The future for 7mm

[chaz]

You know, it would be really helpful if people would actually comment rather than just "disagree" with my previous post as then it may give others an idea of what it is you find problematic in what I put.

 

Or is it simply because my point of view, and experience, of a certain organisation automatically clouds their judgement on anything relevant I post?

 

Thankfully I don't take these things personally.

 

You had me worried there for a minute. Had to go back and check, PHEW! It's alright, I had agreed with you.

 

As you say best not to take criticism personally, especially written down, when it is so easy to hit the wrong note or misinterpret.....

[Poggy1165]

Funnily enough, since I retired from my main job I seem to have less time than ever. What's more the effects of age (and to a degree illness) means that things take longer to do. I often think that what I can do in day, a half-competent professional modeller could usually do in an hour (tops). While I am not lacking the proverbial pot, I am far from wealthy. In fact I have to ration what I can spend on model trains fairly severely. Nor am I possessed of astonishing modelling skills. I am average at best, and even that has been achieved through long practice. T'other day a blacksmith on TV was saying it takes 40 hours a week for five years to achieve real skill in a craft. If you translate that into an average person's spare time, it is obviously going to take anyone years to achieve real modelling skill, unless they are uniquely gifted or have somehow found a trade or profession that develops complementary skills.

 

However, one thing is sure - no one will ever develop skills by not trying.

 

I can see the RTR argument for lack of time - ultimately, if we were all multi-millionaire businessmen with busy schedules we might well sub-contract everything (or most things) to skilled professionals. To me this is in essence no different to buying something from Dapol or whoever in a box, it's just a lot dearer.

 

But I find it hard to understand people thinking RTR will be cheap. There's a rather lovely 43xx lately announced for pennies short of two grand. Worth it, certainly, but not what I call cheap. 

 

Also, everyone needs to recall that the 7mm market is small. At a guess I would suspect that around 90% or railway modellers in this country work in 4mm scale 00 gauge, and even their numbers are not huge, which is why you don't often find huge model shops in shopping arcades. The demand is simply too small. There is a demand - yes. But it won't ever reach commercial OO levels, and therefore anyone who would like (or expects) to see a comprehensive range of 7mm scale RTR that is also 'cheap' is crying in the wind. This is particularly true for rolling stock. There are guys out there who will gladly pay £3k or more for a loco that excites them, but they are essentially collectors of locos. They won't necessarily buy 10 coaches or 40 wagons to go with it. 

[Barnaby]

Andrew, like Chaz I went and checked your post and see that 3 people disagree with you.  The icon comment buttons allow you to post even though several post have been made after but not add any text wit them.  If you read the following posts after your post you will see 2 of the 3 have given their reasons.  Looks like it is just a timing issue of when they read your post and you not reading all the following posts before commenting.

 

Regards

[railwayrod]

Hello Poggy1165.

 

I can see where you are coming from but I cannot agree that RTR means spending thousands of pounds. Heljan have produced a range of diesel locos which have been sold for less than £500.00; Dapol are aiming to market their locos for around the £200.00 mark which is not much more than some of the latest 00 locos from Bachmann and Hornby. The other factor is that in the larger scale you do not need as much so the overall cost of a layout is going to be compatible in a given space. In any case a small train in 7mm is much more exciting to watch than a longer one on 00 as you are much closer to the action and 0 gauge has much more of a presence drawing you into the picture as if you were standing on the line side.

 

The prices you quoted for RTR 0 gauge are towards the top end of the market and like any other purchase "you pays yer money etc". You could very well make a comparison with the car industry where you can buy a Ford for under £10.000 or a Rolls Royce for the best part of a £1m. Not everyone can afford a Rolls but a Ford is within reach of the majority of the population. In the same way not everyone can afford a Masterpiece Models "Duchess" But could perhaps afford a Dapol Terrier.

 

In my view the situation regarding RTR in 7mm is improving every year and I for one am very pleased with this. Long may it continue.

 

Rod

[cromptonnut]

One thing I've never understood about quite a few 7mm modellers is when they buy something that has been kit-built by someone (either new, or as a second hand item perhaps from a late Guild member's estate), they don't see that as a "ready to run item" but still as a kit.  Maybe I'm being cynical but surely opening a box containing a kit built item and putting it straight on the track is no different than opening a box containing a Heljan or Ixion loco, which is put down by many as "not proper modelling"?

