British Modular System - the initial ideas and debates

[kevinlms]

Personally I like the idea of "double sided viewing, no backscene"

PaulRhB's photos show several modules, where clearly they're designed to be viewed from one side only (blue sided modules) - perhaps built for home use in a shed/spare room? Others are clearly available for either side viewing. The silo module could have a rotatable back scene. Both methods have their merits, which is the point I'm making.

[Suzie]

The use of either phono plugs or 3.5mm jack plugs should be avoided for various reasons:-

 

1. They are normally used as low level signal connectors and therefore not intended for high current use. DCC on a modular set up will typically be using 5A boosters.

 

2. Being very cheap consumer grade products most are of variable quality and likely to fail (especially jacks - most are a weak riveted construction).

 

3. Any pre-made leads will have inadequate wire size.

 

4. Jack plugs short when being plugged in.

 

5. Jack plugs come in 2-pole and 3-pole versions that are not particularly compatible with one another.

 

6. Jack plugs tend to not be capable of taking sensible sized wires.

 

7. Jack plugs are not reversible so crossover cables would have to be used between modules which are not always easy to wire.

 

To that end 4mm banana plugs will be much more sensible and both already popular and readily available. They are a similar size to 3.5mm jack plugs and smaller than phonos but designed for the job of high current interconnection. I would favour the use of Speakon connectors as being inexpensive, robust, having big screw terminals and positive latching but I suspect there will be some resistance to the use of a connector that is unfamiliar to most even though it will make connecting up on the day a foolproof doddle. If bananas are used the colours should be the same for the two wires of each bus. It will be confusing to plug red to black in some cases and red to red in others, just make the track bus all red. Through wiring of a separate accessory bus using a different colour will be a good idea as a recommended practice since many people will have DCC accessories.

 

Wire size through a module for the bus needs to be a sensible size and 0.25mm² is totally inadequate. 2.5mm² will be more suitable and is readily available. The DCC track signal may need to go a considerable distance from the booster to the loco and anything that creates either voltage drop or increases the impedance of the track supply must be avoided. This is a UK module spec and it must be appreciated that some people are likely to be using decoders from the likes of ESU, Bachman and Hornby that do not like voltage spikes - big voltage spikes are likely at the end of a long run of thin cable if a short circuit occurs. 0.25mm² cable will have a resistance of about 4 Ohms to a module only 30' from the booster, far too much resistance such that if a short occurs the booster will not even see a 5A load!

 

Live frog points must be specified if Peco track is to be used. There is no difference in the wiring so no reason not to use live frog points, but plenty of reasons not to use dead frogs (especially Peco 'Insulfrog'). Again this is a UK module spec so the foibles of the poor pickup quality of many UK locos needs to be considered unless a ban on non-bogie and asymmetric pickup tender drive locos is to prevail.

 

It has to be remembered that when building a module it has to work for everyone, not just a limited range of stock on a small layout.

 

Minimum radius must be specified. I suspect that the forthcoming APT-E will be the most challenging piece of stock to accommodate. 50mm track spacing at module ends has been specified but minimum radius and track spacing on curves needs to be specified too. It will be sensible to specify a large radius to start with as it can always be relaxed later if no one builds any modules with curves or points. If we are talking Peco track the curve of a large radius point might make a sensible starting point so that anyone providing stock will know where they stand.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Suzie

[PaulRhB]

PaulRhB's photos show several modules, where clearly they're designed to be viewed from one side only (blue sided modules) - perhaps built for home use in a shed/spare room? Others are clearly available for either side viewing. The silo module could have a rotatable back scene. Both methods have their merits, which is the point I'm making.

Steve's photo shows my not quite finished U shape layout with the nearly finished buildings open at the back. They will be blanked off and if you look closely you'll see they are on different sides so if you stand in the middle you will have some back to you and others opposite

The cement silo was the only module with a backscene on as it's part of the RS Tower layout too. If you do want a backscene at home consider having it removable as it's easier if people can pass both sides rather than having to duck under or walk all the way round if your train happens to work diverging lines on the backscene side.

