Fat Controller Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 This just appeared on the BBC News web-page:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28358137 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 More info in French here: http://www.larepubliquedespyrenees.fr/2014/07/17/denguin-des-blesses-dans-le-choc-de-deux-trains,1202320.php some of which contradicts what's on the BBC site, so I'll refrain from quoting either and see if a clearer picture emerges over time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 The pictures on the French site match the French description so it looks like the TER (Z7300) ran into the back of the TGV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 RFF's brief report on it here: http://www.rff.fr/fr/gestion-page-d-accueil/actualites/un-tgv-heurte-par-un-ter-a-lescar also says the same as the French site I linked to above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 I didn't link to the French sites, as they hadn't appeared before I headed off to work. One thing that did annoy me about the English-language coverage was that it was been described as a 'High-Speed Train crash' in France; whilst it was a TGV, it was running on a 'Classic' line. Perhaps it might have been represented more accurately by just having ' Train Crash in South-West France' in the headlight, and making reference to the involvement of the TGV in the text. http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2014/07/18/ce-que-l-on-sait-de-l-accident-de-train-pres-de-pau_1066137 was published about 45 minutes ago. From the text, it would appear that the TGV had reduced its speed because of a red signal, possibly linked to a heat-related track defect. Normal procedure here would be to stop, then continue at a reduced speed (Marche Prudente), defined by the signaller. Authority to pass the closed signal may have required a FREP (Franchissment du repere). The driver of the second train should have been informed by radio that there was a problem with a preceding train, and instructed to proceed with caution. The signaller would normally also make a General Call to all trains, advising of a problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 Further to my earlier posting, the BBC correspondent seems to have a poor command of logic and basic physics:- 'The BBC's Christian Fraser reports the TGV train had stopped briefly on its route and was moving again, though seemingly not at full speed, which may have prevented a much more serious accident.' The TER went into the back of the TGV... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The driver of the second train should have been informed by radio that there was a problem with a preceding train, and instructed to proceed with caution. The signaller would normally also make a General Call to all trains, advising of a problem. Presumably the driver of the TER would have had to pass at least one signal in order to collide with the TGV? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 Presumably the driver of the TER would have had to pass at least one signal in order to collide with the TGV? I would have thought so. However, there is no mention of a SPAD anywhere...Curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 What on earth did they make French EMU's out of, armour plate? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killybegs Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Further to my earlier posting, the BBC correspondent seems to have a poor command of logic and basic physics:- 'The BBC's Christian Fraser reports the TGV train had stopped briefly on its route and was moving again, though seemingly not at full speed, which may have prevented a much more serious accident.' The TER went into the back of the TGV... I think you are being a little harsh. Hitting the back of a moving train travelling in the same direction would be less damaging than hitting a stationary one. I think that you will find that the third part of the sentence refers back to the first part, not the second part of the sentence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Killybegs - the BBC article does state earlier in the article that the TGV hit the local train, which is incorrect, almost managing to imply that a stopped train hit a moving one. The whole BBC article gives the impression of a quick holding story to be updated by live updates - which then never happenned as a much bigger story (the Malaysian airliner shot down) popped up immediately afterwards... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 What on earth did they make French EMU's out of, armour plate? It's more what they make the extremities of TGVs out of- glass-reinforced plastic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 glass-reinforced plastic Good job they shoot all the birds before there's a chance of a strike, then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2014 It's more what they make the extremities of TGVs out of- glass-reinforced plastic? Can't see a problem with that Brian - the nose end of an HST is made of grp and having seen the consequences of one coming into hard contact with a concrete & stone stop block and the aftermath pics of one coming into head on contact with a Brush Type 4 (which had to have an entire new cab end structure) all i can say is that it is extemely tough stuff and it's a pity the paint can get scratched during such collisions. As for bird strikes they can be quite interesting with TGVs - I was in the cab of one from Le Mans to Paris some years ago and we had a bird strike at full speed, probably a blackbird (?), and the odd thing is that when we got to Paris it's body was still there but most of its feathers had gone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The error by the BBC might have been as simple as not knowning that SNCF runs on the left (mostly, including in this area) so assuming pictures of the damaged TGV on the left hand track and the damaged TER on the right-hand implied that the former hit the latter. One of the pictures of the TGV cab, not in any of the links above as far as I can see, shows the structure destroyed at least as far back as the triangular side windows which have been "flattened" by turning through nearly 90 degrees to face the direction of travel. These are, I think, roughly alongside the driver's desk and it must be questionable whether the driver would have survived had this been the leading cab. The TER cab, by contrast, is relatively little distorted and the driver's survival space would appear not to be compromised. Edit: Photos on another forum seem to show that the cab of the TGV has been pushed back bodily so the survival space is probably intact. