BITTON

[Andrew P]

Hi Andy

 

Is that when it was new?  Rails by BR days were longer, most being 95lb per yard an in 60ft lengths. I think it would have been reballasted quite a few times afterwards. Before the line closed much if it had been relaid with flatbottom rail.

 

Looking at photos of the MR in the Britsol area and S&D the ballast was a light colour.

Now you see that's something I didn't know.

 

I obviously knew it would have been re laid at some time and also re ballasted but now Clive has furnished me with more details.

 

I would imagine the Ballast was the same sort of colour as in all the pics it looks white ish as this pic from 1962 shows.

 

Bodge

[67A]

I've just found the details on the line in my book and it states that;

 

The Branch is Double Tracked throughout, the rail is 80 lbs per yard and in 20 feet lengths fixed in cast iron chairs. The Sleepers are made from Baltic Timber, 9ft long, by 10 inches x 5 inches, and placed 3ft apart centre to centre except at joins that were 2ft apart.

The Ballast is of broken stone, ashes and gravel and stated to be 1ft below the underside of the sleepers.

 

Bodge.

Hi Andy,

 

20ft lengths! southern whimps!

[Andrew P]

Here's a better pic of the Ballast with a 7F about to hit the climb up Bitton Bank from Kelston Station on an Up Goods.

 

EDIT = I wish I could get mine to smoke like that, hahah

 

Bodge

Edited September 2, 2014 by Andrew P

[Alister_G]

 

EDIT = I wish I could get mine to smoke like that, hahah

 

 

 

If you run it on 240Volts it might!

 

(for a short while)

 

[Anotheran]

The Ballast is of broken stone, ashes and gravel and stated to be 1ft below the underside of the sleepers.

 

Now when I read this, I picture the sleepers floating 12" above the ballast... which I suspect is not what is actually meant

 

Smooth ride if it is though! Maybe Mike is correct... southern whimps... not liking their rails actually in contact with the ballast... far too rough

[Donw]

Rails got longer over the years before the turn of the previous century (i.e1900) 30ft was common. Sleepers were 9ft originally but by the grouping were 8ft 6in on new work.

Don

[Rowsley17D]

That quote from Andy in #726 sounds like the HM Inspector's report before the opening of the line to traffic.

[buffalo]

That quote from Andy in #726 sounds like the HM Inspector's report before the opening of the line to traffic.

 

Yes, it's from Col. Yolland's report delivered on 2/8/1869. I don't know the details of Midland rail at this time, but 20' lengths of 80lb rail sounds right, the GWR were using lengths of this weight and up to 32' at this time. Their 44'6" panels were not introduced until 1898. A photo of Bitton station c1910 on p49 in the Maggs' book that Andy received a few days ago shows a track panel with 11 or 12 sleepers, so probably in the 30-36' range.

 

On the ballast, I agree with Brian that a carboniferous limestone was most likely, at least in the 20th century, but other materials including some Pennant could have been used in the early days. Given that the cuttings to the north of Bitton station were through Pennant layers, there would have been small rubble as well as building stone available from here. That said, I don't recall seeing Pennant crushed to a suitable size for ballast and I suspect from memory of how it splits it would be a little too angular in shape.

 

Nick.

 

edit to correct a date....

Edited September 3, 2014 by buffalo

[Andrew P]

The ballast would probably have been Carboniferous limestone from one of the many quarries on the northern bit of the S&D, or in the Yate area. The description seems to be in the style of a contemporary Victorian writer, so almost certainly dates from the opening. 20' does seem a bit short, though- shortest standard lengths I've heard of were 45', some of which are probably still serving in sidings somewhere.

Thanks for the info Brian, whatever it is, it certainly appears more cream than grey that there was up in the Midlands and nowhere near like the Reddish colour of the West Country.

 

I always like a nice contrast between track colours, in my mind to many modellers tend to spray everything all one colour. You have three different materials, Steel Rails, Timber Sleepers, and Stone / Mineral Ballast, so logically all three will age differently, and that's why I spray my track before ballasting.

There will be areas where his rule is broken such as in a yard or where Locos stand at the end of Platforms etc, but not all over.

 

Bodge.

[Blandford1969]

You can still get hold of it on various sections, certainly a couple of years ago around Shepton and Blandford. How you break it up to the right size though is quite another question

[Andrew P]

You can still get hold of it on various sections, certainly a couple of years ago around Shepton and Blandford. How you break it up to the right size though is quite another question

Thanks, I have something that with careful laying comes out quite similar, here's a picture of it laid (BADLEY) in the Factory Siding on Loch Leven.

 

Bodge

[georgeT]

'Ashcombe' is waiting for the Bodgit touch ?

