Accident or Stupidity, Man Killed on U.S. Shooting Range

[Arthur]

 

Firstly let me state that this isn't an anti gun thread, I was a member of a pistol shooting club myself some years ago and have done a bit of clay pigeon shooting. Responsibly used, they can provide some challenging sport.

 

However, who on earth can possibly think that giving a nine year old girl a UZI, even on a shooting range, is a good idea. This guy paid the highest of prices;

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946

 

Tragic and stupid in equal measure.

[Guest]

I believe his last words were 'OK. Full auto'.

Unbelievable.

 

[The Bigbee Line]

I wouldn't trust most grown ups with any weapon on 'automatic'. As my mum used to say 'he won't do that again'

 

Lesson to all.

[The Bigbee Line]

Likewise. The same applies to power tools.!!!!!!!!

[Calnefoxile]

No1 candidate for the Darwin Award methinks!!!!!!

[Danemouth]

I will be honest, I am extremely wary of firearms, the thought of placing an AK47 in the hands of a child terrifies/horrifies me.

 

Doubtless given the American Gun Lobby nothing will change as a result of this tragedy.

 

Dave

[Ozexpatriate]

The proscription on discussing politics here prevents me from unburdening myself fully on this topic.
 
I have lived in the United States for a period approaching 30 years. There remain several cultural issues in US life with which I will never feel at home.
 
One of them pertains to contemporary interpretations of the second amendment and the reactionary behavior this engenders - which leads to incidents like the topic of this thread.
 
Curiously we all have the seeds of the second amendment in our cultural DNA. As with much of what people of non-American "British" backgrounds consider 'different' about the United States, I believe it stems from the traumas of the 17th century in England - the period during which the American colonies were formed.
 
Specifically the roots of the second amendment lie in the English Bill of Rights.of 1689 (1688 Julian) signed by their Majesties William and Mary.

 

Subjects’ Arms.

That the Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions and as allowed by Law.

 As Englishmen, this was a right cherished by the American revolutionaries a scant 85 years or so later, though it is seldom referenced in that context. The way that this 'right' has morphed over the centuries in what Churchill called "the English speaking peoples" is an interesting study in the curious behavior of humans.

 

Not intending to hijack this thread in any way, but of the world's ten most livable cities in 2014, eight* of them are in the former colonies.

 

1. Melbourne

2. Vienna

3. Vancouver, BC

4. Toronto

5. Adelaide

5. Calgary

7. Sydney

8. Helsinki

9. Perth

10. Auckland

 

I don't think this is a coincidence and it has our shared cultural heritage and the historical societal choices made in it's DNA. Relative to the topic, there are no US cities on this list.

[The Stationmaster]

Does anybody know how much of a 'kick' or tendency to 'wander' there is in an Uzi?  As an automatic with a high rate of fire I would have expected the latter and to be honest would be surprised if a child would be capable of safely holding such a weapon from the viewpoint of strength and sense as much as anything else.

[Arthur]

Absolutely Mike, she could have been whirled around meaning that nobody within the range of that weapon, for 360 degrees, herself included, was safe.

 

Edit; effective range 100 metres.

[Ozexpatriate]

As an automatic with a high rate of fire I would have expected the latter and to be honest would be surprised if a child would be capable of safely holding such a weapon from the viewpoint of strength and sense as much as anything else.

Evidently not and sadly so.

 

Not really knowing the details, it's hard not to ascribe some hubris to the instructor (though in all probability he had done this before) and I can't imagine how this incident will affect that little girl for the rest of her life.

 

The local TV news showed more of the video - up to the point where the girl started to lose control of the weapon.

[Arthur]

Yes, there's some footage on YouTube, which shows that as she squeezes the trigger on full auto, the weapon just swings, in an arc, to the left, towards the instructor. The video cuts at that point. It's quite clear earlier on that her grip on the weapon is tenuous at best and it just slips free from her left hand pivoting around in her right hand.

 

The left hand just cups the fore grip on these weapons, I suspect that her hand was too small, and with insufficient strength, to prevent it climbing out of her grip with the recoil.

[Ceptic]

Hmmmm.

 

A very sad 'Incident' and my thoughts are with the families......

....But... take a.look around you.

 

Some, not all, of ###### Sapiens are, sometimes, at their happiest, or at their evillest. when they've got a weapon in their hand.

 

Until a basic conversion of man's view of recalling their humanity towards other beings happens, then, this type of incident will continue.

 

Here endeth the lesson.

[ZiderHead]

The NRA will no doubt find some way of rationalising this incident into:

 

"All children old enough to walk should be trained in the use of automatic firearms. For safety."

 

[colin penfold]

I cannot for the life of me ascribe the word accident to this occurrence. On any kind of risk assessment or common sense judgement that child should not have been holding that weapon never mind firing it with live ammunition.

[Horsetan]

Sort of confirms the thespian maxim:

 

"Never work with children or animals."

[Ozexpatriate]

The NRA will no doubt find some way of rationalising this incident into:

 

"All children old enough to walk should be trained in the use of automatic firearms. For safety."

Even while that sounds like the kind of thing they might actually say, the NRA will distance themselves.

 

They will deflect criticism by pointing to their "Eddie Eagle" program aimed at "children in pre-K through third grade" (ages 5 - 9) which instructs children with the following:

 

If you see a gun:

STOP!

Don't Touch.

Leave the Area.

Tell an Adult.

 

This is not the first time a child in the US has caused a fatality by handling an Uzi under supervision. More here.

[Arthur]

Sort of confirms the thespian maxim:

 

"Never work with children or animals."

