The future for 7mm

[steve fay]

As it seems both the Martin Finney range & the Gladiator range are up for Sale where does this leave 7mm modellers ?

By that I mean quite a few if not the majority of the traders are all up to or passed retirement age.

The cost of etching is rising all the time this making traditional etched kits more difficult to procure.

Multi media kits are definitely the way forward and embracing new technologies is a must.

I'm all for RTR I think it's a great way of getting people into the hobby and hopefully then they will move on to kit building or commissioning others to build them One off models to there exact specifications.

Up until now I've only had others build for me and bought Heljan RTR but I'm now ready when funds permit to have a go at a jltrt diesel kit.

So what's the point behind all this, well I'm 34 so say in 20 years time when I'm the around the age of most 7mm modellers will there be new Martin Finney's or Gladiators or will the senior scale be more like 4mm is today?

[The Nth Degree]

Thankfully, they are both for sale, and not retired and burried. If their businesses are viable and the asking price is right I'm sure someone will buy them or absorb them.

 

It's not a worry, it's an opportunity.

[peter220950]

I suspect there will have been a significant change towards RTR as more of the kit manufacturers fall by the wayside, however the constant movement of the 'favourite period modelled' will also have a major part to play in the kit market.

 

When I started in O, some 40 years ago, it was mainly pre-grouping stuff that was modelled, this has gradually moved over the years through early BR, BR and early diesels, to modern diesels, and now a sprinkling of electrics, it's now less frequent to see a pre-grouping layout at an exhibition, and some of the new manufacturers are tending more to modern era's.

 

As a result traditional etched brass and whitemetal kits are falling by the wayside just as much because of falling demand, and the motive power that replaces them needs differing solutions. The JLRT resin bodied diesels, Easybuild extruded plastic DMU sides, coupled with more box like etched diesel shapes, are all likely to have changed the way kits are produced. I'm not sure what will happen with wagons as they tend to get bigger and run in blocks as time moves on, so it may be a situation where there is more RTR to take the ball-ache out of a train of 20 modern wagons, but I bet there will still be a lot of Engineers wagon kits around. If there is demand for ranges of etched kits then they will continue, it's only a few that have been bought up but then not re-introduced, that have been lost forever.

 

The new technologies of 3D printing and laser cutting will also mean that it becomes more cost effective to produce small volume models at home, so there may be a resurgence in the cottage industry as people make something for themselves but can produce a small run for sale as well.

 

The other thing to bear in mind is that as era's become less popular there will be an influx of unbuilt kits, and kit built loco's, on the market as old codgers like me pop their clogs, and these will be at lower prices than now, once the attics get cleared out, as there's probably going to be less demand for these products.

 

For those who fear the future, just as an illustration of how things were 40 years ago or so, in case anyone forgets, many of the coach kits had wooden bodies, and I have just built an 0-4-0 that had been hanging around from the 60's.

 

 

The kit parts, tinplate mainly, were just a bit crude, you will note the aluminium turned wheel rims to be glued onto the plastic wheel centres!

 

 

And as for the fully comprehensive instruction sheet.....

 

 

I suspect then that all will not be doom and gloom, it will just be a different place that you will be modelling in 20 years, you might not be able to find a new Duchess kit, or if you can it might be expensive, but there won't be any problem with Diesels DMU's and EMU's.

 

All in all I believe you will be in a much better place than I was in the 1970's, and that can't be a bad thing, I don't think it will necessarily be cheap, or perfect, but I don't think it will be bad, just wish I could still be around for it.

 

 

 

 

[steve fay]

I don't think it will be doom and gloom. With the new technologies I think it could be very exciting but I do wonder if RTR will be the norm?

Now we have some superb kit suppliers, I just hope we don't loose this as the core of the scale. I hope the likes of finney and gladiator do find a new home but as I said the cost of etching is getting very expensive.

Looking at the new Mallard magazine deal using injected moulded plastic for the boiler is a good thing.

I think that in the future using many different materials might be the best way forward & relying less on some of the more expensive materials.

This is not meant to be all 'the end of the world is coming' just to see what others think.

[mopar]

I don't think it will be doom and gloom. With the new technologies I think it could be very exciting but I do wonder if RTR will be the norm?

Now we have some superb kit suppliers, I just hope we don't loose this as the core of the scale. I hope the likes of finney and gladiator do find a new home but as I said the cost of etching is getting very expensive.

Looking at the new Mallard magazine deal using injected moulded plastic for the boiler is a good thing.

I think that in the future using many different materials might be the best way forward & relying less on some of the more expensive materials.

This is not meant to be all 'the end of the world is coming' just to see what others think.

It could be but prices need to become more realistic.

At the moment £600 or thereabouts for a diesel is a bit steep in my opiniion.

[peter220950]

It could be but prices need to become more realistic.

At the moment £600 or thereabouts for a diesel is a bit steep in my opiniion.

The various runs seem to sell out regularly so prices can't be that unrealistic, and there's usually a deal to be done

 

Heljan Deltic from Tower £460

 

Class 31 ditto £460

 

Class 33 ditto £350

 

Class 37 ditto £375

 

And these are big diesels, - the Dapol 08 might be a good starter for many, and if successful I'm sure there will be more

[hartleymartin]

As long as there is a good selection of RTR and easy to build kits, 7mm will me quite safe.

 

However, they need to be kept at a reasonable price. New entrants into model railways (young people who don't have a lot of money) will depend on Christmas and Birthdays for the bigger purchases and save up pocket money for wagon and coach kits.

 

I say this as I started in O gauge 10 years ago when I was 18 and the only RTR was very expensive brass or Lima models from the 1970s. I went for a number of years just with wagons in my collection and I owned one very expensive rtr locomotive, which basically meant that could no longer afford to buy anything for at least 12 months.

 

The Ixion offerings and the soon to be released Dapol Terrier would have been a huge boon when I was starting out. Beginners are not so nervous in stuffing up a 35-pound wagon kit, but a 235-pound loco kit is enough of a challenge to put off many potential beginners.

[chaz]

The market for 7mm will always be influenced by its size. A double track main line featuring Pacifics hauling convincing length trains is a possibility for many in 4mm, the same in 7mm is out of the question for most.

So the emphasis is on smaller locos, small layouts, short trains. My exhibition layout (Dock Green) is 16 feet by 2 feet and very restricted. Goods trains are limited to seven plus a brake, all the steam locos are tanks and the biggest loco to feature regularly is a Sulzer type 2 Bo-Bo. Even so there is nowhere in my house where I can set it up so the only time I get to play trains is at shows.

[JeffP]

Actually, prices for 0-scale are relatively lower to an identical H0/00 model. Say an H0 loco is 100 quid. The 0-scale model is not just twice the length, but also width and height, so that's 2x2x2=8 times the volume. If the 0-scale model is GBP400, that's just 4 times that of the H0 model

Doing the maths correctly gives a figure of £535.

 

SOME kits work out at FAR more.........

[81A Oldoak]

When Ixion moved into the RTR  0 gauge market we were quite clear about our chosen niche: small, relatively inexpensive but good quality generic, long-lived and widely spread locomotives without a strong regional affiliation that would satisfy established 0 gaugers and attract new entrants. We believe we have been successful. Despite requests to produce Bullied pacifics, ROD 2-8-0s and other large locos, we do not envisage sufficient demand for the reasons set out by Chaz above, but everyone has space for an Inglenook plank and a small shunting loco and a few wagons.  Our only regret is that we did not do the 08 as we would have had it out by now (the Fowler had a gestation period from quoting to delivery to customers of 11 months), but duplication risk is too much to absorb in 0 gauge.

 

The popularity of the first generation diesels reflects the age profile of enthusiasts. My spotting days were 1970-1975 at Bristol so I am collecting the Heljan hydraulics. I've also ordered a blue 40 because of memories from my days at York University from 1977-1980. We are in our late Forties and Fifties now.

 

Overall, I don't think there is reason to be too gloomy. I think there will be a specialist kit market for those willing to invest the time and money, but perhaps using some of the new and emerging technologies. We are not yet sure about the concept of crowd funding, which transfers the financial risk from the nascent producer to...well nowhere, or so it seems. But if unfilled demand exists, someone enterprising will usually spot it and find a way to provide satisfaction.

 

Regards,

 

Chris

[hartleymartin]

It's just a shame that skytrex went bust. I was rather keen on acquiring a Y6 Tram and Sentinel Shunter.

