Hattons announce OO Gauge King

[Colin_McLeod]

 

I would expect Hattons to have an algorithm that plots the rates og preorders and cancelations of the same. so that they can project what impact delays to delivery will have on potential sales. If not they should have!

"If not they should have"!!!

 

What would be the mathematics behind such an algorithm?

[BWsTrains]

"If not they should have"!!!

 

What would be the mathematics behind such an algorithm?

A-B=C; A'-B'=C' etc. more arithmetic and common sense than maths I'd say.

 

If C>C'>C'' etc.  "Houston, we have a problem!" C' being a later time data point than C 

[adb968008]

I think the best algorithm to indicate when to produce would be when this happens...

 

0x4f0x68 0x6c0x6f0x6f0x6b 0x690x740x270x73 0x730x6f0x6c0x64 0x6f0x750x74

[Vistisen]

"If not they should have"!!!

 

What would be the mathematics behind such an algorithm?

 

The same as those used by every retail sale projection system that are used bay almost all supermarket chains,

[Colin_McLeod]

The same as those used by every retail sale projection system that are used bay almost all supermarket chains,

Which is??

[DavidH]

I guess it is demand forecasting or retail projection system, or project-based forecasting/point-of-sale, something like that. It's all on the net ... fairly easy to Google anyway.

[Legend]

One key decision point will be whether it has a Coreless motor v the Hornby one which I believe is 5 pole.

 

The standard advice is not to use electronic track cleaners and feedback controllers ( mine is a Gaugemaster DS it's got simulation , not sure if that's feedback or not) with Coreless motors. If that's the case the Hornby one is definitely a better option for me.

[Vistisen]

Which is??

 

I don't know to be honest, but I know they exist.  Like I can see the need for brain surgeons without having to be able to wield a scalpel myself. So what is your point?

[Ian Hargrave]

One key decision point will be whether it has a Coreless motor v the Hornby one which I believe is 5 pole.

The standard advice is not to use electronic track cleaners and feedback controllers ( mine is a Gaugemaster DS it's got simulation , not sure if that's feedback or not) with Coreless motors. If that's the case the Hornby one is definitely a better option for me.

That's fine with a coreless motor.I never use the simulation on mine in any case.Worth restating this issue though.

[Legend]

Thanks Ian, I thought that was the case. Never quite sure though!

 

I think it is a valid point . I know some people prefer coreless motors , but they can be an issue for others. Reasons manufacturers like them is they are smaller therefore easier to design into a model, but also cost. Is this the type of motor you would expect in a £160+ model?

[Ian Hargrave]

Thanks Ian, I thought that was the case. Never quite sure though!

I think it is a valid point . I know some people prefer coreless motors , but they can be an issue for others. Reasons manufacturers like them is they are smaller therefore easier to design into a model, but also cost. Is this the type of motor you would expect in a £160+ model?

That is a question that perhaps no one can answer until they eventually sit on our tracks.The chassis design was posted here so many moons ago I think we've forgotten.Coreless motors like the Faulhaber were cutting edge 20 years ago but until now no one in OO gauge has taken the challenge.I believe that they have supposedly greater benefits in performance apart from the obvious space saving benefits

 

Maybe "Should've Gone To SpaceSavers" applies ?

[The Stationmaster]

That is a question that perhaps no one can answer until they eventually sit on our tracks.The chassis design was posted here so many moons ago I think we've forgotten.Coreless motors like the Faulhaber were cutting edge 20 years ago but until now no one in OO gauge has taken the challenge.I believe that they have supposedly greater benefits in performance apart from the obvious space saving benefits

 

Maybe "Should've Gone To SpaceSavers" applies ?

 

The critical point is that there are 'coreless motors' and there are 'coreless motors' so it's not just the basic description but needs to go beyond that to the actual specification of the motor which is to be used.  The Hattons 48XX has had the motor upgraded from the one originally planned and no doubt Hattons have been giving thought to which motor/motor performance they want - as DJM's customer - in their 'King' in order to provide the operational performance they require.

[Phil Parker]

And people have been fitting coreless Porterscaps in loco for at least 20 years. I'd expect a Guy Williams King to be worth more than £160 even with one of "those" motors in it.

[Ian Hargrave]

The critical point is that there are 'coreless motors' and there are 'coreless motors' so it's not just the basic description but needs to go beyond that to the actual specification of the motor which is to be used. The Hattons 48XX has had the motor upgraded from the one originally planned and no doubt Hattons have been giving thought to which motor/motor performance they want - as DJM's customer - in their 'King' in order to provide the operational performance they require.

To which perhaps I should have added in my initial post that the Faulhaber equipped locos I have ( both Trix HO ) are outstanding performers.With regard to Hattons and motors I would imagine they will have experienced a sharp learning curve with their Heljan manufactured Beyer Garratt. Hopefully it will then be a case of "once bitten.....".I sincerely hope they will see a powerful and reliable drive train installed in their King. Kernow's O2 (also DJM coreless powered) does not seem to have experienced problems to date and that is a year since first release.

[gwrrob]

The critical point is that there are 'coreless motors' and there are 'coreless motors' so it's not just the basic description but needs to go beyond that to the actual specification of the motor which is to be used.  The Hattons 48XX has had the motor upgraded from the one originally planned and no doubt Hattons have been giving thought to which motor/motor performance they want - as DJM's customer - in their 'King' in order to provide the operational performance they require.