[boxbrownie]

One thing I've never understood about quite a few 7mm modellers is when they buy something that has been kit-built by someone (either new, or as a second hand item perhaps from a late Guild member's estate), they don't see that as a "ready to run item" but still as a kit.  Maybe I'm being cynical but surely opening a box containing a kit built item and putting it straight on the track is no different than opening a box containing a Heljan or Ixion loco, which is put down by many as "not proper modelling"?

 

Oh oh............now you've done it

 

[ROSSPOP]

which is put down by many as "not proper modelling"?[/quote

 

Dear Cromptonut,

I been an aspiring railway modeller since the 1960's in most of the common gauges and now consider myself as a competent modeller, probably just like many others. Back then just like many others I started with RTR which in the main ran moderately well (triang and Palitoy) The very best British outline was Hornby three rail and Wren but I could'nt afford them.

During my working life , family life, mortgage life, house moving life I have continued this hobby, learning new skills such as kit building , woodwork, electronics all the plethora of directions this hobby of ours can lead you if you so choose.

Now I have retired I have included O guage Guild as my last refuge and have registered with MRWeb. Not at any stage of my railway journey have I not included RTR as part of my project planning. I have made five O guage loco kits and have two 7mm RTR locos and four RTR coaches.

I have never come across any modellers or collectors considering RTR as ' not proper modelling'. Either verbally or by the written word.In fact 4mm RTR is so good that it can be found on an increasing amount of P4 work.

You have obviously been unlucky and met the minority Blinker Heads and I'm afraid you will always come across a few of them in any area of modelling.

 

Regards

John

[steve fay]

That's a very interesting point, I suppose I would deferentiate when the kit is built to my exact specification and is there for unique as opposed to a batch built loco.

I can see your point though.

Once I get hold of a RTR loco theirs no doubt something il change so there for Il customise it a bit and do a bit of modelling.

I suppose that's the difference between collecting and modelling.

[cromptonnut]

Once I get hold of a RTR loco theirs no doubt something il change so there for Il customise it a bit and do a bit of modelling.

 

I have a Heljan 33.  It comes unnumbered.  Does buying some Fox transfers and putting your own number and TOPS panels on it count as "a bit of modelling"?  What about giving it a quick once over with the airbrush to put some weathering on it?  Adding a sound chip?  Or just changing a CV on a normal sound chip to give it a different address to the default #3?

 

I guess everyone has their own definition of how much effort  is required in something to consider it "modelling" and, as you say, make it your "unique model" and that's the real issue - what some consider "a lot of work" would be "barely touching the surface" in other people's opinions.

 

I have nothing but respect for people who can take a pile of brass etches and whitemetal lumps and turn it into something recogniseable - believe it or not - I just know that I can't, and I am unwilling to spend £500+ on a kit that I may never finish.

[johnarcher]

I have a Heljan 33.  It comes unnumbered.  Does buying some Fox transfers and putting your own number and TOPS panels on it count as "a bit of modelling"?  What about giving it a quick once over with the airbrush to put some weathering on it?  Adding a sound chip?  Or just changing a CV on a normal sound chip to give it a different address to the default #3?

 

I guess everyone has their own definition of how much effort  is required in something to consider it "modelling" and, as you say, make it your "unique model" and that's the real issue - what some consider "a lot of work" would be "barely touching the surface" in other people's opinions.

 

I have nothing but respect for people who can take a pile of brass etches and whitemetal lumps and turn it into something recogniseable - believe it or not - I just know that I can't, and I am unwilling to spend £500+ on a kit that I may never finish.

4mm narrow gauge person trespassing - sorry.

I wonder is the latter a problem in 7mm - in 4mm scale I messed up a few first etched kits, but at about £20 or less for a coach, about £70 or £80 for a locomotive - a bit different from 7mm etched kit prices. Eventually I got better and managed to finish things (see picture left) - it must be an expensive business to get that introductory practice in 7mm?

 

As for the first part of the post - I would suggest that simply buying models (whether commercial or kit-built) and doing no more is collecting, not modelling (most dictionaries seem to agree), and complete scratch-building is the opposite.  BUT we nearly all come somewhere between, a personally satisfying or convenient mixture of buying and creating - from a numbered and weathered 33 (whatever that is), through re-wheeling, conversion, kit-building, (but buying wheels, motors etc), or the usual mixture of buying some stock, building some, making some scenery. We all strike our own balance - some buying mixed with some personal input that is modelling.