It's a grim thread Ivan but that did make me laugh, nice one.

[Horsetan]

It's a grim thread Ivan but that did make me laugh, nice one.

 

There are quite a few cases of people being shot by their own pets whilst handling or cleaning firearms, so there you go....

[Happy Hippo]

I used to be a qualified  military range conducting officer, and am current a qualified civilian range control officer.

 

Having watched the video, the 'instructor', and I use that term guardedly, gave no reminders immediately prior to firing, about the pertinent safety points of firing an automatic weapon on full auto.

 

This should have been imperative with someone so young and especially one whom had obviously never fired an automatic weapon before.

 

Likewise he was not in a position to quickly take control of the Uzi when things started to go wrong. 

 

This is not an example of how 'gung ho' Americans are in letting  their children lose with guns.

 

It is a prime example of someone not doing their job properly and paying the ultimate price.

 

I received some very sage advice from a WO1 of the old SASC on my course at Warminster.

 

'Give them half a chance and they will kill you! Always expect the unexpected and be over them like a nasty rash'.

[locomad]

Does anybody know how much of a 'kick' or tendency to 'wander' there is in an Uzi?  As an automatic with a high rate of fire I would have expected the latter and to be honest would be surprised if a child would be capable of safely holding such a weapon from the viewpoint of strength and sense as much as anything else.

 

 

Quite a few sub machine guns tend to wander on fully auto I would have expected the butt should have been used held tight into the shouder AK47 tends to do the same up and to the left

 

Having fired one once many years ago did remember there's a bit of a delay when pulling the trigger compared to single shot rifle.

 

Remember been told was designed for tank crews etc small compact

[alfsboy]

My take on the US gun craze is this .Its not very politically correct but here goes .No large minority  can take the country over .They are out gunned before they start by everyone else .On the  other hand over here a container load of weapons and ammo would mean a huge number of citys taken in hours as there is no large  counter militia available quickly .By the time the rubber stamp brigade had woken up ,asked parliament ,talked it over and still not agreed a lot of the country would be in "enemy hands".I know this is over dramatic stuff but it sure aint gonna happen in the US .

[caradoc]

My take on the US gun craze is this .Its not very politically correct but here goes .No large minority  can take the country over .They are out gunned before they start by everyone else .On the  other hand over here a container load of weapons and ammo would mean a huge number of citys taken in hours as there is no large  counter militia available quickly .By the time the rubber stamp brigade had woken up ,asked parliament ,talked it over and still not agreed a lot of the country would be in "enemy hands".I know this is over dramatic stuff but it sure aint gonna happen in the US .

 

Maybe not, but hundreds of people, some innocent, some not, will be killed in the USA by guns this year, compared to the tiny number killed by guns in the UK. I know which I prefer.

[Guest]

Maybe not, but hundreds of people, some innocent, some not, will be killed in the USA by guns this year, compared to the tiny number killed by guns in the UK. I know which I prefer.

This is a little disturbing.

[Ian Abel]

My take on the US gun craze is this .Its not very politically correct but here goes .No large minority  can take the country over .They are out gunned before they start by everyone else .On the  other hand over here a container load of weapons and ammo would mean a huge number of citys taken in hours as there is no large  counter militia available quickly .By the time the rubber stamp brigade had woken up ,asked parliament ,talked it over and still not agreed a lot of the country would be in "enemy hands".I know this is over dramatic stuff but it sure aint gonna happen in the US .

Having to live within the NRA proscribed firing-range that is the US, your last phrase "it sure aint gonna happen in the US" is somewhat "correct", but what is more likely to happen is anyone/everyone in range will be dead or wounded IMHO, and there'll be no enemy hands to run the place - no-one can figure out who's the good guy/bad guy when they all start shooting, that's even be shown from the never ending gang/drive-by shootings over here. Once "someone" starts there's a general mele, and folks shoot folks on the same "side" - just a daft premise...

.

We had a startling situation just yesterday in Minneapolis (a generally relatively quiet part of the US far as guns/killing goes!!) apparently two groups of unknown/unexplained individuals decided they had a disagreement with each other and someone opened fire outside the downton medical center MID AFTERNNON in BROAD DAYLIGHT letting off about 23 rounds!!! --> news item here, for what it's worth http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/272809101.html

Thankfully no-one was hurt/injured, but this is in the fairly stable, supposedly fairly safe upper-midwest, daytime and NOT in any dangerous/lousy part of the city!

 

That's frankly what you get/see with 99.995% of the gun related incidents in the US. Plenty of folks are licensed and are well informed/concentious of course, BUT, the large number of illegal gun-owning nutjobs does NOT make for a protected society that can sustain itself in the face of some ill-percieved possibility of an overthrow of a modern day society by un-informed masses with illegal weapons!

I'd rather take the chance of the land I'm living in (either UK, US or somewhere else equally "somewhat" civilized) being overrun as a result of a container of weapons falling into the wrong hands, against the chance of being randomly DEAD at the hands of armed (99% illegally) idiots on the streets as becoming more and more the case. There's countless sort of shooting EVERY DAY in most major US cities and the even in places like this there's a greater chance of being in/around near some shooting incident that is not very comforting.

[ZiderHead]

On the  other hand over here a container load of weapons and ammo would mean a huge number of citys taken in hours as there is no large  counter militia available quickly .

 

I'm more optimistic about that, in the event of a zombie apocalypse armed insurgency theres a lot of services bases spread around the country, TA bases and armed police units, not to mention schools with CCF arsenals and privately held firearms. Theres a lot more guns around in the right hands than one might imagine, it just you never get to see them.