 

Perhaps Ixion will investigate acquiring the tooling and rights for them?

[BrushType4]

It's just a shame that skytrex went bust. I was rather keen on acquiring a Y6 Tram and Sentinel Shunter.

Perhaps Ixion will investigate acquiring the tooling and rights for them?

Skytrex are still going. Not many would be satisfied with the quality of the Y6 Tram or Sentinal Shunter though so maybe that contributed to the company going bust the first time around?

[peter220950]

Skytrex are still going. Not many would be satisfied with the quality of the Y6 Tram or Sentinal Shunter though so maybe that contributed to the company going bust the first time around?

 

I seem to recall that was due to other parts of the company, not the railway stuff.

 

That said I think it's fair to say their buildings have done more for 7mm than their loco's and rolling stock did, though they were improving prior to withdrawal from that part of the market they still had a long way to go.

[steve fay]

Chris

I agree with you on the duplication issue, I wish the big expensive RTR guys thought the same way, I see them as the biggest threat to a good kit market.

I in no way intended this to be a Oh No what's going to happen to 7mm Ahhhhh

More a were do we as 7mm modellers see our side of the hobby going in the future

[mopar]

It seems to me that Heljan create a 'limited edition' ethos around their locos.

That's entirely up to them, but by doing that they can then charge a higher price almost certain that modellers/collectors will rush to buy them lest they miss out.

 

Laws of supply and demand and all that.

[81A Oldoak]

It seems to me that Heljan create a 'limited edition' ethos around their locos.

That's entirely up to them, but by doing that they can then charge a higher price almost certain that modellers/collectors will rush to buy them lest they miss out.

 

Laws of supply and demand and all that.

I'm not convinced that's true. The cost of a tooling a mould for a large main-line diesel body shell is orders of magnitude more expensive than Ixion's small industrial locomotives and would require a lot of nerve to run a thousand or more pieces. No manufacturer wants unsold stock in the warehouse so he or she is more likely to play safe with a smaller run.

[mopar]

I'm not convinced that's true. The cost of a tooling a mould for a large main-line diesel body shell is orders of magnitude more expensive than Ixion's small industrial locomotives and would require a lot of nerve to run a thousand or more pieces. No manufacturer wants unsold stock in the warehouse so he or she is more likely to play safe with a smaller run.

Without going into too much detail (if poss.) what is involved in creating the mould for a body shell?

I would guess it's made of some kind of metal, to withstand molten plastic.

Why do they wear out so fast?

 

BTW chaps I'm not having a dig at Heljan, just using them as an example.

[JeffP]

You do.......when you take into account the cost of a Western from a well-known kit manufacturer. Once you add in wheels, two lots of motors and gearboxes, pickups, lighting and working fans, you'd be some £hundreds out of pocket.

[JeffP]

The duplication thing is crazy too.

 

THREE RTR 9F's announced...THREE!

 

Yet some locos are still either unavailable, or available from one place, like a Thompson A2/3.

 

I just can't understand it.

[steve fay]

I know when for the price you could have a MOK one built

[railwayrod]

I am following this thread with interest. It seems to me that two main issues are arising out or the subject so far. The first is based on kits which need to be made up and finished This is fine for those with the skill to do so and I hope that this side of our scale continues for many years. There are not many people around who can remember the pre-grouping era yet there are many etched kits available for this era. I suspect that these will gradually disappear over the next couple of decades but will be replaced by new and exciting technologies which will challenge the "kit builder" in the same way that etched kits do now.

 

The second issue is that of rtr. I am a severely visually disabled modeller and as such I have to rely on the rtr market for my models. The price of Heljan and Ixion locos is very reasonable for what you get and I for one look forward to seeing more and more rtr stock becoming available in the next decade. I have recently had my interest  in the railways of Germany re-kindled thanks to the Lenz 0 gauge range. These models are superb and come already fitted with DCC sound et al and in my view represent excellent value for money. The Ixion range is I feel compatible once sound has been fitted but I think Heljan has a bit further to go to match the quality and price of German stock.

 

I do not intend to give up my Ramchester layout (see RMweb The Ramchester Chronicles) as a great deal of effort has been put into it both by myself and by my friend Howard. Ramchester came about as a result of the rtr locos produced by Tower and by San Cheng and it is fair to say that I probably would not have gone into 0 gauge without the trade support of firms like Tower, San Cheng, Heljan et al.

