Building the LNER J77 - Worsdell cab & Fletcher cab

[7mm Mick]

Mick,

 

If you look at a couple of postings back, you'll see that I too found a photo of 68409; though I think this was taken at Middlesborough. This loco came to Hull some time in 1958 and, like so very many ex North Eastern Locos, finished its days there.

 

And Mick, here's a photo just for you. In a class of 'oddballs', this one was unique, as it had an arc roofed Fletcher style cab with large, square windows, J72 type combined splashers and sandboxes and different profiled mainframes. It also had all three sets of driving wheel springs under the mainframes, unlike any other J77. Just to complete this 'litany of the unusual', the photo shows the loco derailed; I assume this was at Alexandra Dock shed though that large LMS loco immediately behind?

 

As ever Mick, many thanks for the kind words; they are always much appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

 

So with your last couple of posts you've identified the two J77's I plan to build. I have the two photos above and can confirm neither are at Hull. 8440 was transferred out towards the back end of 48 to somewhere further north. I have a couple of pictures of this loco in BR livery, sadly one shows it bereft of its tank and dignity in North Road Scrap Yard.

 

She is as you say, one of only two BTP's built at York and could almost be mistaken for a later Worsdell conversion as per your first build, however as you say the cab is a flat roof Flecher version. I can not find why York chose this pattern and no one else did?

 

For this reason I chose 8440 to build as it really is unique, the picture of it off the road looks quite odd and can only assume the midland offender struck her with some force!

 

ATB Mick

[mikemeg]

Hi Mike,

 

So with your last couple of posts you've identified the two J77's I plan to build. I have the two photos above and can confirm neither are at Hull. 8440 was transferred out towards the back end of 48 to somewhere further north. I have a couple of pictures of this loco in BR livery, sadly one shows it bereft of its tank and dignity in North Road Scrap Yard.

 

She is as you say, one of only two BTP's built at York and could almost be mistaken for a later Worsdell conversion as per your first build, however as you say the cab is a flat roof Flecher version. I can not find why York chose this pattern and no one else did?

 

For this reason I chose 8440 to build as it really is unique, the picture of it off the road looks quite odd and can only assume the midland offender struck her with some force!

 

ATB Mick

 

Mick,

 

According to the August 1950 stock list and shed allocations, 68440 was allocated to Hull Alexandra Dock so, perhaps, returned to Hull. 68409 came to Hull around the time that Middlesborough and Newport sheds closed, both replaced by the then new shed at Thornaby.

 

Cheers

 

MIke

Edited October 31, 2014 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

The boiler handrails have now been fitted, as have the NER tapered buffers. I also turned up some tank breathers, though these will be in the kit as castings. The white metal dome casting has been fettled and then seated on the boiler, feathering the seating as much as possible. Failing to seat the dome properly can really detract from a model.

 

So as far as the kit goes, this is now complete. I will spend a few more hours adding additional details to this model; organ pipe whistle, sand pipes and the pipework just forward of the rear driving wheels will be fabricated and added, though I will do these as batches of three or six, when all three models are complete.

 

Anyway, Arthur's kit for the Worsdell cab J77; a lovely little loco!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited October 31, 2014 by mikemeg

[micknich2003]

Mike, a loverly job, and now for a change and forty six years on, time for you to resurect your "Patriot" of 1968. Yours, Mick.

[mikemeg]

Mike, a loverly job, and now for a change and forty six years on, time for you to resurect your "Patriot" of 1968. Yours, Mick.

 

Thanks, Mick. As for the Patriot of 1968 that has long since disappeared and I'm not sure that I would now be at all satisfied with it, were it still around. Perhaps, in the not too distant future, I will find the time to do an unrebuilt Patriot, though now I would use an r-t-r model as the basis.

 

One of the problems of modelling part of Hull, in 1950, is the almost bewildering array of locomotive classes which were based in or ran to and through Hull at that time. As I have oft remarked, oh to be able to spend a day in mid 1950 watching that seemingly unending procession of trains.

 

Arthur was fortunate enough to have seen not only those days but the even earlier days of the LNER and LMS and to have seen many of those days as far back as the war years. We can only look at the myriad photographs of those times and just marvel, perhaps with a nostalgic sigh, at a very different world (though I don't think many of us would exchange our world now, for the world then) and a totally different railway.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 1, 2014 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

If I hark back to one of the earlier photos of the Fletcher cab version(s) of this class and kit, then one quandry will become obvious, namely how to sequence the assembly of the cab floor and cab details. Normally, with an arc cab roof, this roof can be left off until all of the cab detailing is completed; everything being added through the vacant cab roof space. On these Fletcher cabs, as with many other loco types of this vintage, the cab roof is an integral part of the cabside and tank side platework; thus there is no vacant roof space. 

