model-trains Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Hi I have started this topic, after a friend on the forum suggested it may be worth doing so, as there seem to be so many items to consider when installing signals in a software controlled package. As the various software packages progress and signals and decoders become more available, more and more people appear to be considering installing signals on their layouts. Have you installed signals on your layout, controlled by a software package? Have you experienced problems getting them to work, configuring them, or making them look right in your software layout plan? Have you installed several manufacturers signals? Do you find some better than others? Are you at a cross roads, wondering whether to start to install signals but are not sure what is best as there is so much choice? Or have you installed them without any issues and they work as you planned without any hitches? I bet there are a lot of people waiting to hear from you ;o) It would be nice to hear from anyone interested in installing signals on their layout, or those that have already done so. Hopefully people will feel they want to join in the discussions as everyone's views and experiences has to in turn help others no matter what stage you are at. Every system will have advantages and disadvantages, signal, de-coder or software. What are your views and/or experiences with any of the above? Thank you in advance for your comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 25, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 25, 2014 We use RailRoad and Co to simulate an NX panel, which then drives Digitrax SE8C modules, these then control all of our (colour light) signals, these are scratchbuilt and behave exactly as their prototypes would (including the SPAD indicator), correct aspect sequencing, approach controlled, flank protection etc. Train detection handles signal replacement. If anyone wants any more information please feel free to ask - I don't bite and I do know a little about the subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 Good morning Thank you for sharing the system you use, the screen grab of the layout looks impressive. It is clear to see, Up, Down main lines, loops and branches and C's for points. Can you explain a little more about the system and the various icons, which may control block, which control signals, how they are controlled, etc. I am sure others would find this interesting too. Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Software control - I'd use JMRI for it. The support for UK signalling is good, and it can be expanded if required. It supports entry-exit control (added since the tutorials were written). But I might be biased as I wrote the tutorial (clinic) on UK signalling for JMRI. Hardware - if using signalling which is controlled by DCC instructions and colour lights, then I'd be looking for signal control boards which support the enhanced accessory protocol (ie. you can send an instruction which is "Signal 123 show aspect 5", which is far more efficient than sending multiple instructions to turn off the red (one address) and turn on the green (another address), etc.. ). One example of this sort of board is the "Signalist" from Harman DCC - there are other makers with equivalent boards. But, this approach means that the controlling software and DCC hardware must be able to support it: JMRI supports it and many command stations are able to pass the instructions through to the track. It is possible to build signalling in hardware with appropriate control boards. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 Interesting Nigel If anyone is interested in finding out more about JMRI what would you suggest? Consider the new comer to model railway, the aim of the thread is to hopefully provide information to help others know more about the various systems. Websites, YouTube, etc??? Links? What hardware would a person need if they chose to try JMRI? Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted October 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2014 At the moment I am experimenting in controlling semaphore signals with the rocrail software. I'm at the stage where I have some signals built and operated by servos controlled manually from the software. I'm currently looking at sensing and route automation although the main objective was simply controlling things from a mimic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2014 Our detection and signal modules are Digitrax. We use RailRoad and Co software because at the time (a few years back) it was the only one which came anywhere near what we wanted, for our needs it still is. Looking at the image I posted, I'll describe a few things. The bits below the good yard (roughly the bottom half of the screen) are there for information only, and form no part of the actual signalling. I use signals to communicate between the fiddle yard panel and this one, the station panel. We have a licence for the Netx version of RR but found it unreliable and so I use a different method of communicating, basically a panel can set dummy aspects on dummy signals, these changing indicate to the other panels that certain things have happened.such as a route has been set or another route is free to be set or if a signal on the station clears then set it to this aspect. The black blobs in the track change to red when occupied. The grey blobs by each signal are the buttons, used in route setting. As the panel emulates an NX (entrance/exit) panel the signalman presses the button at the origin and then the button at the destination (just like the real thing) and the route is set, assuming no conflicts, between those two points, some signals may clear immediately, some need a track circuit occupied for a length of time before they clear (approach controlled). The signalman does not worry about the aspects, the software deals with it all. The panel is fully interlocked and points drive to provide flank protection as required. I think that covers the basics - ask away if you/anyone want anymore info Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted October 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2014 Banbury now has most of the signals working. The Signalist board is used