Hattons announce OO Gauge King

[Dreadnought05]

In view of the research that's gone in why not ditch the current project and produce an "o" gauge model.

Would love to see one in O gauge, but I reckon it'll be a long time before that happens unfortunately.

At least we have the A3 and A4 to look forward to in the mean time.

[Clearwater]

Current issue of BRM has a feature on Hattons, covers the King in a couple of paras. Without saying so directly, I got the impression they are taking stock to see where they are with the project as the market continues to evolve

 

David

[County of Yorkshire]

Whilst I would be very disappointed for these to be pulled - primarily because of the sheer variation in the proposed range (where else would I be able to procure an unlined-green wartime King, for example) - it would not completely surprise me. 

 

Given the recent price reductions one wonders whether Hornby's recent effort landed on either a sated market where the prior incarnation was seen as 85% good enough to therefore not bother replacing, or whether it landed on a market that is willing to pay a premium for finesse and bespoke detail variations that the Hattons King promises. 

 

We will surely know soon enough. 

 

CoY

[rembrow]

Whilst I would be very disappointed for these to be pulled - primarily because of the sheer variation in the proposed range (where else would I be able to procure an unlined-green wartime King, for example) - it would not completely surprise me. 

 

Given the recent price reductions one wonders whether Hornby's recent effort landed on either a sated market where the prior incarnation was seen as 85% good enough to therefore not bother replacing, or whether it landed on a market that is willing to pay a premium for finesse and bespoke detail variations that the Hattons King promises. 

 

We will surely know soon enough. 

 

CoY

 

I agree completely. I've pre ordered one Hattons model, but was tempted post Christmas, to purchase a 2nd Hornby version with the low prices being offered (and it's gone down a fiver since). Hornby have had surplus stock with both of the runs they've manufactured in 2015 and 2016, yet have further versions planned for 2017. Difficult to see that these later versions will sell, so the market is likely to be saturated into 2018. I also felt that having purchased DJ Models Kernow 02s, and J94 that while they are very good models, they had issues that for me, didn't raise them above Bachmann and Hornby in terms of overall detail and running performance. In fact the J94 was completely dead, despite having a DJ Models test certificate. Am waiting for my ordered two 14xx and Class 71s before making a final decision.

[coachmann]

Once Hornby did their updated version the market for another high-volume production looked distinctly dodgy to me. Keeping it in the 2017 Hornby listing ensures that everyone knows it is going to be a runner for quite a while.

[Mad Carew Too]

That would not surprise me, though I recall the savagery of the jackal pack when I raised that possibility a while back!

 

Still, we do not know anything for sure and must remain optimistic.

 

A prophet hath no honour in his own country.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Kings are shelved, though I hope not.

[Hilux5972]

Well Rapido has just shelved the HST prototype due to financial forecasts and the possible high cost of the end product. They arent willing to take the risk at this time, but it's not cancelled. Hopefully the same level of interest and pre-order amount has been maintained to the point that the project does go ahead.

[Edwardian]

I suppose that if pre-orders were sufficient, and have not been cancelled or reduced significantly, the economic case is there, provided that the requisite quality can still be delivered within budget. I think there has only been 1 £10 price increase since I pre-order.  With Hornby's ability to pump them out at £159 and discount to £99, £179 is already looking comparatively rarefied.

 

I don't think anything much under £200 could be complained of for the ultimate King, but the presence of the Hornby King with the lower price tag suggests further price increases would be dangerous for Hattons.

 

Here I am, speculating again.  I suppose I wish to convince myself that this product will be made.

[The Stationmaster]

Whilst I would be very disappointed for these to be pulled - primarily because of the sheer variation in the proposed range (where else would I be able to procure an unlined-green wartime King, for example) - it would not completely surprise me. 

 

Given the recent price reductions one wonders whether Hornby's recent effort landed on either a sated market where the prior incarnation was seen as 85% good enough to therefore not bother replacing, or whether it landed on a market that is willing to pay a premium for finesse and bespoke detail variations that the Hattons King promises. 

 

We will surely know soon enough. 

