British Modular System - the initial ideas and debates

[Kenton]

 

If each of us so far in SECAG expressing an interest follow through with it and can make a meet in our area, building just two 4ft long boards each... thats 48ft already.

Two 4ft boards ! heck I thought I was signing up for one 8ft one

[cromptonnut]

If that's acceptable in the standards Kenton, and you can transport it, I'm sure we can fit it in. I drive a Fiesta so I am rather restricted in board sizes.

[Talltim]

Hi all,

 

A follow up to my previous postings…

 

As I said, I have experienced the process and thoughts that is gone through when deciding about following a particular standard.

 

In particular with freemo – we went through a painful and extended process that got the group I was in totally disheartened from being very interested.

 

In the end – the group broke up as it wasn’t possible to work with the freemo standards as they were/are.

It seemed that every time we came up with a change that we felt was needed to either improve the operation of or the standards themselves – we hit a brick wall.

 

One of the things we wanted to change was for curved boards to incorporate a degree of transition from the straight modules into the curve sections.

 

As part of this we would have needed to increase the track spacing at the board ends and into the curves to allow for longer stock and for improved visual looks when using them.

 

We came to grief over this as we were met with a blanket response of ‘no you can’t do that – you have the standards and you just need to work within them’.

 

This was the point at which we just gave up on the idea and moved onto other things.

 

As per my recent response – Scottish Modellers are now looking to establish a set of standards for our current and future layouts.

 

If anyone is interested I can post up the initial ideas we had about this - on a seperate thread so as not to hijack this one.

 

Thanks

I have to say I'm a bit confused by this. I can't see the problem with increasing the double track spacing AND keeping to a standard for the ends. It requires a bit more length, but is perfectly possible.You just do the increase within the curve module, not on the module next to it.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Talltim

[PaulRhB]

Your board can be as long as you like but when you get to 40+ ft you might want to supply a list of halls big enough

Don't forget corner boards so if your favourite station was on a curve use that as an idea rather than straightening it

[Steve-e]

 

Statement 2

 

"I think matching scenery is very important, we should have specific ground covers, and we should also use a non-flat

to better reflect the UK's varied scenery"

 

Please use "agree" or "disagree" as you see fit.

 

I didn't get this question so could not comment the bit i am querying is the bit that says we should use a non flat end profile It would have been better if it said include a non flat end profile as you could use flat for stations etc and non flat for cuttings etc... Unless I have missed something.

[FelixM]

I took it that Glorious NSE asked whether there should be other end profiles too besides the flat profile.

 

Felix

[Steve-e]

That's what I was thinking so It maybe would have been better to say Include a non flat end plate as the wording seems to suggest we use a non flat and nothing else.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Nes

[Talltim]

Here's an example of a module I'm planning, although at my rate of building it might be done by the time my three year old son leaves home.

Yes, its a US protoype, to the Freemo specs, but I think it show how un-limiting working to a standard can be. To pick up on some points from the thread

Curved station

Changing baseboard widths

Double and single track ends. I didn't find it a constraint making the track be in the centre of the end, rather, placed the track and centred the end on it.

Double track spacing widening on curves

Lawrence by ta||tim, on Flickr

 

BTW, I'm not suggesting that something like this is a suitable first module for anyone, especially me!

Edited July 20, 2014 by Talltim

[kevinlms]

Here's an example of a module I'm planning, although at my rate of building it might be done by the time my three year old son leaves home.

Yes, its a US protoype, to the Freemo specs, but I think it show how un-limiting working to a standard can be. To pick up on some points from the thread

Curved station

Changing baseboard widths

Double and single track ends. I didn't find it a constraint making the track be in the centre of the end, rather, placed the track and centred the end on it.

Double track spacing widening on curves

Lawrence by ta||tim, on Flickr

Looks good, a nightmare to transport though? In the sense of very wasteful of space.

[FelixM]

Looks good, a nightmare to transport though? In the sense of very wasteful of space.

 

Not necessarily. The two single line extreme ends seem to fit well on top of each other if turned face-to-face. Same could apply to the other 5 boards.

 

I just fear that with the board joins as drawn it will be difficult / impossible to lengthen the platforms if at some future time longer passenger trains are demanded by the group.

 

Me was planning a (near to) scale model of Lowestoft station including Coke Ovens Junction which would total at ~40 ft length. I halted the project though because of some "quality assurance" work with existing modules, raising too tight radii and so on.

 

Kind regards

Felix

[Talltim]

Looks good, a nightmare to transport though? In the sense of very wasteful of space.

Yes. the way I saw it as I would need to hire a van anyway as my wife wouldn't let me have the car all weekend, so I'd just have to hire a transit sized one for this. Edited July 20, 2014 by Talltim

[Steve-e]

Here's an example of a module I'm planning, although at my rate of building it might be done by the time my three year old son leaves home.