 

George

[Fat Controller]

Thanks for the info Brian, whatever it is, it certainly appears more cream than grey that there was up in the Midlands and nowhere near like the Reddish colour of the West Country.

 

I always like a nice contrast between track colours, in my mind to many modellers tend to spray everything all one colour. You have three different materials, Steel Rails, Timber Sleepers, and Stone / Mineral Ballast, so logically all three will age differently, and that's why I spray my track before ballasting.

There will be areas where his rule is broken such as in a yard or where Locos stand at the end of Platforms etc, but not all over.

 

Bodge.

I was trying to think where they might draw stone from. Sources that come to mind, in Western days, are Mells Road/ Frome and possibly Tintern. Until recently, most railways sourced ballast fairly close to home, with the most notable exception being the Southern (who didn't have any local sources of hard rock east of Exeter). The increasing use of continuously welded rail (which meant the ballast had to serve to keep the track in line to a greater extent than previously) and concrete sleepers (which weigh a lot more, and are harder than, many rocks, thus causing degradation of the ballast) meant that sourcing had to be done on something a bit more scientific than operational convenience and first cost. Hence trains of ballast from the Charnwood Forest area of Leicestershire to Eastleigh, Hinksey and Whitemoor, and boatloads of the stuff from Glensanda to the Isle of Grain (my old boss, when he was responsible for Sevington bulk materials depot, got flown up to have a look at Foster Yeoman's operations there- 'amazing' was his description).

Not only do sleepers, ballast and rail age at different rates, they also get replaced at different times; it's only relatively recently, again, that replacing all at the same time has become the norm. Ballast would be 'topped up' without renewing it, so you might have a short section with fresh ballast amongst a lot that was pretty worn. Sleepers might also be spot-replaced, so you'd see one or two fresh-looking ones amongst the weathered ones. Bullhead rail might well be turned when one side of the head became worn, notably on curves. The whole thing was a bit like 'Trigger's Broom'..

[buffalo]

You'll find a bit more on types of rail in the Maggs book. On p155 it mentions 90lb/yd rail being laid from 1934, flat bottom at Newton Meadows in 1959 and welded rail on the up line at Kelston in 1963.

 

Nick

[Andrew P]

I was trying to think where they might draw stone from. Sources that come to mind, in Western days, are Mells Road/ Frome and possibly Tintern. Until recently, most railways sourced ballast fairly close to home, with the most notable exception being the Southern (who didn't have any local sources of hard rock east of Exeter). The increasing use of continuously welded rail (which meant the ballast had to serve to keep the track in line to a greater extent than previously) and concrete sleepers (which weigh a lot more, and are harder than, many rocks, thus causing degradation of the ballast) meant that sourcing had to be done on something a bit more scientific than operational convenience and first cost. Hence trains of ballast from the Charnwood Forest area of Leicestershire to Eastleigh, Hinksey and Whitemoor, and boatloads of the stuff from Glensanda to the Isle of Grain (my old boss, when he was responsible for Sevington bulk materials depot, got flown up to have a look at Foster Yeoman's operations there- 'amazing' was his description).

Not only do sleepers, ballast and rail age at different rates, they also get replaced at different times; it's only relatively recently, again, that replacing all at the same time has become the norm. Ballast would be 'topped up' without renewing it, so you might have a short section with fresh ballast amongst a lot that was pretty worn. Sleepers might also be spot-replaced, so you'd see one or two fresh-looking ones amongst the weathered ones. Bullhead rail might well be turned when one side of the head became worn, notably on curves. The whole thing was a bit like 'Trigger's Broom'..

Thanks Brian, that's great, I never realised they turned the rail as well, I really need to get my head around Bull Head and Flat Bottom Rail, what they look like, what came first etc.

 

Bodge

[Andrew P]

You'll find a bit more on types of rail in the Maggs book. On p155 it mentions 90lb/yd rail being laid from 1934, flat bottom at Newton Meadows in 1959 and welded rail on the up line at Kelston in 1963.

 

Nick

Thanks Nick, I've only got to page 60 so don't spoil the ending, hahha, that's great as I'm modeling the 60's then it would possibly have been Wellded rail through Bitton at that time.

 

Cheers

Bodge.

[Jason T]

I'll be building the turnouts with bullhead mate.......

[Andrew P]

'Ashcombe' is waiting for the Bodgit touch ?

 

George

Haahaha there's a LONG queue.

 

Bodge

[Vanders]

The ballast would probably have been Carboniferous limestone from one of the many quarries on the northern bit of the S&D, or in the Yate area. The description seems to be in the style of a contemporary Victorian writer, so almost certainly dates from the opening. 20' does seem a bit short, though- shortest standard lengths I've heard of were 45', some of which are probably still serving in sidings somewhere.