[steve fay]

Even if it is RTR if the layout its sat on has been built by hand then that's also modelling. I sometimes get the impression that in 7mm to be a modeller you have to be a kit builder.

As I've stated earlier in this thread I think the RTR will improve our hobby and get more people in to it as it's an easy way in to it. I also believe we need good kit support for it to thrive.

I don t think the very expensive RTR guys copying each other is productive and are the biggest threat to the kit market.

We are at a time now when some kit ranges are up for sale and in the future as the current owners get older and decide to pack it in if we have very expensive RTR producing the same stuff they could find it harder to get a buyer or for a kit manufacturer to contemplate doing all the work to produce the same locomotive or certain kits will not be revived. I might not have £3000 at the moment but I might have the cash to buy a kit then in a few months motor and wheels. Then I can have it built then painted.

In 20 years when I'm 54 and I want another Castle I just hope I can still get a Mitchell kit and have it built to my exact spec.

[chaz]

Oh dear, here we go again.

 

It's a hobby.

 

Do it the way you want to.

 

Avoid making judgements about the way others do it.

 

Walk quietly away from the stuff you don't like.

 

OK?

[Buckjumper]

One thing I've never understood about quite a few 7mm modellers is when they buy something that has been kit-built by someone (either new, or as a second hand item perhaps from a late Guild member's estate), they don't see that as a "ready to run item" but still as a kit. 

 

Well they are kits again once I've run the microflame over them

[Buckjumper]

It's a hobby.

 

Do it the way you want to.

 

Avoid making judgements about the way others do it.

 

Walk quietly away from the stuff you don't like.

 

Exactly. 

 

RTR doesn't suit me, simply because nobody produces RTR which fits in with my plans, and perhaps crucially, 99% of RTR is 32mm gauge and my gauge of choice is 33mm. By the time I've sorted out the undergubins I could have built one without the inevitable compromises, but that's because over the years I've developed the skills, and is the way I like to express my hobby.

 

Several RTR items have passed across my bench in a professional capacity for (mostly) painting and weathering, but recently a Finescale Brass 2MT in for weathering needed a different chimney fitting (this was after it had been painted and lined by someone else!). It was a lovely model, well built and ran beautifully. I can definitely see the attraction.

 

There's no need for anyone to be snotty from either camp; if RTR helps you in your hobby then great. If building kits is your thing, then great. If you mix and match, then great.

 

Is a theme developing here?

[chaz]

Exactly. 

 

RTR doesn't suit me, simply because nobody produces RTR which fits in with my plans, and perhaps crucially, 99% of RTR is 32mm gauge and my gauge of choice is 33mm. By the time I've sorted out the undergubins I could have built one without the inevitable compromises, but that's because over the years I've developed the skills, and is the way I like to express my hobby.

 

Several RTR items have passed across my bench in a professional capacity for (mostly) painting and weathering, but recently a Finescale Brass 2MT in for weathering needed a different chimney fitting (this was after it had been painted and lined by someone else!). It was a lovely model, well built and ran beautifully. I can definitely see the attraction.

 

There's no need for anyone to be snotty from either camp; if RTR helps you in your hobby then great. If building kits is your thing, then great. If you mix and match, then great.

 

 

...and if I wouldn't do it the way you do, well I can admire the results, feel slightly envious (actually a lot more than slightly), but any differences in your approach to mine do not undermine me (although they may challenge me to try and do a bit better).

 

An acquaintance of mine is a collector - he doesn't have a model railway but he does have a lot of very desirable model locomotives. His sole contribution was to buy them (often at auction). He would not claim to be a modeller but he inhabits the extreme end of the spectrum of model railway enthusiasts. A visit to his house was fascinating as he opened various cupboards and boxes to reveal everything from O Gauge kit-built gems (such as a Martin Finney Duchess) right through to a large scale live steam Gresley A3. It would be silly and rather rude to express disapproval because the man doesn't even own a soldering iron...... We might envy the wallet that allowed him to build up such a collection.....he certainly appreciated the work I was doing on an etched brass kit I showed him.