I don't just want mine to look pretty in a cabinet, I want to run trains with it too and not struggle with seven coaches behind.

[57xx]

Which is??

 

An Excel spreadsheet and the guesswork of a buyer....

[Colin_McLeod]

I don't know to be honest, but I know they exist.  Like I can see the need for brain surgeons without having to be able to wield a scalpel myself. So what is your point?

My point is you stating what Hattons "should have"

 

Anyway it's Christmas so it doesn't matter. I will continue to wait patiently for the Hattons King.

[jjb1970]

I've always thought that there is too much attention given to motors and not enough to transmission, pick-up and installation arrangements. How much of the performance (especially noise and smooth low speed running) is down to the motor and how much to pick-up and transmission arrangements? DCC probably did more for low speed performance than motor choice. We have Hornby Railroad models with their economy 3 pole motor that perform better than other models I have with esoteric high end motors. The motor is a component that has to perform a function. If a more expensive motor results in a discernible improvement in performance then fair enough. If there is no discernible improvement, then it is just adding cost for no reason. This is one area where the design clever concept could be well applied. And my experience with large DC club layouts was that locomotive performance was as much about how the layout was wired and the power supply as anything on the locomotive.

[Miss Prism]

I don't just want mine to look pretty in a cabinet, I want to run trains with it too and not struggle with seven coaches behind.

 

Modern motors will have more than adequate power. Maximising the weight over the coupled wheelbase will be the determinant for drawbar force. (Sprung drivers would optimise this of course.)

[Pebbles]

If experience on ebay is any gauge then the motors cost peanuts.

[Ian Hargrave]

If experience on ebay is any gauge then the motors cost peanuts.

 The key issues are reliability and longevity. All components in the drive train matter and that does include the motor,integral to both weight and balance. Personally I do not want a bag of peanuts but a quality component that will do the job for life if properly treated.We are new to the issue of coreless motors ...apart from those of us with Portescap or Faulhaber...in OO mass production.Not enough is yet known of their provenance in r-t-r.

 

Does a good motor make a difference ? IMHO with the abovementioned it certainly does.Two more that spring to mind ( both conventional ) are the Canon motor in the FIATrains 10000/1 and The motor in SLW's new Class 24.Both the latter give cutting edge track performance.

[coachmann]

 I built locos for a living until 1979 and even in the bad 'ol days of open frame motors, it was worth experimenting. Romfords 30-1 and 40-1 gear sets almost always improved on the Triang 20-1 and XO4 motor, then 5-pole motors came out. Naturally the assumption was these motors gave smoother torque at low speed. Low speed control was hard enough with the old controllers and i eventually standardised on Triang 3 pole motors and the Romford 30 to 1 gearset to give the best running at the time. They were also bedded-in with grinding paste in both directions.

 

Latterly, I found the best slow runners on DCC were Hornby 'Railroad' steam locos fitted with flywheels and probably 3-pole motors (I never looked). My worst two runners at starting were Hornby 'Kings'. They showed a distinctive cogging that rattled the tender that none of my various sound decoders could iron out.

[Pebbles]

I will clarify; I have purchased what would appear to be the same motors as in the Hornby A3, J15 and so on. They are not substandard motors; the cost? maximum £2.10 for the Q6, whereas it the motors used in the D16 cost about £2.00 for two. 

[jjb1970]

I collect brass locomotives (yes I'll confess guilt to being a collector) and many of those models come with excellent brand name motors, particularly Faulhaber and Canon. In many cases the running qualities are awful thanks to shortcomings in the gear train and pick-up arrangements, not to mention the dreaded shorting out. Often they use a degree of compensation too. There is an old aphorism amongst among enthusiasts of US brass models that if you want to run the models on a layout then make sure you are, or have access to, a good brass model mechanic. Conversely, as Coachman has pointed out, so of the Hornby Railroad models with the 3 pole motor are superb runners, so much so that to be honest if there is a cost saving relative to their higher end 5 pole skew wound motor then I really can't see any point paying more when their 3 pole mechanisms are as good as the pricier alternative. I've never had any complaints about the running qualities of my Bachmann models either, yet I believe their standard is a 3 pole motor with flywheels. I remember the old Portescap motors and how expensive they were, given that most of them went into kits it is hard to really figure out how much of the performance was down to the motor, gears, pick-up and skill of the builder but I never had any sense that there was any discernible difference over an equivalent model using a cheaper motor. My memories are that the ones with the integrated gears were often let down by very noisy gears. Motors clearly do have performance variations, power, torque and the associated curves, they will also be engineered for different desired levels of durability, however the only models I can remember which struggled to haul an appropriate load had sufficient motor power but couldn't put that power to the rails without slipping (even that isn't very common really in my experience) and I've never really had any problems with poor durability of standard fit motors. I have models I bought over twenty five years ago which have been well used and still run fine.

[Ian Hargrave]

Interesting viewpoint.The one niggle I have with it is .....if you have followed this forum for a while......a puzzling variation in quality of some Hornby. 3 pole motors notably those supplied originally to Cock Of The North which led to several members of this forum replacing them with replacement 5 pole motors of their own sourcing.The 3/5 pole debate seems to divide opinion.

 

I would prefer the emphasis to be on quality and longevity and the avoidance of a repeat of the Beyer Garratt remotoring which has bedevilled this fine model since its initial release.That is unlikely to happen I'm sure.