APOLLO Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Bloody hell, I don't think even Frank "You've all done very well" Martin managed to make that sort of mistake. If you insult the Chinese, just remember that they can harbour very long (generations-long) and deep grudges against you as a result. China was a feudal society for a very very long time, and old habits / tendencies die hard. And therein lies a future problem bubbling away for us all here in the west in future years. If "we" have a "major fallout" with China they can just stop supplying us - Not only model railways but most, if not all of the basic items of life we need / use everyday. Not just ipads, iphones, I mean basic household goods, kettles, pots, pans, you name it. (just look around your house - you will be surprised to find much NOT made in China). Look at yesterdays news - Russia has signed a $400 billion deal to supply natural gas to China for the next 30 years. China may not need us anymore, they can trade their goods to Russia !! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27503017 Strange, rapidly changing world. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted May 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2014 I heard something along the lines that if a foriegn company owes money to a Chinese company after a period (unkown). The government pays the chinese company and the foriegn company then owes the Chinese government and stops all exports to said company until the debt has been settled including whatever intrest has been added. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 According to publications elsewhere, the entire CAD design team has resigned and left kader, no work since Chinese new year. Interesting Might this just be connected with the closure of the Kader (ex-Sanda Kan) factory in Dongguan (HK), where there have been (or still are) strikes rather than the other (main?) Kader factory/ies? I don't believe that Dongguan is in Hong Kong. It sits between Guangzhou (Canton) and Shenzhen, which is adjacent to Hong Kong. The article in the OP, expressly talks about The origin of the strike is that the management without negotiating with workers, decided to move the factory from Wanjiang District (in Dongguan) to Zhongtang town (over 10 Kilometres away). The Kader Manufacturing Services webpage (which I don't think has changed in the five years or so since they first published it) notes: Sanda Kan’s unique structure allows for maximum flexibility. Its production facilities are located in Songgang, Shenzhen and Wanjiang, Dongguan. and the article is clearly talking about the closure of the Wanjiang factory here, which I interpret to be the facility where Hornby products were made for many years and has been stated previously as being closed. That doesn't mean there aren't other problems at Kader, and of course, nor does it mean there are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted May 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2014 I don't know whether it's still the case but a few years ago all the world's zips were made in one city in China. Which may explain why so much military clothing and equpment is now fastened with Velcro. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Bloody hell, I don't think even Frank "You've all done very well" Martin managed to make that sort of mistake. If you insult the Chinese, just remember that they can harbour very long (generations-long) and deep grudges against you as a result. China was a feudal society for a very very long time, and old habits / tendencies die hard. Exactly my thoughts, which is the reason I posted, rather than rumour-mongering! Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrobuscp Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 The comment about the money comes as no surprise as I have heard from a very reliable source that Hornby's biggest concern at present is cash. It has also been suggested in the past that the fact that models started appearing in fits & starts might be as much to do with the ability to pay for them all at once as to any production difficulties but I have no firm information to confirm that. It's no surprise to me either. I haven't followed Hornby's accounts or trading results, but when a supply chain unwinds I would expect that cash would be liberated to some extent. The fact that there was mention last year of renegotiation of banking arrangements because existing covenants might be broken, and that at a time when such unwinding should already have taken place set alarm bells ringing for me. As the supply chain rebuilds cash requirements increase and therefore I'm not surprised that efforts have been made to reduce stocks, renegotiate retail margins, reduce cost, etc. It takes time to turn around a company and although I do wish Hornby well, I'm not at all certain that the change of direction happened soon enough. For me, Hornby appear to be in a fight for survival. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2014 For me, Hornby appear to be in a fight for survival. Without adequate product on shelves, all logic says you must be right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted May 24, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 24, 2014 Yep bottom line is if you've got nothing to sell you are just going to lose money. No real signs of anything coming through either! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Someone call Pfizer. They might still be in a mood to acquire a British company..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I can't help noticing that Airfix stuff is appearing regularly and on time. It's the trains that are causing problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Riddell Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I can't help noticing that Airfix stuff is appearing regularly and on time. It's the trains that are causing problems. It's a major help that the factory they're using is located in India, rather than China. From what I can gather, Hornby are in full control of the manufacturing process for Airfix kits, as opposed to the debacle we all know about for railway stuff. Besides, it's the end purchaser of an Airfix kit that assembles it, not a worker at the factory. That process is cut out. Shifting back to Bachmann, they may find moving country difficult, being a Chinese company. I'll speculate and say that I would not be in the least surprised if the Chinese government have a connection to them in some way. The Chinese government's rumoured (and I emphasise it's a rumour) to have a link to the Trumpeter/Hobby Boss/Merit International/Great Wall Hobby conglomerate of plastic kit producers, so why not Bachmann? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 It's a major help that the factory they're using is located in India, rather than China. From what I can gather, Hornby are in full control of the manufacturing process for Airfix kits, as opposed to the debacle we all know about for railway stuff. Besides, it's the end purchaser of an Airfix kit that assembles it, not a worker at the factory. That process is cut out. Mike. Yes, thats's very true. I posted it as a reminder that Hornby Groups' product covers much more than trains; I agree that these are difficult times for them and we don't know what the future holds, but the lack of new UK market train product does not represent their entire cash generating base. I can't speak for the continental ranges but Airfix supply seems fine, and Scalextric/Corgi doesn't seem to be in the same straits. Railroad seems better than 'main range'. It is getting the high detail stuff made to an acceptable timescale in acceptable quality that seems to be the real. issue. I do also wonder if the production quantity issue is also being distorted by the lack of supply meaning that high profile new releases sell out quickly leading to more cries of 'their weren't enough'. Certainly the Duke of Gloucester now seems to have good availability even though the first issues sold out instantly. The whole Christmas situation doesn't help - a bit like the old days of the August new car registration bonanza, it really doesn't help that everyone wants their new model on sale in December. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 25, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2014 I do also wonder if the production quantity issue is also being distorted by the lack of supply meaning that high profile new releases sell out quickly leading to more cries of 'their weren't enough'. Certainly the Duke of Gloucester now seems to have good availability even though the first issues sold out instantly. The whole Christmas situation doesn't help - a bit like the old days of the August new car registration bonanza, it really doesn't help that everyone wants their new model on sale in December. I suspect the people with the red boxes would be very pleased to see their models - any models - on sale yesterday! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Riddell Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Yes, thats's very true. I posted it as a reminder that Hornby Groups' product covers much more than trains; I agree that these are difficult times for them and we don't know what the future holds, but the lack of new UK market train product does not represent their entire cash generating base. I can't speak for the continental ranges but Airfix supply seems fine, and Scalextric/Corgi doesn't seem to be in the same straits. Railroad seems better than 'main range'. It is getting the high detail stuff made to an acceptable timescale in acceptable quality that seems to be the real. issue. I do also wonder if the production quantity issue is also being distorted by the lack of supply meaning that high profile new releases sell out quickly leading to more cries of 'their weren't enough'. Certainly the Duke of Gloucester now seems to have good availability even though the first issues sold out instantly. The whole Christmas situation doesn't help - a bit like the old days of the August new car registration bonanza, it really doesn't help that everyone wants their new model on sale in December. Agreed - Airfix seems fine. For general info, the latest "big ticket" item they've released is a new-tool 1/72 Douglas C-47 "Skytrain" (Dakota) in USAAF D-Day markings to coincide with the anniversary of Operation Overlord: HERE. This indicates that portion of the group's functioning fine and generating much needed revenue. Going back to Bachmann, although we're having a quiet spot at the moment, it's probable that we're going to see some activity soon. Not just with the new announcements, but Bachmann's TrainMail gives some indication of a new Collectors Club edition in the works. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 25, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2014 It's a major help that the factory they're using is located in India, rather than China. From what I can gather, Hornby are in full control of the manufacturing process for Airfix kits, as opposed to the debacle we all know about for railway stuff. Besides, it's the end purchaser of an Airfix kit that assembles it, not a worker at the factory. That process is cut out. Shifting back to Bachmann, they may find moving country difficult, being a Chinese company. I'll speculate and say that I would not be in the least surprised if the Chinese government have a connection to them in some way. The Chinese government's rumoured (and I emphasise it's a rumour) to have a link to the Trumpeter/Hobby Boss/Merit International/Great Wall Hobby conglomerate of plastic kit producers, so why not Bachmann? Mike. Kader is very much a Hong Kong oriented company at Director level - not so much mainland wise apart from, probably, the same as many other companies in it relations with Govt. Its Directors and shareholdings are listed on the internet as part of its reports in compliance with Hong Kong law and accounting rules (its principal place of business is situated in Kowloon). Its regstered office is in Bermuda and KPMG are its auditors. So little need for speculation - most of the information about the company's Directors, its summarised accounts, and its bankers are freely available on the 'net. Bachmann Europe is a wholly owned subsidiary of Kader Holdings Co Ltd and has an issued share capital (2012 figures) of £2,050,000 in £1 shares - of this £2,049,998 is owned by Kader Holdings, 1 share by Kondux International Ltd, and 1 share by a UK Director of Bachmann Europe; again the information is freely available on the 'net. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 .... it really doesn't help that everyone wants their new model on sale in December. ...or indeed yesterday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted May 25, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2014 If the 'rumours' are to be believed then we are in deep doo doos as far as our hobby is concerned. I know it has been said many times before but one day someone will wake and bring back production of British outline to our shores before it is lost. I would rather have fewer models at higher prices than none at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 If the 'rumours' are to be believed then we are in deep doo doos as far as our hobby is concerned. I know it has been said many times before but one day someone will wake and bring back production of British outline to our shores before it is lost. I would rather have fewer models at higher prices than none at all. ....or the resurrection of the kit industry? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted May 25, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2014 If the 'rumours' are to be believed then we are in deep doo doos as far as our hobby is concerned. I know it has been said many times before but one day someone will wake and bring back production of British outline to our shores before it is lost. I would rather have fewer models at higher prices than none at all. I think you are correct. The Hornby situation and the Bachmann price increases I think are dramatically going to change the market. As I posted in the Bachmann Prices thread I can see the model railway market splitting into High/medium fidelity models priced increasingly more expensively and a second tier for the trainset market, with a huge differential between them. For those who say it will never happen its cheaper to produce in China, well not at 20% pay increases per year, and if you can't get any models out of there its irrelevent anyway! Don't Peco and Dapol do some assembly in UK? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Not sure if 20% increases in labour costs year-on-year are likely or inevitable, but the politics around various RTR model train-capable factories, with local taxes and so on, are just as important. As is management and planning and 'business relationships. Also the usual things like staff training, Chinese New Year, production-run volumes, raw materials, shipping costs, and then the increase in the cost of labour for assembly may represent a likely increase of around 20% for this year ..and maybe something near that in future years depending on volumes, demand, transport and so on. In other words, it's not just labour cost, but a mix of many things. I haven't stated that very well, and it's no comfort to we buyers. One trend which I see is the number of small UK traders or artisans who can customise RTR models profitably is possibly going up, adding about £40-£80 for weathering and detailing to custom, but they need a good model to start with at well under £100. The basic manufacturing is not going to happen soon in the UK. In my opinion. Nor will basic models be supplied with extensive 'fit-your-own' detailing packs, as many of these are left off not because they are hard to fit, but because they make packaging harder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 25, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2014 Not sure if 20% increases in labour costs year-on-year are likely or inevitable, but the politics around various RTR model train-capable factories, with local taxes and so on, are just as important. As is management and planning and 'business relationships. Also the usual things like staff training, Chinese New Year, production-run volumes, raw materials, shipping costs, and then the increase in the cost of labour for assembly may represent a likely increase of around 20% for this year ..and maybe something near that in future years depending on volumes, demand, transport and so on. In other words, it's not just labour cost, but a mix of many things. I haven't stated that very well, and it's no comfort to we buyers. One trend which I see is the number of small UK traders or artisans who can customise RTR models profitably is possibly going up, adding about £40-£80 for weathering and detailing to custom, but they need a good model to start with at well under £100. The basic manufacturing is not going to happen soon in the UK. In my opinion. Nor will basic models be supplied with extensive 'fit-your-own' detailing packs, as many of these are left off not because they are hard to fit, but because they make packaging harder. I think you're pretty much on the money with those comments Rob. Chinese production costs will no doubt rise and various staffing difficulties will probably continue although it might help if the UK 'manufacturers' set out to really nurture their Chinese suppliers and give them steady workstreams and guaranteed income budgets (although that doesn't seem to have helped Bachmann over come the Kader problems of course although some of that is inevitably 'special circumstances' over the past year). As for coming back to the UK I suppose it could possibly happen and we already have a good example of how it would affect prices and quantities although admittedly we are only looking at a 'small supplier'. Even with mass production it seems fairly certain that UK manufacture would have to be very much along 'design even cleverer' lines (i.e even more moulded detail and fewer separate parts) and result in the better part of £100 going onto the retail price. All of which would possibly constrain the money available for buyers to add detail or pay detailers/relivery experts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 .....Nor will basic models be supplied with extensive 'fit-your-own' detailing packs, as many of these are left off not because they are hard to fit, but because they make packaging harder. It doesn't seem to have caused the American models much of a problem - Kato, Stewart Hobbies, etc. come stuffed to the gunwales with separate sprues of detailing parts, all included in the box, ready for you to add. Same goes for the Euro outline stock from Roco, BEMO, etc. - a lot of them come with fit-your-own detail parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted May 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2014 We certainly face a worrying time in our hobby. There are so many variables regarding quality, production runs, choice of models etc. The only certainty is rising prices which will inevitably affect purchasing power. In 2000 the Merchant Navies heralded what for many years has been a golden era of models. Sadly we are facing the crunch and manufacturers as well as us enthusiasts have difficult choices to make. I would love to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel, but at present that tunnel is dark and long. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Perhaps we can look forward to going back to the creative, rewarding, cutting, gluing, filing, drilling and soldering years, rather than the "golden" years of exchanging more and more gold for mass produced plastic instant copies? Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted May 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2014 .To that end Andy I have built two Parkside hopper kits over the weekend and enjoyed it immensely, I am now looking forward to weathering them to my own spec. I now have several projects on the go which require cutting, glueing, soldering, filing and drilling, and you know what? It is a weight off my shoulders, going back to the roots of the hobby instead of worrying about my next RTR purchase. If we support all the small BRITISH cottage industries we can still enjoy the hobby knowing we are supporting the manufacturing base that is in this country Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.