Yes, its a US protoype, to the Freemo specs, but I think it show how un-limiting working to a standard can be. To pick up on some points from the thread

Curved station

Changing baseboard widths

Double and single track ends. I didn't find it a constraint making the track be in the centre of the end, rather, placed the track and centred the end on it.

Double track spacing widening on curves

Lawrence by ta||tim, on Flickr

 

BTW, I'm not suggesting that something like this is a suitable first module for anyone, especially me!

Do you get the board laser cut/water cut? There is an interesting article in the latest BRM magazine which would suit the shape.

 

 

Cheers

[FelixM]

Yes, Dutch_Master, what you write is totally correct. It is up to the module builder to determine hown long his platforms will be because it's not that each express train is required to stop at every rural or suburban halt. In the future the layout builder may want to let longer trains call at his station if train length grows over the time.

 

I don't know why you came with your own club as an example for ??? but if you ascribe domination or whatever to me then you are once again wrong.

 

Felix

[Talltim]

I just fear that with the board joins as drawn it will be difficult / impossible to lengthen the platforms if at some future time longer passenger trains are demanded by the group.

Then tough luck to the group

I think thats just a language/translation thing- demanded=would like. The group wouldn't force longer trains and platforms, they would just like to run longer trains and its up to the module owners how to manage that, whether its an extension or just letting most of the coaches stop off the platform (or on short modules, off the end of the module!#0. At the moment the existing Freemo modules with passenger facilities can handle about five or six cars, which fits in my platforms too.

[Gerald Henriksen]

 Not where I am sitting. Martyn is saying a very precise end plate (even profile) MUST be used - only those using that specification will be allowed in his module group. So must be a proscribed width and track in the middle.

 

FelixM is saying anyone can join in as long as it connects. So any width and track position variable.

 

Although I take your point about adding an interface board, I think this is completely NOT essential. All you are doing is forcing everyone to comply with Martyn's view of the module world. That might be a nice thing to have but is not a standard.

 

My proposed 25.3 inch module end with the track at 11 inches from the front will connect to FelixM's world (because of the attitude that we will make it work) but not to Martyn's world as he doesn't want anyone who does not comply to his rigid end plate standard.

 

Like anything where a standard is diverged from, it depends.

 

In your example above, it can sort of work.  Your track is close enough to the centre of the module that if interfacing to an 18" standard you would only have a 2" and 5" difference on either side of the joint which wouldn't be bad.  This is of course very different from what you seemed to be implying earlier when you wanted the track at the joint only 2" from the edge.  

 

It would of course be even better if you were able to angle in the edges of your module near the end to make it match whatever standard is chosen as this would ensure things look better if your module was ever used in a public exhibition as opposed to a private operating type session.

[PaulRhB]

Different length platforms are common and people are just told to sit in the correct part of the train it's easier in modern trains as you can lock the doors to stop them falling out of the wrong doors! My own layout will only accommodate 3 coaches so that's the traffic you send down the branch, probably two coach push pull

Tims layout offers lots of options for connections though. Imagine a British version serving a couple of industries or connections to other branches. An industry module can be a foot or two long and terminate a branch or unused junctions. Think the classic GWR branch with the dairy just beyond the station.

Other classic scenes can make good intermediate modules, the Cornish branches classic embankment over an estuary, the S&D viaducts, even the Highland line rocky hillsides and lochs if you make mini transition modules on the ends ( unless a range of ends are picked )

Edited July 22, 2014 by PaulRhB

[Andy Y]

Thanks for everyone’s input to the topic so far. It’s apparent to me that to encourage participation that any ‘standards’ should be as relaxed as possible encouraging ‘modules’ (as in a distinct section of contribution to the greater whole) which can be used at home, as a standalone exhibit or as part of a modular meet.

 

What someone does within their module needs to be relaxed rather than too prescriptive but we do need to make sure there are some areas of commonality are presented to enable the models to be joined together. This also means that there’s a place for plain track (straight or curved sections) and functional junctions rather than just stand-alone exhibits and we need a ‘standard’ which encourages participation with simple but immensely useful boards.

 

Initially I had thought that a standardised end boards with bolt holes, electrical holes etc would have been the way to go I can see from the Freemo approach that this would limit the participation of some and even if end boards were technically precise it wouldn’t mean the railhead is absolutely in the correct place.

 

 

Absolutes

 

Gauge – OO, suggest Peco Code 75 as the maximum code with any variations being 'compatible' at the module joints.

 

Floor to rail height – suggest 45” as a reasonable figure workable for as many people as possible and inclusive of existing Freemo work.

 

Height adjustment - - suggest +/- 1” either side of the Floor to rail height measurement

 

End boards at module joints – Of sufficient thickness (suggest 9mm) and depth (suggest 4”) to enable modules to be clamped or bolted together.