Having grown up during the 80's right next to the "cycle path", on the section between Oldland and Warmley (where the AVR does not reach!) I can confirm that the old ballast that still lays there is indeed a mid-grey carboniferous limestone. There's still plenty of it down there on the edges where the tarmac hasn't been laid, if anyone wants to get a closer look.

[Ray H]

I really need to get my head around Bull Head and Flat Bottom Rail, what they look like, what came first etc.

 

Bodge

The image in post 729 shows flat bottom rail, that in post 731 is bullhead. Bullhead uses chairs screwed to the sleepers and keys to hold the rail in position in the chair. Flat bottom is spiked to the sleeper through a base plate.

 

You can probably get an idea of the rail lengths in use at the time from the pictures.

 

I'll guess that bullhead came first but only because for some reason I have the impression of chairs being involved in the days of Rocket and the like.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Ray H

[buffalo]

The image in post 729 shows flat bottom rail, that in post 731 is bullhead. Bullhead uses chairs screwed to the sleepers and keys to hold the rail in position in the chair. Flat bottom is spiked to the sleeper through a base plate.

 

You can probably get an idea of the rail lengths in use at the time from the pictures.

 

I'll guess that bullhead came first but only because for some reason I have the impression of chairs being involved in the days of Rocket and the like.

 

One point for identifying the rail in the photos, Ray, but none for the rest

 

Modern flat bottomed rail in the UK is normally clipped to baseplates. Spikes were widely used in the USA, but are not a common feature of British standard gauge lines.

 

As to Rocket on chaired rails, you must be thinking of a replica, not the original. I believe the L&M originally had wrought iron fish-belly rails on stone pads, though wooden sleepers were used over Chat Moss.

 

Both flat bottom rails, known as Vignoles rail, and Bullhead were used from the late 1830s though bullhead became more popular once wrought iron could be replaced by steel made by the Bessemer process in the 1870s.

 

All generalisation, of course, because the history of 19th century rail profiles is rather complex

 

Nick

Edited September 3, 2014 by buffalo

[Andrew P]

Having grown up during the 80's right next to the "cycle path", on the section between Oldland and Warmley (where the AVR does not reach!) I can confirm that the old ballast that still lays there is indeed a mid-grey carboniferous limestone. There's still plenty of it down there on the edges where the tarmac hasn't been laid, if anyone wants to get a closer look.

Thanks Vanders, do you think my GENUINE Derbyshire Limestone Ballast as used in the pic of Loch Leven above will be close enough?

 

Bodge

[Andrew P]

The image in post 729 shows flat bottom rail, that in post 731 is bullhead. Bullhead uses chairs screwed to the sleepers and keys to hold the rail in position in the chair. Flat bottom is spiked to the sleeper through a base plate.

 

You can probably get an idea of the rail lengths in use at the time from the pictures.

 

I'll guess that bullhead came first but only because for some reason I have the impression of chairs being involved in the days of Rocket and the like.

Cheers Ray, I will give it a study and work it out,

 

Bodge.

[Andrew P]

One point for identifying the rail in the photos, Ray, but none for the rest

 

Modern flat bottomed rail in the UK is normally clipped to baseplates. Spikes were widely used in the USA, but are not a common feature of British standard gauge lines.

 

As to Rocket on chaired rails, you must be thinking of a replica, not the original. I believe the L&M originally had wrought iron fish-belly rails on stone pads, though wooden sleepers were used over Chat Moss.

 

Both flat bottom rails, known as Vignoles rail, and Bullhead were used from the late 1830s though bullhead became more popular once wrought iron could be replaced by steel made by the Bessemer process in the 1870s.

 

All generalisation, of course, because the history of 19th century rail profiles is rather complex

 

Nick

WOW Nick, I ain't goin back that far, I'll stick to Code 75 Finescale and that's it.hhahahha

 

Bodge the confused of Swad.

[Andrew P]

Re the Points, as discussed earlier Jason has said he would build the Points for Bitton, but I have have a good look and a short discussion with Jason this morning and I think I can get away with some Marcway ready to plant points to save Jason some time as he is also busy with other projects as well.

 

 

Jason will still make the Trailing point and curved Single Slip but I have placed an add in the Classifieds for any of the following if anyone has any spare bit they would like to throw my way, (normal payment excepted).

 

I need, Code 75 Finescale

2 X 48'' Right

2 x 48'' Left

2 x 36'' Left

1 x 54'' Right

1 x 72'' Y

 

I also need about 24 Yds of SMP TRACK again Code 75 Finescale.

 

Cheers

Bodge