 

If both the cab front and cab rear are fixed in place, early in the assembly sequence, then adding the cab floor and cab interior details becomes very difficult, if not almost impossible. So, the assembly sequence which would seem most sensible, is to leave the assembly and fitting of the cab rear/bunker front until everything inside the cab has been assembed and fitted and painted. The cab rear details - sandboxes, locker, coal hole, window guard irons will then be fitted to the cab rear and, once this assembly is completed and painted, then the cab rear sub-assembly will be fitted.

 

This might also illustrate why test building these kits is an essential part of their development.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 1, 2014 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

The second superstructure etch has now been folded up, the roof profiled and the side tanks soldered up, after filling both side tanks with sheet lead. I actually bought a roll of lead flashing six metres long by 150 mm (6 inches) wide by 2.5 mm thick - probably enough to weight several hundred models, far more than I shall ever build - from which I cut the fillings for the side tanks, in this case 44 mm x 12 mm. I also clip out the corner of the cut pieces, to allow for the handrail brackets and the tank filler casting stems at the front of the tanks.

 

I normally aim for an all up weight of seven or eight ounces for these 0-6-0's and 0-6-2's, so the side tanks do allow for about two to three ounces of weight to be added. The remaining weight is added to the boiler, in the shape of a rolled coil of lead sheet, and to the bunker. Some additional weight can be added between the mainframes, where these are hidden by the side tanks. It is worth adding that all lead, whether sheet or shot, is stuck in using Araldite. The problems, attendant with using PVA to stick lead, are all too well known!

 

The difference between the two models, at least the major visible difference, is already apparent with the shape of the cab windows. So far both models are pretty well in step, but can I resist the temptation to push on with just one of them?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 1, 2014 by mikemeg

[7mm Mick]

Mick,

 

According to the August 1950 stock list and shed allocations, 68440 was allocated to Hull Alexandra Dock so, perhaps, returned to Hull. 68409 came to Hull around the time that Middlesborough and Newport sheds closed, both replaced by the then new shed at Thornaby.

 

Cheers

 

MIke

Hi Mike,

 

I based my assumption on 8440's allocation on this thread here;

 

http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9867 and here;

 

http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9888&p=105169#p105169

 

I did have a chat with Mick Nicholson about the photo of 8440 off the road and he thought it was elsewhere other than Hull because there a J94 present and they were not allocated to Hull until late fifties? I will be interested to see how the removable bunker will work as I may have to adopt this method in future?

 

ATB Mick

[mikemeg]

Both models have now had their cab floors assembled and fitted, as well as the cab fronts which have been soldered in place; the one with square windows, the other with round windows. What's the betting that I inadvertently mix these two, to produce two of the round/square 'hybrids'. Both cab interiors can now be done, while the cab rears are still open.

 

Anyway, still keeping both models exactly in step, both boilers have been rolled and seam soldered, after drilling out the appropriate dome position and filling and then re-drilling the locations for the Ross pop valves, in the round window version. The hole for the 'trumpet' in the firebox, for the square window version, is already etched and simply needs just a little opening out. Neither boiler is yet fixed, both are simply held horizontal by the fit between the side tanks; a good test of whether (or not) the boiler is circular and of exactly the correct diameter!

 

Now to detail both boilers and build both smokeboxes.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 4, 2014 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

Both boilers have had their circular former soldered into the front end, after soldering an 8BA nut to the rear of each of the boiler formers. The formers are soldered into the boiler around 2 mm from the end of the boiler, to allow for the accommodation of the brass ring which forms the aesthetic joint between the boiler and the smokebox.

 

Both smokebox frames have been folded and soldered, again with an 8BA nut on the portion which sits on the footplate. 

 

My normal way of soldering these 8BA nuts is to tin the area where the nut will be positioned and then poke a cocktail stick through the hole, The 8BA nut is them screwed onto the end of the cocktail stick until it is tight against the tinned surface. Then a quick wipe around with the iron, allow the whole lot to cool and then unscrew the cocktail stick and withdraw it. This method stops any ingress of solder into the threaded part of the nut and, even if a small amount of solder does get into the threads, the 8BA screw will soon remove it. This is very much easier than trying to solder the nut with the screw in place; too easy to solder the whole lot up solid.