[kevinlms]

No, I got that bit, it was what I had always assumed to be the logical way to plug and socket things together, it was the concept of a 'standard' making one rail black, and the other red which wouldn't work when you reverse the module that I couldn't follow.

 

I think it's now moved on to two sockets at each end and jack plug jumpers, which means the red/black can be established by the jumpers and track wiring colour under the individual module isn't relevant to the 'whole' layout.

The concept of 'Red & Black' on a DCC layout is confusing on a module capable of being reversed, because DCC is a specialised form of AC. Although I understand the reason WHY its commonly thought that way. Also that its easy to buy suitable cable, identified as red & black.

 

When an organiser plans out a system of reversible modules, does he/she determine which is 'front' or 'back' of each module, so that module owners can be given a plan, which incorporates which way the bus is to be connected?

[PaulRhB]

As Andy said the electrical bits aren't his speciality I'll ask him if we can revise that absolute.

[Andy Y]

As Andy said the electrical bits aren't his speciality I'll ask him if we can revise that absolute.

 

No problem with that, will place a revision.

[Talltim]

The way I see it, colour coding for wires is purely for the module builder's convenience. If you have two separate connectors, one for each 'polarity' then you just link modules by connecting the same sides together and ignore colours. It does get far more complicated if you just use one multi-way connector, such as a jack.

[Talltim]

I hope all of the modules use electric - live steam would be interesting though...

How about a Ffestiniog style gravity setup? Tall module builders build the quarry and short ones the port...

[roundhouse]

The way I see it, colour coding for wires is purely for the module builder's convenience. If you have two separate connectors, one for each 'polarity' then you just link modules by connecting the same sides together and ignore colours. It does get far more complicated if you just use one multi-way connector, such as a jack.

 

Thats what I have done.

 

I actually have the banana plug sockets built into the layout one red one black as thats how the pair came from Maplins. All you need ot do is orientate the plugs to suit the adjacent board. The banana plug leads from Maplins are cheap. I lost one set of mine at the meet (should have put my initials on them) but they are so cheap it doesn't really matter. However this might be a good reason to hard wire in one end of the cables as the cable will connect to each other anyway.

 

With regards wifi, yes there can be signal problems as happened ot us at a couple of shows but after I changed the channel number away from the default its been fine ever since. As mentioned earlier though its not really an issue as there's normally enough wired controllers aronud either from the person organising the DCC set up or others hwo have the same system at home. The people organising will need to make those aware attending what system is being prorposed and if further handset will be required depending on how many modules and operators will be there.

 

Tallking of which, maybe there needs to be a set of guidelines (I say guildlines rather than rules) so that any potential modular meet organisers know what ot do the first itme round.

[Talltim]

I've been through the whole thread twice to find this link that Felix posted because I really liked it.

 

The basis for the arrangement of modules is a series of spirals. All different sorts of curve radii and angles. It fills the room pretty efficiently, but definitely isn't straight parallel aisles. Mind, you, its a bit of a walk if you are in the middle and you need the loo!

The US Freemo setups tend to be more angular and spikey, because people like building diamond crossing modules, but they aren't very common in the UK (maybe one of the reasons UK based US modeller like them?)

Edited July 21, 2014 by Talltim

[PaulRhB]

Ok Andy has revised to banana plugs and Maplin sell ready made jump leads too.
Sockets examples N33AP to N37AP
Patch leads with two plugs ready to use ZB25C any colours will do
Individual plugs for those who want to make their own also available.

 

Here's a diagram following the same principle as we used at Armitage that worked well and is totally reversible.

 

THE COLOURS DON'T MATTER

 

 

The diagram is basically a copy of that provided by GloriousNSE, so thanks are due to Martyn.

Edited July 21, 2014 by PaulRhB

[Satan's Goldfish]

once  all these are thrashed out Andy, is there going to be somewhere we can 'quick reference' to for the standards and recommendations? I already can't remember which page your commandments were on!

 

Edit: full of all the nice useful pretty pictures like the one above!

Edited July 21, 2014 by Satan's Goldfish

[PaulRhB]

The people organising will need to make those aware attending what system is being prorposed and if further handset will be required depending on how many modules and operators will be there.