 

CoY

 

I think Hornby partially found themselves going into a sated market but more so one that was sated at their original price.  Lack of trade orders - for various reasons - plus a need for some cash no doubt prompted them to include 'Kings' in their fire sale and we have benefitted at what we, or certainly me, consider a bargain price.  The biggy for Hattons must be deciding whether or not the market for their higher price and more detailed version still exists or whether Hornby's example suggests it is actually a much smaller market than anticipated.  However if Hattons have good levels of pre-order for particular variants and not so good for others they might have an option to reduce the sheer number of variations and potentially save on tooling costs - we simply don't know and nor will we until Hattons let us know what is happening as regards progress.

 

Personally I hope they will deliver the one I have my eye on but that is there decision not mine.  The real question in my view is whether a partially (at the least) sated market can stand a second version at a higher price point than the current reduced Hornby prices available from some retailers and in some respects it's a pity that Hattons model is lagging way behind the Hornby one - but then it did start development at least a year behind it and for that reason alone was never likely to overtake it, even if Hornby were 'bounced' into an early announcement.

[BWsTrains]

I think Hornby partially found themselves going into a sated market but more so one that was sated at their original price.  Lack of trade orders - for various reasons - plus a need for some cash no doubt prompted them to include 'Kings' in their fire sale and we have benefitted at what we, or certainly me, consider a bargain price.  The biggy for Hattons must be deciding whether or not the market for their higher price and more detailed version still exists or whether Hornby's example suggests it is actually a much smaller market than anticipated.  However if Hattons have good levels of pre-order for particular variants and not so good for others they might have an option to reduce the sheer number of variations and potentially save on tooling costs - we simply don't know and nor will we until Hattons let us know what is happening as regards progress.

 

Personally I hope they will deliver the one I have my eye on but that is there decision not mine.  The real question in my view is whether a partially (at the least) sated market can stand a second version at a higher price point than the current reduced Hornby prices available from some retailers and in some respects it's a pity that Hattons model is lagging way behind the Hornby one - but then it did start development at least a year behind it and for that reason alone was never likely to overtake it, even if Hornby were 'bounced' into an early announcement.

I think a lot of loyal DJM followers are not seeing the Woods for the Trees here.

If the market were that weak why would Hornby have another 3 new models coming in 2017? That makes 11 in total according to my count, hardly poor coverage of the range (granted not reaching to the more specialised corners) and all released ahead of DJMs.

Their action in discounting existing issues makes a lot of competitive sense, swaying the uncertain to purchase their models while removing forward demand for already released numbers will be a commercial tactic which will also support demand for new issues in due course. After all marginal sales once costs have been covered are not a "Fire Sale" - they will be making some sort of a profit for sure.

 

As I said previously, Hornby have played a good game here. I will be very surprised if the DJM King project survives beyond delivery of the last 14xxs.

[Neal Ball]

Perhaps Hattons / DJM would like to drop the King project and pick up the Toplight project instead

[Clearwater]

Let's not forget that Hattons is one of the largest retailers of model trains. They'll have a pretty shrewd idea over demand for items. In addition to what they sell, they will also know what else customers both pre order and enquire about.

 

@Neall - great idea!

[Ian Hargrave]

Perhaps Hattons / DJM would like to drop the King project and pick up the Toplight project instead

Oh really ? What would your best guesstimate for a delivery date on that be then ? That of course after a period of in depth research on arguably one of the most complex coach designs contemplated on this forum..most of us will be kicking up daisies before they would ever see the light of day.

 

There is much grinding of teeth and rending of sackcloth and ashes on this thread.What do we want ? A new model King or its last rites as a glorious "might have been" .I get a strong impression that we are "burying Caesar" rather than praising him..Not quite yet time for the last rites I hope.Good as the Hornby model undoubtedly is.Easy to sit in our armchairs and judge....is it not ?

[Hilux5972]

Perhaps Hattons / DJM would like to drop the King project and pick up the Toplight project instead

I'm pretty sure they aren't just gonna throw away the 100's, possibly 1000's, of hours they have already put into the CAD work and design, not to mention the possible costs involved.

[Clearwater]

I'm pretty sure they aren't just gonna throw away the 100's, possibly 1000's, of hours they have already put into the CAD work and design, not to mention the possible costs involved.

Don't bet on it. the cost of the CADs is small compared to tooling and production costs. If you're not certain of sales, taking the loss on costs to date may be better than losing more money later.

 

However, as others point out, those CADs may have other uses, e.g. O gauge and in the event they don't do all the variants, the costs of the aborted ones would be spread across the remaining products. An interesting contrast to Hornby's strategy where a few initial models are launched and livery / tooling variants run over several years.