 

So, day's end and supper and a glass (or two) of Shiraz now beckon. And both models are still exactly in step; perhaps I will finish them both together!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 5, 2014 by mikemeg

[micknich2003]

A glass of Shiraz indeed, when I first knew you, it was pint of Hull Brewery Mild, all 1/10 worth. Those were the days!

[mikemeg]

A glass of Shiraz indeed, when I first knew you, it was pint of Hull Brewery Mild, all 1/10 worth. Those were the days!

 

It was indeed a pint of dark mild in those days; is Hull Bewery mild still available? But circumstances, tastes and, most importantly, ability to deal with liquid volume, all change and so by a combination of choice and necessity, now I drink something of much less volume, and a very different taste.

 

Cheers Mick

 

Mike

Edited November 5, 2014 by mikemeg

[micknich2003]

Mike, Hull Brewery disapered years ago, taken over by Mansfield, and they too I believe now history. Localy, the young "Serving Wenches", look at you daft if you ask for "Mild".

[mikemeg]

Mike, Hull Brewery disapered years ago, taken over by Mansfield, and they too I believe now history. Localy, the young "Serving Wenches", look at you daft if you ask for "Mild".

 

Yes, I remember Hull Brewery being taken over by Mansfield, though I never knew whether Mansfield continued to brew Hull Brewery Ales, or whether they used their own brand names. Mick, can you remember that smell of malted barley which almost always pervaded the streets around the brewery, in Hull.

 

Anyway, more work has been done on the two Fletcher cab J77's with the completion of the smokeboxes. The smokebox wrappers are rolled using the boiler roller and are rolled to the diameter of the front former. The bottom portion of each side of the wrapper is then 'unrolled'; simply straightened out and the tight radius reverse curve is then formed, on each side. The forming of this tight radius is assisted by the presence of half etched lines, which do allow it to be formed quite easily. Finally, the smokebox front sheet is soldered up to the smokebox and everything cleaned up and burnished with the fibre glass brush.

 

It is now becoming much easier to do everything in duplicate, so keeping the two models in step. Mind you, I think triplication might stretch the self discipline to breaking point though I did, once, scratch build three LNER 3500 gallon tenders together.

 

So the two Fletcher cab models and the completed Worsdell cab J77 all lined up 'fer a phertergraph', as might be said in Hull.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 5, 2014 by mikemeg

[7mm Mick]

Lovely Mike,

 

All you need now are some old bits of rope hanging off the handrails and a push bike or three and they'll be for for duty on dock. Oh and some pilot numbers chalked on or on boards!

 

ATB Mick

[mikemeg]

Lovely Mike,

 

All you need now are some old bits of rope hanging off the handrails and a push bike or three and they'll be for for duty on dock. Oh and some pilot numbers chalked on or on boards!

 

ATB Mick

 

Thanks Mick. I guess there's an element of nostalgia, for all of us, in making these models, though I never did see the full complement of steam shunting locos in Hull. Just a year or two too late to see that. You'll forgive me if I say that you are way too young to have seen it; yet, for all that, those days still resonate with you.

 

So, while the smokeboxes are unencumbered by handrail stanchions, lamp irons, etc., an opportunity to fit the chimneys. For me, fitting both chimneys and domes is a very specific activity and is not just 'sticking them on'. For both chimneys and domes, I always use Araldite (the quick or slow setting variety) as this gives enough time to really seat the casting and allows any slight irregularities on the underside of the casting, to be filled with the glue.

 

The chimney(s)/dome(s) are then left for twelve hours for the glue to cure and set, after which any glue which has oozed out of the seating is very carefully scraped off. The seating can then be filed and lightly abaded with emery to achieve the feathering. This can take up to an hour but the results are well worth the effort. Nothing mars a model more than badly seated chimney and dome.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 6, 2014 by mikemeg

[Mrkirtley800]

Mike, very interesting to hear you take great care with chimneys and domes.  I am the same and often have to fit them several times before I am completely happy.  The only slight difference is that I use car body filler as the adhesive.  It used to be called 'Catalloy'  and like Araldite comes as a two part adhesive.  I have used this for 40 years and never had anything come adrift.  If it is a brass chimney/dome the joint can be parted with heat from a soldering iron.  I have been so particular over the years that if my wife sees a loco with a chimney a bit askew at a show, she says so, and usually I have to take her for a coffee to avoid upsetting any other modellers.  On one occasion we were looking at some very nice S gauge locomotives in a glass case at a large show.  Sure enough, one of the chimneys was slightly out of the vertical, and sure enough she spotted it.  You can imagine the rest!!