 

Long may the kit manufacturers and the rtr market continue to provide us less able modellers with affordable accurate and good running stock that we can buy.

[81A Oldoak]

It is not just the body shell. There are separate fuel tanks, buffer beams, bogie detail, brake detail, vacuum, steam, control pipes, cooler fans which also work with two small motors, plus other small details. All will have separate tools made or be part of a sprue. There are four circuit boards on the Western, one master, two for the end light assemblies and a fan controller. The main chassis is die cast metal, as are the bogie side frames and it has two motors. There is a lot of design and manufacturing work involved. So I believe you get value for money.

It is indeed a complex  and expensive process and requires a large amount of financial risk. There is a tendency in the UK market compared with other countries to expect low prices, which would demand very long runs to recover the costs and provide a fair return on the capital risked by the owners. We looked into doing some RTR 0 gauge wagons, but  decided it was not worth the effort or risk after allowing for the retailers' margin, the extra administrative and shipping costs associated with the necessarily longer production runs and, of course, George Osborne's 20% expropriation (with menaces).

[Guest Isambarduk]

I have also been finding this a most interesting topic.  I have always been in 0 gauge from my early tinplate days when I was a boy and although I enjoyed running models/toys I always enjoyed making them even more!  Then, and now, I spend 'infinitely' more time in the workshop with my models than I ever do running them but I do not feel deprived of running time, far from it.  Furthermore, I do not have a railway of my own and rely on others offering me running powers from time to time.
 
RTR has been interesting but, as those who have followed my reworking the Finescale 8F (www.davidlosmith.co.uk/LMS_8F.htm) and then reworking the Ixion Husdwell Clarke (www.davidlosmith.co.uk/GCR_Humber.htm) will know, my RTR models spend far more time in the workshop than they do on the track! So, I shall go on scratch-building, building from scratch using kits, and building from kits made by dismantling RTR. 

 

The only slight cloud is that, now that everybody can start to buy what I have taken over forty years to make, I do wonder if it will go on being fun in 0 gauge.  I liken it a bit to habitually trekking over a mountain pass to reach a secluded lake only to find a tunnel being built so that everybody can drive there.  I know that the fun should be in the trekking but it does take the gloss off it to find that others have arrived without all the work :-)   However, unless I outlive my father and my grandfathers, I shall not be worrying about the scene in twenty years time.

 

Just my personal perspective. 

 

David

[Mike Bellamy]

Skytrex are still going. Not many would be satisfied with the quality of the Y6 Tram or Sentinal Shunter though so maybe that contributed to the company going bust the first time around?

  

I seem to recall that was due to other parts of the company, not the railway stuff

I believe that the new Skytrex business was bought out of liquidation by a former partner who helped create the original model ship and wargame business and current employees.

 

As for the £6 to £8 million reasons for the original failure I suggest you read these two newspaper reports about the bankruptcy of the owner - it would seem that a lot of people lost a lot of money . . . . . . . . .

 

http://www.loughboroughecho.net/news/local-news/dentist-dr-john-hammond-been-6132789

 

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Model-railway-man-declared-bankrupt-pound-8m-debt/story-19821563-detail/story.html

 

There are other internet references to an appearance on a BBC programme "The Sheriffs are Coming" but as it seems there is to be a court case, I'll leave it to others to investigate further . . . . . . . . .

 

 

.

[ozzyo]

  

 

I believe that the new Skytrex business was bought out of liquidation by a former partner who helped create the original model ship and wargame business and current employees.

 

As for the £6 to £8 million reasons for the original failure I suggest you read these two newspaper reports about the bankruptcy of the owner - it would seem that a lot of people lost a lot of money . . . . . . . . .

 

http://www.loughboroughecho.net/news/local-news/dentist-dr-john-hammond-been-6132789

 

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Model-railway-man-declared-bankrupt-pound-8m-debt/story-19821563-detail/story.html

 

There are other internet references to an appearance on a BBC programme "The Sheriffs are Coming" but as it seems there is to be a court case, I'll leave it to others to investigate further . . . . . . . . .

 

 

.

 

Well, well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!