 

Rail centres at module joints – Double track modules to have track centres at 50mm to match Peco.

 

Track ends - all track joins at end of the module should be at 90 degrees to the board end.

 

Track Bus – A common standard for interlinking modules, suggestion of 3.5mm phono leads and sockets. revised to 4mm banana plug/sockets -

 

Control System – A module must be wired for, or be compatible with, DCC control.

 

Point/Signal control – A module operator should maintain and provide a means of local control (via DC or DCC) of all points and signals if used to enable operation through from an adjacent module.

 

Clearances – All modules should ensure the following clearances are met.

 

 

Recommendations

 

Board widths at module joints – Matching board widths encourages uniformity of appearance – suggest 18” width, if a ‘module’ is wider or narrower than this it should be ‘blended’ to match at the module joint.

Track centres – if a centre point of the 18” wide board is taken for the track centre this will encourage modules which can be used both ways round in a gathered meeting. For double track module joints the twin track formation (with 50mm centres) should centred on the 18” width.

 

Board landscape at module joints – whilst creativity of cuttings, embankments, tunnels, viaducts etc should be encouraged it would be helpful to return the ground level to that of the track base at the module joint.

 

So, if the above presents a workable approach it’s a case of tweaking any of the measured elements based on sound advice and then hopefully move forward to getting some content built or adapted and working out when it’s worth a suitable collective getting together.

 

Just don’t ask me about electrical and computer bits!

 

I've tried to keep it simple and inclusive, creating technically exact specifications is unlikely to get modellers to start with the concept but if standards for particular items is needed it could be addressed on a need basis by and with the consensus of those partaking.

 

Off to consider something like Boscarne Junction as a useful junction 'module'.

[PaulRhB]

Thanks Andy, what size phono socket are you thinking? There are two common sizes

Can you tie it down to a specific one and would it be sockets on the boards with double ended male jump leads?

Edited July 20, 2014 by PaulRhB

[Andy Y]

Thanks Andy, what size phono socket are you thinking? There are two common sizes

 

Sorry, I did mean (but didn't type) 3.5mm.

[Steve-e]

Thanks for getting us started Andy just a couple of questions?

 

1. Are there any scenery standards to observe at the module ends as in colour , ballast etc?

 

2. Are there any baseboard/endplate/leg kits out there that fit these standards?

 

Many Thanks

Steve

Edited July 20, 2014 by Nes

[PaulRhB]

To give the +- inch / 50mm adjustable feet available on eBay and Amazon much cheaper than some of the specialist ones sold for baseboards. I just added M8 T nuts from B&Q. Mine cost £17.50 for 8 compared to £6 to £8 a pair at various shows.

[Stubby47]

So that's it, that's your proposal ?

25 pages of ideas, discussions, side-taking, arguing, people getting upset, people getting angry, no mention of OLE, no mention of era, of livery, of loco style, nothing about ballast colour, grass colour, grass length even, time of year, part of the country.....

 

I could go on, but I have to ask a fundamental, important question - who's making the fiddle yards ?

Edited July 20, 2014 by Stubby47

[peter220950]

 

Absolutes

 

Track Bus – A common standard for interlinking modules, suggestion of 3.5mm phono leads and sockets.

 

Brilliant, at last something to start building to!

 

Without wishing to be the first smatrtar*e to want to change things, can you clarify the use of phono plugs and sockets as if modules are rotated through 180 degrees I would think you might change polarity on the track?

 

I had assumed you would have a banana plug and socket on each end which when reversed would still carry the correct power through each rail? - Or have I just had too much to drink???

[PaulRhB]

Thanks for getting us started Andy just a couple of questions?

 

1. Are there any scenery standards to observe at the module ends as in colour , ballast etc?

 

2. Are there any baseboard/endplate/leg kits out there that fit these standards?

 

Many Thanks

Steve

I'd ask Tim Horn if he'd be interested in cutting some or pop down your B&Q superstore and ask the nice people on the wood saw to cut you some 100mm strips from a 9mm ply sheet. Nominally it's 5 free cuts but if you go at quiet times they will do 7-8 free and you could get the board tops from the same sheet

[Andy Y]

Brilliant, at last something to start building to!

 

Without wishing to be the first smatrtar*e to want to change things, can you clarify the use of phono plugs and sockets as if modules are rotated through 180 degrees I would think you might change polarity on the track?

 

I had assumed you would have a banana plug and socket on each end which when reversed would still carry the correct power through each rail? - Or have I just had too much to drink???

 

Not withstanding that we need to establish a convention for which rail is red and which is 'black' using one rail to the red phono socket and the other to the black socket (white lead) then reversal can be catered for.

 

Bananas would be equally fine so it's down to discussion and decision, just trying to keep it simple using most widely available components.