Derek

[mikemeg]

Both boilers have now been detailed with wash out plugs and boiler bands. Arthur has experimented with the provision of boiler bands, using both brass and nickel silver. These were half etched on .008" brass, so nominally four thou thick - .004" - and they are very fine. Once soldered to the boiler, then a few light strokes of a fine file or emery can further thin them towards the 1/8" thickness (approximately) of the prototype, which is .00166" or one point six six thou.

 

The domes and trumpet safety valve are not yet fixed to the boiler and the photograph should show me how much more needs to be done to seat them properly. In this regard - seating boiler castings - the white metal versions are probably easier to fettle than the brass ones, though the casting quality is much better on the brass castings than on the white metal ones.

 

So, once I'm satisfied wih the seating, then these components will be fixed to their respective boiler sub-assemblies. The boiler/ smokebox sub-assemblies are, themselves, still not fixed to the loco superstructure and won't be until later in the build. Equally, the smokeboxes are also not fixed to the boilers, though the screws securing them are tightened fairly well.

 

Just for the avoidance of doubt and to avoid invoking the 'perpendicular scrutiny' from Derek's wife (see post above) there is some parallax on the photo below, resulting in the chimney of the rearmost model appearing to lean forward. But it ain't necessarily so!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 12, 2014 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

All of the internal details have now been added within the cab, for the square window version of this J77. This includes the detailed backhead, the brake standard and the various items attached to the interior of the cab rear - sandboxes, locker, coal door, etc. Of couse, all of this is now almost invisible!

 

The cab rear is a two layer etch and Arthur has made provision for the fitting of the guard irons, over the windows, either horizontally or vertically. This was yet another variation on these locos. The inner layer of the cab rear has etched holes along all four sides of the window apertures. Once the two layers of the cab rear are soldered together, then the appropriate set of holes (either vertical or horizontal) can be drilled out through the outer layer, using a .2 mm drill.

 

I then fitted small pieces of 5 amp fuse wire, which is around .010" diameter, through these tiny holes, tightened each of the bars so produced, to achieve a measure of straightness, and then cut them off inside. The final operations, on the cab rear, were then to add the square window frames, paint the interior black and prime part of the exterior.

 

After all of that, then the acid test. Does the cab rear actually go into the cab, engage properly with the slots in the footplate and recess into the cab by the requisite distance - in this case around 1 mm. Answer is, it does. So the cab rear is fixed and then the bunker rear is flared, assembled and fitted.

 

From this angle, the photograph shows the half round brass ring, which forms the joint between the boiler and the smokebox. Half of this half round ring actually slides inside the smokebox wrapper, effectively leaving a quarter round ring actually visible.

 

Now to do the same on the round window version, though this has an etching for the window guard irons.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 14, 2014 by mikemeg

[7mm Mick]

Thanks Mick. I guess there's an element of nostalgia, for all of us, in making these models, though I never did see the full complement of steam shunting locos in Hull. Just a year or two too late to see that. You'll forgive me if I say that you are way too young to have seen it; yet, for all that, those days still resonate with you.

 

So, while the smokeboxes are unencumbered by handrail stanchions, lamp irons, etc., an opportunity to fit the chimneys. For me, fitting both chimneys and domes is a very specific activity and is not just 'sticking them on'. For both chimneys and domes, I always use Araldite (the quick or slow setting variety) as this gives enough time to really seat the casting and allows any slight irregularities on the underside of the casting, to be filled with the glue.

 

The chimney(s)/dome(s) are then left for twelve hours for the glue to cure and set, after which any glue which has oozed out of the seating is very carefully scraped off. The seating can then be filed and lightly abaded with emery to achieve the feathering. This can take up to an hour but the results are well worth the effort. Nothing mars a model more than badly seated chimney and dome.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Mike,

 

The J77's are really coming together now and look lovely. To quote your earlier post those days really do resonate with me for many reasons and I suppose I'm a very nostalgic person, loving the railways of the East Riding in post war England. However as you say I am far too young to remember these days and was but a distant twinkle in my dad's eye, that said I grew up on steam, yes preservation steam but it is still my earliest memory and with a love of preservation then my interest in the 'real' railway grew. With that in mind here's a video I shot (not great quality) of something which you would of seen all too often at one time and I was very lucky to catch this time. I hope it jogs memories and inspires as it inspires me, oh that NER Whistle.......

 

 

ATB Mick

[mikemeg]

Mick,

 

Great video and of a sole survivor of its class - D49's - and, like all of these sights and sounds so lovingly preserved, cannot fail to inspire and to remind. And, once again, many thanks for your interest and for your kind words; they are always much appreciated.