along with the adaptor board to work the Dapol semaphores. As there are only two colour light signals I have used a couple of Train Tronics boards, one for each three aspect signal. These are set up on JMRI panel pro. At present they are manually set so they are not always used at a show. The next stage is to add block detection and then they will be automatically controlled as time permits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon H Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Have you installed signals on your layout, controlled by a software package? My first software controlled signalling installation was back in 1986. The software package was called 'BBC Basic', and the signals responded to the current sensing track circuits, with all I/O going via four bits of the 'User Port' working as a synchronous serial data link. Use of DCC is certainly not a pre-requisite for doing this kind of thing. :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 There are a lot of packages available now such that you have quite a choice. Most have a free download that you can try, and the better packages in my opinion are completely free. I would recommend that you download some and have a go especially the free ones because there is nothing more frustrating than getting your heart set on something and realising that you cannot afford all the extras you need. There are people on this thread that have experience and are willing to answer any questions so you can't go wrong. I would try them in this order:- JMRI Rocrail RR&Co Others that you can download and try but might need a bit more support to get working:- CTI (TrainBrain) SSI JMRI and Rocrail include UK signal systems (JMRI has much better support for more eclectic signals - LMS speed signalling anyone?) while RR&Co needs quite a bit of configuration to achieve similar results. CTI and SSI I have never got to work, but I know others have so it must be possible! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 At the moment I am experimenting in controlling semaphore signals with the rocrail software. I'm at the stage where I have some signals built and operated by servos controlled manually from the software. I'm currently looking at sensing and route automation although the main objective was simply controlling things from a mimic. Hello BoD How do you find the RocRail software, is it easy to use? Interesting, setting up signals with servos and sensing for route automation. Many of these things are over my head and I am sure there are plenty of new comers who could be interested. Feel free to share more and include images. Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 Our detection and signal modules are Digitrax. We use RailRoad and Co software because at the time (a few years back) it was the only one which came anywhere near what we wanted, for our needs it still is. Looking at the image I posted, I'll describe a few things. The bits below the good yard (roughly the bottom half of the screen) are there for information only, and form no part of the actual signalling. I use signals to communicate between the fiddle yard panel and this one, the station panel. We have a licence for the Netx version of RR but found it unreliable and so I use a different method of communicating, basically a panel can set dummy aspects on dummy signals, these changing indicate to the other panels that certain things have happened.such as a route has been set or another route is free to be set or if a signal on the station clears then set it to this aspect. The black blobs in the track change to red when occupied. The grey blobs by each signal are the buttons, used in route setting. As the panel emulates an NX (entrance/exit) panel the signalman presses the button at the origin and then the button at the destination (just like the real thing) and the route is set, assuming no conflicts, between those two points, some signals may clear immediately, some need a track circuit occupied for a length of time before they clear (approach controlled). The signalman does not worry about the aspects, the software deals with it all. The panel is fully interlocked and points drive to provide flank protection as required. I think that covers the basics - ask away if you/anyone want anymore info Thank you for the update. It is good to include the image in your first message and the link in this message, I am sure this will help people find out more. Did you make your own signals? Have you signals with and without route indicators? What decoder did you use? Are they easy to set up in the RailRoad and Co software? Thank you for sharing the system you use, please feel free to contribute any time. You may want to ask others with other systems questions. please feel free to contribute anytime. The aim of the thread is for other members, including new comers, to read about the various systems available, including points, signals and other 3rd party items that together help make up your layout. What you think of the system you use, advantages and disadvantages you have experienced and how you got round possible problems. Anything you think will help others. Thanks again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 Banbury now has most of the signals working. The Signalist board is used along with the adaptor board to work the Dapol semaphores. As there are only two colour light signals I have used a couple of Train Tronics boards, one for each three aspect signal. These are set up on JMRI panel pro. At present they are manually set so they are not always used at a show. The next stage is to add block detection and then they will be automatically controlled as time permits. Hello roundhouse Thank you for contributing and sharing the system you use. Another JMRI user, maybe some information in the thread would help others, links, how to set up, what is needed, etc. The Signalist decoder board looks quite flexible, did you find it easy to use and set up. How did you find the Train-Tronics signals etc. Your comments are useful, they will help others coming into model trains. Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 My first software controlled signalling installation was back in 1986. The software package was called 'BBC Basic', and the signals responded to the current sensing track circuits, with all I/O going via four bits of the 'User Port' working as a synchronous serial data link. Use of DCC is certainly not a pre-requisite for doing this kind of thing. :-) Hello Gordon H Your first software package was BBC Basic. You send me back a few years Gordon, my first computer was a Tandy TRS80 green screen, those were early days, I followed that with a BBC micro computer, the first ones available and only by mail order. I got an add on for it, a second processor, those were the days MS Dos and PC Dos were fighting for the market, the rest is history, Bill Gates surged ahead. I didn't have model trains then, BBC Basic, that is interesting, thank you. What system do you use now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 There are a lot of packages available now such that you have quite a choice. Most have a free download that you can try, and the better packages in my opinion are completely free. I would recommend that you download some and have a go especially the free ones because there is nothing more frustrating than getting your heart set on something and realising that you cannot afford all the extras you need. There are people on this thread that have experience and are willing to answer any questions so you can't go wrong. I would try them in this order:- JMRI Rocrail RR&Co Others that you can download and try but might need a bit more support to get working:- CTI (TrainBrain) SSI JMRI and Rocrail include UK signal systems (JMRI has much better support for more eclectic signals - LMS speed signalling anyone?) while RR&Co needs quite a bit of configuration to achieve similar results. CTI and SSI I have never got to work, but I know others have so it must be possible! Hello Suzie This is excellent advise and brilliant as you have included links Please feel free to contribute, all information in the thread is aimed at helping others learn more of other systems and helping new comers read peoples experiences and reviews, hopefully with guidance and pictures where possible. Model trains is expanding and there is as you say more choice than ever before. There is also more options for signals, and decoders but software must be ready to take them and easy to use. Thank you for your contribution, please feel free to add anything you feel may help others members and lets not forget beginners. Technology should see more people coming into, or back into, the hobby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2014 Thank you for the update. It is good to include the image in your first message and the link in this message, I am sure this will help people find out more. Did you make your own signals? Have you signals with and without route indicators? What decoder did you use? Are they easy to set up in the RailRoad and Co software? Thank you for sharing the system you use, please feel free to contribute any time. You may want to ask others with other systems questions. please feel free to contribute anytime. The aim of the thread is for other members, including new comers, to read about the various systems available, including points, signals and other 3rd party items that together help make up your layout. What you think of the system you use, advantages and disadvantages you have experienced and how you got round possible problems. Anything you think will help others. Thanks again Hi ??? Yes - all of our signals are scratch built, all the main running signals have the required feathers and stencils (working), the (working) ground signals are missing their stencils and I doubt they will be provided but ... The Digitrax SE8C is a fine piece of kit for colour light signals, it includes 8 block sections and 8 points - well worth a look for those inclined. It's very easy to use and the RR&Co software works very well - I can tweak the panel without needing access to the layout, helpful when I'm a few hundred miles from it. I would disagree that RR&Co needs "quite a bit of configuration" - yes it needs some, but once the principles are learnt its quick to make a simple panel - however, like any package, time spent tweaking it will be rewarded with a better result but each to their own (and RR&Co is not a cheap option any more - were we starting today, it's unlikely we would use RR&Co). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon H Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Hello Gordon H Your first software package was BBC Basic. You send me back a few years Gordon, my first computer was a Tandy TRS80 green screen, those were early days, I followed that with a BBC micro computer, the first ones available and only by mail order. I got an add on for it, a second processor, those were the days MS Dos and PC Dos were fighting for the market, the rest is history, Bill Gates surged ahead. I didn't have model trains then, BBC Basic, that is interesting, thank you. What system do you use now? My first 'software package' was actually Compukit UK101 8k Basic, but that never got as far as controlling trains as I couldn't get the tape interface used for file storage to work reliably enough. I don't really get much of a chance to dabble with any kind of layout control software these days as I spend increasing amounts of time working with layout interfacing hardware of one kind or another, usually MERG related. Nearest thing I have to a PC software controlled layout now is my 'Hysteresis Loop' exhibition demo track which uses QuickBasic running in MS-DOS on a Win '95 machine. I have seen demonstrations of JMRI and how it can be used, but struggle to overcome my pre-conceived ideas of how such things ought to work, and particularly the terminology they use, e.g. JMRI uses the term 'Turnouts' for outputs regardless of their function, which to me is complete nonsense and should be high on the list of things that need correcting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60059 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 We use RailRoad and Co to simulate an NX panel, which then drives Digitrax SE8C modules, these then control all of our (colour light) signals, these are scratchbuilt and behave exactly as their prototypes would (including the SPAD indicator), correct aspect sequencing, approach controlled, flank protection etc. Train detection handles signal replacement. