BITTON

[georgeT]

Really started another big debate on our last venture ? all we wanted to do was to kick start your point building, now look what you've started (hahahaha) it's all about fun and enjoying what you do, but maybe we should have looked at Cav's trackplan first ?

 

George

[sp1]

Really started another big debate on our last venture ? all we wanted to do was to kick start your point building, now look what you've started (hahahaha) it's all about fun and enjoying what you do, but maybe we should have looked at Cav's trackplan first ?

 

George

Yes, but building turnouts to any gauge etc is good practice!

[Clive Mortimore]

If using the C&L gauges you can use a strip of metal 1mm thick - these are available from the EM Gayge Society as 'crossing flangeway gauges' as EM also uses the 1mm spacing! You could also use feeler gauges (as used for car engines) but these will not give you exactly 1mm - these nearest is a few thou over 1mm. Alternatively - and I got some from Debs here on RMWeb who sells gauges for various O gauge specs: believe it or not S7 also uses 1mm! I went this route as found it very hard to find suitable 1mm metal strips - ie in steel or aluminium (so that solder doesn't stick to them).

For the check rail I use a check rail gauge (I use 00-sf) as this is easier for this critical dimension: not sure that these are available for other 00 standards - gauging this from the stock rail may not give you a precise measurement (eg on curves), however if using the gauges from the likes of SMP or markits the gaps are something like 1.25mm - this is not then so critical due to the inherent 'slop' built into 00 (try putting a wagon on the track and pushing it side to side to see this (that is, with back to back around 14.5mm) - also the amount of side to side axle movement on loco chassis). However, with the C&L L gauges, using 1mm, this is more critical, and you may actually need gauge widening on curves of less than 3 feet due to the 14.8mm back to back!

That nice Mr Amazon sells metric feeler guages http://www.amazon.co.uk/Metric-Thickness-Feeler-Gauge-0-02-1-00mm/dp/B0052IRYVS

[sp1]

All very very interesting and informative stuff on here lately, a lot of it may and probably does explain why I have had some problems on Dent. Can anyone advise what gauges C+L provide for 'OO' gauge. I used these for most trackbuilding but as there is no 'flat' as Don mentions in post 2607 I had two brass gauges in my toolbox which obviously easier to file down I used for the frog areas etc, so this may explain several problems, too late now for me but be careful Andy and make sure you stick to one standard, I new nothing of this before I started Boooo Hoooo.

Mike, as you say, you can file the end of the gauges if there is no flat.

If you did use two sets of gauges with different measurements that probably would explain your problems!

[sp1]

That nice Mr Amazon sells metric feeler guages http://www.amazon.co.uk/Metric-Thickness-Feeler-Gauge-0-02-1-00mm/dp/B0052IRYVS

Thank you Clive - all my feeler gauges are still in old money!

The benefit if using TWO metal shims though is that you can use them to line everything up on the crossing WITHOUT using roller gauges!! - this is one of the reasons I find 00-sf easier to build: the same should be true for EM, and when using gauges from C & L as all use the 1mm spacing.

Edited November 17, 2014 by sp1

[Andrew P]

Andy

While I am here, if you are ordering more PCB sleeper strips I noticed (page 82) that Jason has used 1.06mm x 4mm strip from C & L on the crossover he has built for you (this is a better match, height wise, for both C & L and SMP flexi-track).

1.6mm, which you are using at the moment, is noticeably thicker.

Hi Steve, I have just spoken to Jason this morning and I am now ordering some of those, and CHEERS for all the other post's and link mate, really helpful stuff.

[Andrew P]

Well morning all, as George said it really has started and fine debate, and I'm very grateful to all who have got involved, so thanks guys.

 

I have some cleaning up to do now before Lee comes around.

 

Catch up later.

[Donw]

If you have turnouts made using thicker PCB it is simple to use some bits of card stuck down with PVA to raise the SMP track to the right height. Any slight drop in level will not be a problem in the middle of plain track as long as it is square to the rails. Whereas close to turnouts it is more likely to cause bother.

 

I agree using revised standards with closer flangeways looks better but the so does C+L plastic chairs. Andy has just build his first turnout the question of how far he wishes to go is up to him. He may have some old 00 stuff with coarser wheels which will not like the revised standards. You have to decide for yourself what matters and what you are prepared to do to achieve things. It may be that while most new stuff is fine some things need re-wheeling or the Back to back easing. It you are prepared for that fine.

With Andy's artistic talents I am willing to bet the result will be good whatever standard he uses.

 

Don

[sp1]

If you have turnouts made using thicker PCB it is simple to use some bits of card stuck down with PVA to raise the SMP track to the right height. Any slight drop in level will not be a problem in the middle of plain track as long as it is square to the rails. Whereas close to turnouts it is more likely to cause bother.