 

@ian - whilst Neal's post had an element of truth, I think it also had a degree of tongue in cheek. Yes, toplights had a lot of variations over the c 50 years service but a lot of us are of the view that any toplight is better than none at all.

 

To me, a relatively specialised coach such as a toplight is a natural for a commissioner. Timeframe - who knows. I'd say less than a loco because ultimately it has fewer parts and does not need the mechanical side that a loco does

 

David

[G-BOAF]

For those of us who have held off the Hornby model (or rather particular varients, namely KGV) in favour of the Hattons/DJM model, any cancellation would be rather unfair... Especially as the Cads look SO good and are a step up from Hornby's offering (good as that may be)

[boxbrownie]

Perhaps Hattons / DJM would like to drop the King project and pick up the Toplight project instead

 

Or just scale the King up to 7mm.........Hattons A3/4 or DJM King?  Fight, fight, fight 

[boxbrownie]

I'm pretty sure they aren't just gonna throw away the 100's, possibly 1000's, of hours they have already put into the CAD work and design, not to mention the possible costs involved.

 

Exactly...........just press that 7mm button on the keyboard 

[Miss Prism]

Scaling up a 16.5mm gauge loco to 7mm isn't straightforward. There's a lot more to it than 'just pressing the 7mm keyboard button'.

[Mad Carew Too]

For those of us who have held off the Hornby model (or rather particular varients, namely KGV) in favour of the Hattons/DJM model, any cancellation would be rather unfair... Especially as the Cads look SO good and are a step up from Hornby's offering (good as that may be)

 

Yes, but Oxford's Dean Goods no doubt looked brilliant at the CAD stage, and look what happened there!  There is many a slip twixt CAD and EP; I seem to recall that the DJM/Hattons 14XX CAD included an ashpan!

 

So, I think sexy CADs tell you little about the quality of the finished model.

 

As Clearwater pointed out, it is at the tooling, not the CAD, stage, at which the real money is spent.  Kernow, for instance, I gather was too far forward with the GWR dock tank as it had invested in tooling, so we have a duplicate.

 

Given DJ Models pace compared with the much bigger Hornby, the Hattons never got to that stage before Hornby was able to announce and launch its own. 

 

So Hattons can choose to avoid duplication, a choice Kernow did not have.

 

I fear that Hattons will make the choice to shelve the project.  The longer Hattons chooses to keep schtum the likelier it looks that they will pull the plug.

 

Hope to be proved wrong, of course.

[Pebbles]

Do Hatton's have any contractual obligations?

[Clearwater]

What is clear, is that having made an ambiguous statement in a well read, popular magazine, Hattons need to communicate where they are otherwise speculation will fill the vacuum.

 

Personally, I think we will see something just that it may not be this year, possibly back end of next to allow the Hornby one to clear the market.

 

David

[Dreadnought05]

For what it's worth, I'd be happy to pay a deposit (as opposed to just pre-ordering) to help along an O gauge King.

[boxbrownie]

Scaling up a 16.5mm gauge loco to 7mm isn't straightforward. There's a lot more to it than 'just pressing the 7mm keyboard button'.

 

You did notice the "joker" smiley......or maybe not?  

 

 

Although not that difficult actually.....I 3D scanned a 4mm FNA RTR wagon and had two printed at 7mm scale.....OK no 7mm button, but not that hard to do.

[Edwardian]

Do Hatton's have any contractual obligations?

 

Assuming they have a half-capable lawyer, they will have get outs.  Also, the 14XX/4800 offers something of a stick to beat DJ Models with, should they choose.  It is, obviously, a much more detailed and sophisticated model than the old Airfix version.  You only have to look at the comparison pictures that have been posted.  The unfinished handrails were, however, just not good enough for a modern quality model and forgetting to include the ash-pan was, frankly, a silly and embarrassing mistake.

 

If you were Hattons and considering committing to the cost of tooling to take on the Hornby King, wouldn't these issues raise concerns?  I think that actually the 14XX demonstrates the high quality, detail and fidelity that DJM is capable of, but a couple of things did go wrong and I suggest there is little margin for error on a new King. I would hope the Hattons response would be to seek comfort on these 'quality control' issues, rather than use it as a pretext for cancellation, but it's a harsh world out there and the Rapido decision on the HST shows the fragile economics of such ventures.  Would it were not so.