 

Just like you, I model an era which I never saw, either. The years immediately after Nationalisation - specifically mid 1950 - when the railways were struggling to establish an identity for the newly created British Railways and still in the midst of rectifying the privations of the recently ended war, with the enormous impact which that event had made on the infrastructure, men and machines which were the railway.

 

For me, it was the combination of the legacy of the old 'big four', which was still very apparent in liveries, engineering practice, etc. and the even older legacy of the pre-groupling companies, which was still equally apparent; nowhere more so than the legacy of the old North Eastern. Again, like you, it was Hull and its railways which were and are the inspiration for the models; hardly surprising as that is where this love affair with the railways began.

 

So, the opportunity to build a good proportion of the locomotive types of the old North Eastern, by way of Arthur's kits, was simply too good an opportunity to miss. If, in so doing I can contribute, in some small way, to the development and release of these kits, then that is an added gratification and makes these builds even more rewarding. What Arthur has achieved, with his range of North Eastern kits, is astounding by any measure and it is a great pleasure to be associated with him and with his models.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 18, 2014 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

With the completion of the cab rear, bunker and coal rails, on both models, the bulk of the locomotive superstructure is now complete. There is still some detailing to add to both bodies but that will be done once both of the chassis' are completed. Both models have also been fully weighted, so that the centre of gravity lies just aft of the centre pair of driving wheels. Each one now weighs in at around seven ounces, which will become eight ounces with the addition of the motor, gearbox, etc.

 

The first of the chassis' has been assembled with all hornblocks and hornguides fitted and all frame spacers soldered up. The second chassis will be brought up to this same stage before pushing on to complete both chassis' and then finish all of the body detailing.

 

As these are test builds, to check the dimensions, fit, assembly sequence and comprehensiveness of the etches and castings in the kit, then the assembly sequence of these builds may often need to be adjusted to achieve those objectives, so that the fully verified artwork masters and casting masters can be sent to the appropriate suppliers a.s.a.p.

 

So, I think that I will finish both models pretty well in parallel. There are still a couple of details to add to the Worsdell cab model; the guard irons, front and rear and the three link couplings and these will be done together for all three models.

 

From building locos in the 69xxx number range, I now seem to be focussed on locos in the 68xxx number range with, from rear to front, 68392 (Worsdell cab rebuild), 68409 and 68429 (Fletcher cab rebuilds) as they will be.

 

I wonder what's next?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 18, 2014 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

The second chassis has now been assembled, with the compensating beams fitted and both chassis have had the two pairs of underslung driving wheel springs fitted. Next job is to complete the fitting of the brake hangar stretchers on the middle and rear sets of driving wheels and the brake hangar brackets on the front sets of driving wheels, prior to fitting the brakes onto their spindles.

 

The sandwich buffer beam - steel/wood - has also been assembled and fitted to the square windowed model. I cheated on this and used a .050 fillet of plasticard as the wood part of the sandwich, with the nickel silver etched bolted buffer beam. This actually doesn't look as bad as I thought it might, gven that on the prototypes, the footplate was not extended to cover this buffer beam addition.

 

One trick perhaps worth mentioning is the knob, on the edge of the smokebox door, by which that door is opened. The white metal casting, for the smokebox door, does have a representation of this but in only half relief. I normally file this off, then drill the door at the position of this knob, to allow one of the Alan Gibson brass handrail stanchions to be sunk into the hole leaving only the tiny globe at the end of the stanchion protruding. Once primed and painted the hole for the handrail does not show.

 

As an aside, today I bought a new pair of rechargeable AA batteries for the trusty old Olympus Camedia digital camera; having had the original pair of rechargeable batteries for well over seven years. These old batteries must have been recharged hundreds of times but were so old and 'cream crackered' that they would only retain their charge for a matter of hours. Us Yorkshire folk do like to squeeze the last bit of usage from 'owt we've bought'. They were probably a fire hazard by now. Anyway I say this because the digital photos are now much clearer with better definition - and I thought it was the camera that was dying.

 

For this photograph I got down low enough to avoid the parallax, whiich causes the chimneys and domes to appear to lean forward.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 20, 2014 by mikemeg

[Rumblestripe]

Those are mighty handsome chuffers! Lovely job.

[mikemeg]

Those are mighty handsome chuffers! Lovely job.

 

Thank you. Your comments are much appreciated. There was something about the locos of the late 19th and early 20th century which was just right; they were lovely things.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 20, 2014 by mikemeg