 

I agree using revised standards with closer flangeways looks better but the so does C+L plastic chairs. Andy has just build his first turnout the question of how far he wishes to go is up to him. He may have some old 00 stuff with coarser wheels which will not like the revised standards. You have to decide for yourself what matters and what you are prepared to do to achieve things. It may be that while most new stuff is fine some things need re-wheeling or the Back to back easing. It you are prepared for that fine.

With Andy's artistic talents I am willing to bet the result will be good whatever standard he uses.

Don

I fully agree Don.

 

I was very surprised at what older stock actually runs on the 00-sf turnouts I have built, and now use some of these for testing purposes:

1. An ancient Hornby Pannier (1970s/ 80s?) - had to alter back to back but it runs!

2. Mainline wagon with plastic (!!) wheels!

3. Airfix ditto (and back to backs needed no adjustment on these last two!)

4. Various kit built wagons using Romford wheels

Modern out of the box locos etc no problems, as expected

Edited November 17, 2014 by sp1

[sp1]

Andy

I am curious about two things:

1. Do you know which gauges Jason used to build your crossing?

2. Are you able to measure your gauges? The part to measure is the ridge BETWEEN the two grooves at each end (this determines the size of the flangeway / check rail gaps if used as intended (as earlier outlined by Don).

 

I have, using digital calipers, just measured some SMP (Markits - ref RG10) gauges that I have. The come out at around 1.27mm (it wasn't easy to get the tips of the calipers is, so this could be slightly out). This is within the expected 1.25 - 1.30mm

[sp1]

For those wondering about using the metal strips I mentioned to build the crossing have a look at the pictures on page 37 of 'Eastwood Town' here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3422-eastwood-town-update/page-37

 

Gordon doesn't show a picture of it, just one with the strip lying flat to line up the wing rail, but it is possible to use the second strip upright at the same time (use lots of blu-tac!) to set the (in this case) 1mm gap.

 

Starting with the crossing also means that you get it exactly in the centre, where it should be, then simply work outwards. Doing it this way, and using a Templot plan everything lines up beautifully - you could ALMOST build the rest without using gauges!

[Tim Dubya]

OO-SF = EM-2 (Martin Wynne will tell ya!).

 

Cheers

Edited November 17, 2014 by Tim Dubya

[Andrew P]

Andy

I am curious about two things:

1. Do you know which gauges Jason used to build your crossing?

2. Are you able to measure your gauges? The part to measure is the ridge BETWEEN the two grooves at each end (this determines the size of the flangeway / check rail gaps if used as intended (as earlier outlined by Don).

 

I have, using digital calipers, just measured some SMP (Markits - ref RG10) gauges that I have. The come out at around 1.27mm (it wasn't easy to get the tips of the calipers is, so this could be slightly out). This is within the expected 1.25 - 1.30mm

Hi Steve, yes Jason told me this morning that he has used C & L Gauges that are very slightly different to the Markits ones that I have so I will wait till he comes down and see how much difference there actually is, the main thing is that as you said, the stock that I have tested runs through fine. I have almost no old stock apart from a couple of Hornby TTA Tank wagons that have really bad wheel sets and a few Dapol wagons that don't seem to like any fine track, (I have just sold 14 Dapol Milk Tanks for that reason).

[sp1]

Hi Steve, yes Jason told me this morning that he has used C & L Gauges that are very slightly different to the Markits ones that I have so I will wait till he comes down and see how much difference there actually is, the main thing is that as you said, the stock that I have tested runs through fine. I have almost no old stock apart from a couple of Hornby TTA Tank wagons that have really bad wheel sets and a few Dapol wagons that don't seem to like any fine track, (I have just sold 14 Dapol Milk Tanks for that reason).

That appears to be a well known problem with the Dapol milk tanks - simple solution: change the wheels for Bachmann or Hornby!

Too late now........

[Andrew P]

For those wondering about using the metal strips I mentioned to build the crossing have a look at the pictures on page 37 of 'Eastwood Town' here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3422-eastwood-town-update/page-37

 

Gordon doesn't show a picture of it, just one with the strip lying flat to line up the wing rail, but it is possible to use the second strip upright at the same time (use lots of blu-tac!) to set the (in this case) 1mm gap.

 

Starting with the crossing also means that you get it exactly in the centre, where it should be, then simply work outwards. Doing it this way, and using a Templot plan everything lines up beautifully - you could ALMOST build the rest without using gauges!

Steve, that's an interesting post and Link to Eastwood Town and the track build, I hadn't thought about using the Blu Tack either, yet another good idea.

 

The 1mm gap looks better, I will have a play with the points I've got and then try some older stock over it, this time I'm going to connect up some Peco Code 75 that I have and run some rakes of all Makers wagons through at speed and joined as a train formation over about 6 to 8ft of track.

[Andrew P]

That appears to be a well known problem with the Dapol milk tanks - simple solution: change the wheels for Bachmann or Hornby!

Too late now........