 

Tallking of which, maybe there needs to be a set of guidelines (I say guildlines rather than rules) so that any potential modular meet organisers know what to do the first itme round.

Yes some guidelines would be good and they basically need to just say what control system will be powering it so those with the same system can bring additional throttles. Finding someone with a sufficiently big DCC system with boosters might be hard for some groups so it is something to consider that if you want to organise a meet find a control system with some boosters to work it first

I'll talk to Neil who organised the electric for the USA meet as to how he wired it up, I think it was three power districts so we can write a guide to what you need.

I have a 3 amp dcc system with a (up to 8 amp) booster but it requires wireless so I will look into the xpressnet or whatever it's called to see if that could form the basis of a control system using other makes handsets too as I'm happy to add a couple of smaller boosters to my collection to enable a meet.

 

So my initial thought for Individual meeting guidelines would be.

How big a DCC system do you need and who will supply it?

 

What era(s) will be run - does it need splitting up into times during the meet say 6 hours each?

 

What couplings will be specified for stock, plus any exceptions that can be accomodated or just to ask if they can, (ie three links acceptable on fixed rakes)

Edited July 21, 2014 by PaulRhB

[roundhouse]

Yes some guidelines would be good and they basically need to just say what control system will be powering it so those with the same system can bring additional throttles. Finding someone with a sufficiently big DCC system with boosters might be hard for some groups so it is something to consider that if you want to organise a meet find a control system with some boosters to work it first

I'll talk to Neil who organised the electric for the USA meet as to how he wired it up, I think it was three power districts so we can write a guide to what you need.

I have a 3 amp dcc system with a (up to 8 amp) booster but it requires wireless so I will look into the xpressnet or whatever it's called to see if that could form the basis of a control system using other makes handsets too as I'm happy to add a couple of smaller boosters to my collection to enable a meet.

 

So my initial thought for Individual meeting guidelines would be.

How big a DCC system do you need and who will supply it?

 

What era(s) will be run - does it need splitting up into times during the meet say 6 hours each?

 

What couplings will be specified for stock, plus any exceptions that can be accomodated or just to ask if they can, (ie three links acceptable on fixed rakes)

Also what make of DCC as some meets might decide to use Digitrax, NCE etc. depending on those organising, likely to attend etc etc.

 

Yes dedicated location on the web for all the info is a good idea.

[Stubby47]

If you use DCC locos....

a ) what if the same loco is used by more than one participant (and has the same DCC address) ?

b ) do the CV settings (performance profile) vary according to the control system used ?

c) are DCC address compatible over different control systems ?

d) are sound locos affected by non-sound control systems ?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Stubby47

[cromptonnut]

Stubby, I'm far from a DCC expert but my understanding is:

 

a) you would need to change the address on one of the locos - a couple of clicks on most systems and easily doable, or just don't run both locos at the same time.

b) they shouldn't.

c) depends whether the chips are configured for 2 digit (short) or 4 digit (long) addresses; some older systems only work with short addresses.  But number can be changed easily.

d) makes no difference with sound or not sound.  There is no such thing as a 'non sound control system' as the controller operates the chip's functions.  f1 typically is "sound on or off" and other functions such as horns on other functions.  Sound fitted locos work just fine with sound turned off.

[PaulRhB]

If you submitted the locos in advance any clashes can be sorted out at home before you go. If one person struggles programming you could arrange to have someone else do it during setup

Similarly a loco can be set to a 4 digit address if needed using a simple online cv calculator and then switched off equally quickly. DCC long address

Switch on long address in cv29 (by adding 32 to existing value on ESU)

 

Then use this website

 

Long decimal address calculator

 

http://www.ruppweb.org/Xray/comp/decoder.htm

 

To revert to 2 digit address subtract the same value you added to cv29

Edited July 21, 2014 by PaulRhB

[bxmoore]

Many people, including myself, prefer to take their own locomotive(s) to use when running on a modular set-up.  Firstly, you're familiar with what buttons control which functions (lights, horn/whistle etc), and secondly, the loco is set up the way you like to drive it, in respect of momentum delay, acceleration, speed curve etc. 

