the UK minimum wage, whereas if the rate is in US dollars, it will be still some significant amount less, when you account for currency conversion and also plans in the UK to raise the minimum wage

[Fenman]

Something I picked up from the Austrains newsletter, is that they state that the effect of the Chinese government measures to raise workers wages will see the hourly rate of a worker in a model producing facility rise to $6 US, however in the now closed Bachmann-Why Price Rises are necessary thread, the Bachmann Branchline press statement as reported, advised that the effect was to raise the hourly rate to the equivalent of £6 UK. That's quite an anomaly and worth asking who is using the correct values, as there has been a view in the UK that the final hourly rate will be close to the UK minimum wage, whereas if the rate is in US dollars, it will be still some significant amount less, when you account for currency conversion and also plans in the UK to raise the minimum wage

 

You may not be comparing like with like: I understood the Chinese government had announced increases of 20% per year, every year, for five years. So it depends at which point in time you are making the comparison.

 

And from the experience of the last few years, the UK minimum wage is not going to increase at anything like the same rate. Nowhere near...

 

Paul

[railroadbill]

The excellent Austrains newsletter suggests that $6 an hour is more than a worker in McDonalds in the US gets. But a further comparison is how much $6 will buy that worker in the US versus  China.  The newsletter also suggests that "some us makers are pulling out and going to Mexico and

the Europeans are heading for Bulgaria."   Have I missed new  Bulgarian model railway manufacturer?

[railroadbill]

My wife has just bought a Miele vacuum cleaner, actually made in Germany (it says on it).  It was cheaper than a Dyson (British company but made in Far East) of the same specification, motor power, number of tools, dust capacity etc. It also appears to be better constructed, made to last.  Looking at the Miele web site they have 8 factories across Germany but also Austria, Czech Republic, Romania - and China. However, they seem to make a lot of their products in Europe. So if the German economy is strong through manufacturing, perhaps the UK...

[Godfrey Glyn]

There seems to be some fundamental differences between the way they do things in Germany and and the way we do it in the UK. I am sure you will be pleased with your vacuum cleaner, we have been very happy with ours for many years now. Miele is a family run firm. I get the impression that many good firms in Germany are run by a family and they have a real commitment to developing and improving their products and indeed their local community. Here we seem to want to sell out any successful firm to venture capitalists and then walk away. For successful manufacturing we need firms and employees who take pride in their service/product and are in it for the long term. As someone interested in woodworking I look upon Axminster Tools as an example of how it should, and can be done in the UK - a family run firm that has established itself, with committed, well trained staff and so able to provide an excellent service. I just wish there were more firms like them over here. Of course the other factor may be that we have this absolutely crazy economy based on the price of houses, reducing the amount of money that could be invested in manufacturing, but that's another story!

Godfrey

[rembrow]

Replying to Fenmans post 73, yes I was comparing like with like. The Austrains Newsletter quotes that the Chinese government wage rise will see wages rise by 100% over five years, with the end result being a wage of $6 per hour. The Bachmann Branchline press conference quoted the wages as rising from £3 to £6 during the 5 year government led wage increase programme. These values were taken from the Austrains newsletter posted on this thread and Andy Ys posting at the start of the 'Why Price Increases are Necessary Thread'. So one of those suppliers appears to have used the wrong currency. The $ may be correct as Kader prices in dollars, so the most likely currency for them to use as a value base.

The comment about the UK minimum wage is valid, as although the Chinese wage will rise much faster, it is from a much lower value starting point and if the US dollar rate per hour is correct, will end up still being significantly lower than the current UK minimum wage. The revised UK minimum wage for over 21 employees from 2014 is £6.50. The $6 rate converted at todays exchange of $1.67 to £1 works out as £3.59 per hour, just over half the 2014 UK minimum wage

[railroadbill]

There seems to be some fundamental differences between the way they do things in Germany and and the way we do it in the UK. I am sure you will be pleased with your vacuum cleaner, we have been very happy with ours for many years now. Miele is a family run firm. I get the impression that many good firms in Germany are run by a family and they have a real commitment to developing and improving their products and indeed their local community. Here we seem to want to sell out any successful firm to venture capitalists and then walk away. For successful manufacturing we need firms and employees who take pride in their service/product and are in it for the long term. As someone interested in woodworking I look upon Axminster Tools as an example of how it should, and can be done in the UK - a family run firm that has established itself, with committed, well trained staff and so able to provide an excellent service. I just wish there were more firms like them over here. Of course the other factor may be that we have this absolutely crazy economy based on the price of houses, reducing the amount of money that could be invested in manufacturing, but that's another story!

Godfrey

Agree 100% Godfrey. Good example is family firm BMW, doing rather well, whereas Austin, Morris, etc etc.  I once knew someone who ran a small company making up-market garden furniture. He just shut the factory down and got the products made in, I think, Malaysia. Tough on his employees but his profits went up. Probably less spending on health and safety in a far eastern factory....  but that became the trend for many businesses here (model railways being no exception).  However, there are people using their skills to produce furniture, craft items etc. by themselves on a small scale and selling via craft fairs, studio outlets and so on so perhaps all is not yet lost.

[Andy Hayter]

Replying to Fenmans post 73, yes I was comparing like with like. The Austrains Newsletter quotes that the Chinese government wage rise will see wages rise by 100% over five years, with the end result being a wage of $6 per hour. The Bachmann Branchline press conference quoted the wages as rising from £3 to £6 during the 5 year government led wage increase programme. These values were taken from the Austrains newsletter posted on this thread and Andy Ys posting at the start of the 'Why Price Increases are Necessary Thread'. So one of those suppliers appears to have used the wrong currency. The $ may be correct as Kader prices in dollars, so the most likely currency for them to use as a value base.

 

 

 

Is it not possible that the 2 companies are using different production facilities with different wage rates?  Both statements could therefore be correct.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Not always the case that European family run manufacturing businesses are totally successful. The PSA group, owned by the Peugeot family, has just had to recapitalise through selling part of the shares to  a Chinese partner and to the French government, so losing overall ownership/control. Renault were also a family business but that ended in 1945.

 

Most businesses, especially those with a long history were started by individuals and many ran as "family" owned/managed for many years.The post WW2 period caused many changes, which altered things as companies grew, amalgamated and took over other, smaller or less succesful operations.

 

The German model has been more successful than the French or Italian, while the UK got left almost completely behind. There are many reasons for this but as we don't discuss politics on RMweb, we can't really talk about why that happened..