Yes I have kept 4 for Bitton and I have the new Bachmann wheels ready to go into them, there was a Guy at the Club that wanted a weathered Milk Train and he runs on Code 100 so he's happy and I had some funds to buy some more timber, everybody wins.

[Jason T]

I use OO-BF gauges and adjust the back to backs, partly because they are the gauges I got from C&L ages ago and partly because I would rather have consistent back to backs on all my stock.

[Andrew P]

I have just ordered 24 x 8ft lengths of 6mm good quality Ply 4 inches wide for the baseboard side, these will be set on corner blocks with cross members and braces and should form a flat surface. 

 

I have found in the past that no mater how good stuff like 4 x 1 Timber looks when you buy it, it always deforms and causes a board to warp, with Ply strip this cannot happen, OR SO I'M TOLD.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Andrew P

[Mrkirtley800]

Just caught up again.  I turn my back and another half dozen pages suddenly appear.

Well done Andy on your first  point.  Now could you build me two double slips and an interlaced point in EM please.  There's no rush, Saturday will do.

 

I have never kinked the stock rails, at the toe end, on any point I have made.  With bullhead rail you can get the switches (blades) to sit snugly .  I use an elliptical needle file to trim up the blades when it is firmly in place, so that the wheels pass through smoothly.

One other tip which came from a chap called Wing Commander Burns (who remembers him?) is to, where possible, make the crossing and the rails either side straight for, say, 25mm.  You won't even need check rails then.

Good luck on the rest of Bitton, we are all going to enjoy seeing your efforts.

Derek

[sp1]

I suspected that Jason had used the C & L gauges (he included the packet in a picture when he was building your crossing) - I did mention this back on page 80something.

These will mean a check rail gap of 1mm, but you will probably find yourself adjusting a lot of back to backs......didn't Jason have to do that? - Mike did on Dent.

[Andrew P]

I use OO-BF gauges and adjust the back to backs, partly because they are the gauges I got from C&L ages ago and partly because I would rather have consistent back to backs on all my stock.

Cheers Jason, would the same apply if I use the B2B gauge that I have, they would be consistent for all stock providing I build the points to be compatible and that they also work through your Slip that you have already built?

[sp1]

I suspected that Jason had used the C & L gauges (he included the packet in a picture when he was building your crossing) - I did mention this back on page 80something.

These will mean a check rail gap of 1mm, but you will probably find yourself adjusting a lot of back to backs......didn't Jason have to do that? - Mike did on Dent.

Jason beat me to it!!

[Andrew P]

I suspected that Jason had used the C & L gauges (he included the packet in a picture when he was building your crossing) - I did mention this back on page 80something.

These will mean a check rail gap of 1mm, but you will probably find yourself adjusting a lot of back to backs......didn't Jason have to do that? - Mike did on Dent.

Again Steve your right, you seem to know where things are on my thread better than me, good job someone knows what there doing, hahha cheers again.

[sp1]

Cheers Jason, would the same apply if I use the B2B gauge that I have, they would be consistent for all stock providing I build the points to be compatible and that they also work through your Slip that you have already built?

It depends on the size of the back to back gauge you have - I suspect you may need to get a 14.8mm one from C&L ?

 

Edit to add:

You will, of course, need the same track gauges as Jason (c & l) - this will still let you use the two 1mm metal strips to build the crossing (it IS easier- but you do have to build the crossing first).

As regards the back to backs - using 1mm gaps gives you a check rail gauge of 14.5mm, so in theory back to backs of slightly above 14.5mm and up to 14.8 should work (in theory, I haven't tried it) - so what you have May run (but closer to 14.5 you get it is going to be tight!). As Jason said you should aim for consistency on all your stock.

I think DCC Concepts sell back to back gauges for both 14.75 and 14.8mm to allow for different flange thicknesses, they look very nice, but again I haven't tried them!

Edited November 17, 2014 by sp1

[Andrew P]

It depends on the size of the back to back gauge you have - I suspect you may need to get a 14.8mm one from C&L ?

 

Edit to add:

You will, of course, need the same track gauges as Jason (c & l) - this will still let you use the two 1mm metal strips to build the crossing (it IS easier- but you do have to build the crossing first).

As regards the back to backs - using 1mm gaps gives you a check rail gauge of 14.5mm, so in theory back to backs of slightly above 14.5mm and up to 14.8 should work (in theory, I haven't tried it) - so what you have May run (but closer to 14.5 you get it is going to be tight!). As Jason said you should aim for consistency on all your stock.

I think DCC Concepts sell back to back gauges for both 14.75 and 14.8mm to allow for different flange thicknesses, they look very nice, but again I haven't tried them!

I need to order some more Copper Clad to the same standards that Jason has used and I will get a B2B Gauge at the same time so that its the same as Jason's. I need some more rail as well. I have some more points to build once I have given Cav the correct plan for him to do the Templot for me.