 

Others don't mind so much, but for me, it increases the pleasure using something you've worked on yourself (perhaps including re-spray, detailing etc), and seeing and hearing it operate in new environments, doing a "real" job.

 

With freight stock, it's different, as they will, depending on type, possibly be scattered across the whole set-up as the car-forwarding scheme you use will order them onto trains and to various destinations.  One of the pleasures of this type of operation is that you get to haul lots of various stuff that's new to you, brought by different owners.

 

Brian

[Kenton]

 

There is of course no reason that 90 degree tight curves need to be fully scenic and visible; you could easily hide 'setrack curves' (or whatever the minimum radius is settled at) in a module designed as a tunnel, for example.

Indeed - no reason why any module has to be fully sceniced - bring on that proposal for a straight tunnel with a windmill on top or the dust bowl of the US - flat earth coloured as far as the eye can see prototype, or water everywhere ala Somerset Levels. This is about operation isn't it ?

[cromptonnut]

I might just drill some holes in a bucket, put a section of drainpipe through it, seal up the holes around the drainpipe then stick a piece of flexitrack through the drainpipe.  Fill the bucket with water when I get there, hey presto a Channel Tunnel module.

[The Stationmaster]

 

Indeed - no reason why any module has to be fully sceniced - bring on that proposal for a straight tunnel with a windmill on top or the dust bowl of the US - flat earth coloured as far as the eye can see prototype, or water everywhere ala Somerset Levels. This is about operation isn't it ?

Nothing new in the world Kenton - I've already done a tunnel module, it has appeared at Taunton ever since we started the modular layout but has gradually gained a sort of (relatively mild) shunting puzzle on top of the hill through which the tunnel passes

[Kenton]

 

Sound fitted locos work just fine with sound turned off.

In fact they will work much better AFAIC

 

Andy - any chance of breaking out the "what needs to be done to organise a module meet" from the rest of this topic? Some of us have very little or any experience knowledge to contribute on such matters - and it will get about as lost as your proposed absolutes/recommends have become.

[Kenton]

 

FYI: Andy's proposals are on page 25

Fine - but that snippet of info will only get lost again when the topic page turns. A new (locked) post in a new forum is what is being asked for - so everyone can find it. Possibly the same new forum (like what was done for RMWeb Challenges) so module makers can start their own topics to follow/develop/bat ideas of their module(s) around.

 

I'm sure that there may well be a few track/layout planners out there who will not sign up to actually build one but who could offer ideas and encouragement to those that do. Some modules are bound to fall by the wayside for any number of reasons but a coherent place of proposed/part completed/operational/used modules could well provide the event organisers some sort of catalogue of available British Modules from which to pick/invite/ignore.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Kenton

[McRuss]

To avoid double or tripple DCC adresses for locomotives at FREMO. The FREMO groups have someone

who manage the DCC adresses for the group. Usually when you need an adress for your loco, you contact him

and he usually gives you an number block of ten adresses. E.g. 1000 to 1009.

Usually at FREMO there are only 4 digit DCC adresses used.

 

Markus

[Andy Y]

 Fine - but that snippet of info will only get lost again when the topic page turns. A new (locked) post in a new forum is what is being asked for - so everyone can find it. Possibly the same new forum (like what was done for RMWeb Challenges) so module makers can start their own topics to follow/develop/bat ideas of their module(s) around.

 

I'm sure that there may well be a few track/layout planners out there who will not sign up to actually build one but who could offer ideas and encouragement to those that do. Some modules are bound to fall by the wayside for any number of reasons but a coherent place of proposed/part completed/operational/used modules could well provide the event organisers some sort of catalogue of available British Modules from which to pick/invite/ignore.

 

We're getting towards the point, because there is interest in the project where I'll set up a separate sub-forum and we can create a 'standards' topic (locked as you say) but there's a couple more things to sort before we're quite ready.

 

It would then be worth having a thread to look at venues/dates etc and then everyone can have separate topics on module builds etc.