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1857358#post1857358 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheffield Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I find the BBC is not a lot better than the rest of the media these days. It sounds much better to say a High Speed Train has run in to another, rather than the other way round. Especially when the BBC seems biased against HS2. Remember, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 http://www.lexpress.fr/actualites/1/actualite/collision-de-trains-a-pau-le-systeme-de-signalisation-etait-en-maintenance_1560278.html seems to be the latest posting from a newspaper on Google.fr It would appear that the TGV had stopped at a closed signal, and had been authorised to pass it at Marche Prudente (30 kph being the speed specified for this in the relevant procedure); the question remains as to why the TER doesn't seem to have reduced its speed similarily, as it should have encountered a closed signal itself. The second paragraph, which appears to suggest that the trains were on a section of single track, seems at variance with both the RFF map of the area, and the aerial photo on Google Maps. These both indicate that the line is double track. In the fullness of time, we'll be sent a copy of the BEA-TT report; I'll post the link here. Incidentally, if you look at Google Maps, you'll see factory sites nearby with yellow heaps around them; this is sulphur, which is extracted locally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 19, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 19, 2014 http://www.lexpress.fr/actualites/1/actualite/collision-de-trains-a-pau-le-systeme-de-signalisation-etait-en-maintenance_1560278.html seems to be the latest posting from a newspaper on Google.fr It would appear that the TGV had stopped at a closed signal, and had been authorised to pass it at Marche Prudente (30 kph being the speed specified for this in the relevant procedure); the question remains as to why the TER doesn't seem to have reduced its speed similarily, as it should have encountered a closed signal itself. The second paragraph, which appears to suggest that the trains were on a section of single track, seems at variance with both the RFF map of the area, and the aerial photo on Google Maps. These both indicate that the line is double track. In the fullness of time, we'll be sent a copy of the BEA-TT report; I'll post the link here. Incidentally, if you look at Google Maps, you'll see factory sites nearby with yellow heaps around them; this is sulphur, which is extracted locally. The TER could have quite legitimately passed at danger the signal in rear of the TGV - if it was a signal where that procedure is authorised. So a SPAD might not have been involved although something else would have. It will be interesting to hear what the Report has to tell us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 The TER could have quite legitimately passed at danger the signal in rear of the TGV - if it was a signal where that procedure is authorised. So a SPAD might not have been involved although something else would have. It will be interesting to hear what the Report has to tell us. He might well have passed the signal in rear of the TGV; however, it would appear that he did so at speeds somewhat in excess of the normal speed in these circumstances. My understanding is that, when passing a 'franchissable' signal, a train must proceed at 'marche a vue' until advised to the contrary; 'marche a vue' is, unusually for SNCF, not defined as an exact speed, but simply as being a speed that allows the driver to stop short of an obstruction. This it would be higher on a straight length of track in the Landes, than on a sinuous line in the Vosges. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted July 20, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 20, 2014 On newspaper wording: papers over here have been using the words "train wreck" or "train crash" to refer to a train which ran into a film crew which were on a bridge without permission. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Pau is nowhere near an LGV so 'high speed train' is irrelevant to the story. This would appear to be a signaling fault on a lne occupied by different classes if train. I have been witness to several near misses on the Montpellier-Narbonne line which actually were well protected by signaling. They mostly involved level crossing incidents. These are hard to predict and hard to protect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 'Rats'... This was published yesterday:- http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2014/07/27/1925260-denguin-des-rongeurs-a-l-origine-de-la-collision-ferroviaire.html It would seem that the second train did not SPAD, rather that the signal protecting the rear of the TGV remained green, due to cable damage caused by rats chewing through the insulation. If this is true, then it is at least the second such incident where rats have been implicated; there was a fatal tail-end collision involving two freight trains near Sathonay, north of Lyon some years ago. Meanwhile, also in S.W France, another TGV collided on Friday with a semi-trailer of timber, whose driver admitted mis-reading his GPS. Fortunately, there were only a few people lightly injured. http://news.google.fr/news/url?sr=1&ct2=fr%2F1_0_s_6_11_a&sa=t&usg=AFQjCNEptKLlRGTW920h4_TRx_q-Z9qpgA&cid=52778966353516&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paris-normandie.fr%2Fdetail_article%2Farticles%2F1110071%2Fbreves%2Bl-essentiel%2Fcollision-tgv-semi-remorque--retour-a-la-normale-apres-la-nuit-dans-le-train-de-passagers&ei=d7_UU5i-POKwigax-oGoBw&rt=SECTION&vm=STANDARD&bvm=section&did=-8036028358878033702&sid=fr_fr%3An&ssid=n Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted July 27, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2014 Don't French signals fail safe to red like ours are supposed to if there is a problem? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 In British practice breaking any circuit won't change a red signal to green. It is necessary to "false feed" a circuit by applying power from elsewhere, as happened at Clapham. This requires damage to at least two cores of a cable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Don't French signals fail safe to red like ours are supposed to if there is a problem? They should.. Could there have been a false feed from a bare wire? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.