 

I'll shut up now.

 

Chaz

[raymw]

fwiw, I worked out a method of hot rolling fencing wire to make rails, and currently I'm cutting up 'Kingfisher Heavy Duty green twine' for flock. Why, you may ask? Because I can, and it keeps me off the streets

[Buckjumper]

...and if I wouldn't do it the way you do, well I can admire the results, feel slightly envious (actually a lot more than slightly), but any differences in your approach to mine do not undermine me (although they may challenge me to try and do a bit better).

 

And equally Dock Green inspires and challenges me to up my game, in so many ways.

 

An acquaintance of mine is a collector - he doesn't have a model railway but he does have a lot of very desirable model locomotives. His sole contribution was to buy them (often at auction). He would not claim to be a modeller but he inhabits the extreme end of the spectrum of model railway enthusiasts. A visit to his house was fascinating as he opened various cupboards and boxes to reveal everything from O Gauge kit-built gems (such as a Martin Finney Duchess) right through to a large scale live steam Gresley A3. It would be silly and rather rude to express disapproval because the man doesn't even own a soldering iron...... We might envy the wallet that allowed him to build up such a collection.....he certainly appreciated the work I was doing on an etched brass kit I showed him.

 

I love collectors who don't own soldering irons, I love modellers who are cash rich and time or skills poor, as they all keep me in business   However the day job never stopped me from helping anyone who asks for advice on soldering, nor from putting it all into writing in a 12-part series in BRM.

 

Someone else I find inspiring; 2ManySpams. In July Chris had never built a 7mm kit, and all his 4mm efforts were (in his words) fit for ballast. For his first 7mm kit he chose a clunker, and (heroically or possibly not realising then that he needed his head examining) decided to publicly describe and illustrate every step. Now, 45 pages later he's nearly there, and I'm sure the clumps of hair will grow back. His next kit will be a breeze in comparison.

 

RMWeb is a fantastic safety net. When I built my first 7mm kit back in the early 90s I had no one to turn to for advice and with a lot of determination eventually found my own way. Anyone who fancies dipping a toe in the water now has a huge wealth of knowledge and the will to help around them on this forum. To anyone thinking about it, I think trying a kit is worth a punt.

[Buckjumper]

I'll shut up now.

 

Chaz

 

For clarity, when rating your last post I wasn't agreeing with this bit.

[Donw]

Steve I think my life expectancy (according to insurance tables) is probably less than 20 years so I am trying not to buy too many kits as I will never build all the ones I have stashed.

 

I have been priviledged to get to know some of those with very deep pockets and some of those who cater for them. Some 'collectors' have layouts but are collectors because they buy far more than the layout can take and have them stored in boxes. I know another with a garden full of sheds  containing 0 gauge layouts plus ground level 5inch gauge and a hobby room with loads of locos on shelves. He is also part of a team producing fine exhibition layouts. So the distinction is rather blurred. At the moment I have more locos not built by me than those I have built. This is due to other things taking my time up. Two are Ixon products but one needs painting. Two are things I purchased from a good friends estate the memories are part of their value one was a special present for a significant birthday built to order and two more were built for me by a good mate. Not your usual RTR

Don

[ROSSPOP]

Folks! Folks!

I think we need to lighten this all up. Its only a hobby........(

I `ve given some thought on the definition of us modellers. See what you think.

 

 Some of us Choose Only Diesel Stock and could be (CODS)

Others may be Wealthy And Love Locomotives Of Precision and their heading for( WALLOP). Hopefully we will get more Young Oguage Undergrads(YOU)

Some of us prefer just Scenery And Dioramas and of course are( SAD ) or Operating Layouts, Demonstrating even but might be (OLD).

  Of course those of us who have been modelling for some time have to Build In Garages Over Time (BIGOT) but actually end up Building In Guage O Till Eventual Demise. (BIGOTED).

Therefore , what we really need then is to be Single Independent Modellers Preferring Layouts Easily Sourced (SIMPLES)

 

   

[chaz]

....Dock Green inspires and challenges me ......

 

 

Someone else I find inspiring; 2ManySpams. In July Chris had never built a 7mm kit, and all his 4mm efforts were (in his words) fit for ballast. For his first 7mm kit he chose a clunker, and (heroically or possibly not realising then that he needed his head examining) decided to publicly describe and illustrate every step. Now, 45 pages later he's nearly there, and I'm sure the clumps of hair will grow back. His next kit will be a breeze in comparison.

 

RMWeb is a fantastic safety net. When I built my first 7mm kit back in the early 90s I had no one to turn to for advice and with a lot of determination eventually found my own way. Anyone who fancies dipping a toe in the water now has a huge wealth of knowledge and the will to help around them on this forum. To anyone thinking about it, I think trying a kit is worth a punt.

 

"Dock Green inspires and challenges me"   Oh cripes, we are in grave danger of becoming a mutual admiration society. Stop it right now. ENOUGH.

 

"Someone else I find inspiring; 2ManySpams." - Agreed. He has certainly been challenged.

 

I agree with your comments on the subject of RMWeb. I hope that kit designers see accounts like that of 2ManySpams and that they take to heart the fair criticism within them. At the very least they should be ready to warn beginners of the difficulty or otherwise of the kits they sell. Jim McGeown is very good at this - some of the others should take note!

 

Chaz

[81A Oldoak]

David Smith, IsambardUK of this parish, in his article in the November 2014 edition of the Gauge 0 Gazette about modifying the Ixion Hudswell Clarke describes it as a "Ready-to-run kit".  I think Paul Martin at EDM/NG Trains treats the Fowler diesel similarly. Hmmm...

[Poggy1165]

One thing I've never understood about quite a few 7mm modellers is when they buy something that has been kit-built by someone (either new, or as a second hand item perhaps from a late Guild member's estate), they don't see that as a "ready to run item" but still as a kit.  Maybe I'm being cynical but surely opening a box containing a kit built item and putting it straight on the track is no different than opening a box containing a Heljan or Ixion loco, which is put down by many as "not proper modelling"?

 

This may apply to some people. Certainly not to me. As I indirectly said above, I see no difference between buying a completed kit built model (whether commissioned or second hand) and buying a Dapol or Lionheart loco. The difference may lie in cost, although there are occasionally bargains to be had in the second-hand market. Nor do I think there is any inherent virtue in making kits. Kits can be (and often are) enjoyable to build; they can also be a sort of horrid torture where one ends up chucking 50% of the box content in the bin because it is *****. There are other aspects of the hobby besides construction.

 

So if people want to build a layout that is purely made up of RTR items - fine. That is their choice, and they have their reasons, like I have mine for not converting to S7. They really don't have to explain or justify themselves, and time and money issues constrain us all. (Not even Pete Waterman can be in two places at once.) But because of the size of the market, it will be fruitless for them to complain that their choice of prototypes is relatively limited. The situation may slowly improve - if you look back 10 years it already has. But I doubt there'll be a RTR Pollitt single for me any time soon. And quite possibly not a <your choice of loco or piece of rolling stock>. 

[Guest Isambarduk]

"Nor ... is any inherent virtue in making kits."

 

I agree, but then there is no inherent virtue in any of this, is there? 

 

However, what I think that some of us are failing to get across to others is that we actually gain great satisfaction in making a model and continue to gain satisfaction from knowing that we made it.  In my own case, I have built 7mm locos and rolling stock but I have no railway; just occasionally a few of my locos will receive an invitation to exercise their running powers and they will be taken from their resting places (shelf, cupboard, bag) and go for a jaunt but otherwise they are just a static collection.

 

On the face of it, I suppose that makes me just a collector (of my own work)?

 

David

[Guest Isambarduk]

"IsambardUK of this parish, in his article in the November 2014 edition of the Gauge 0 Gazette about modifying the Ixion Hudswell Clarke describes it as a "Ready-to-run kit"."

Yes I did, but actually it was my wife, seeing my Ixion HC in bits, who commented "Good value these ready-to-run kits, are they?", so it was she who coined the phrase (and I do like it) - but the answer to her question is an emphatic yes!

Just for information, I did write up my rather extensive reworking of this brilliant RTR model in captioned pictures here on RMWeb but, if you missed it and would like to see it, it's in amongst the thread Idea: Conversion of Ixion Hudswell Clarke (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69095-idea-conversion-of-ixion-hudswell-clarke) but it is much more easily followed (unabridged) at: www.davidlosmith.co.uk/GCR_Humber.htm

 

David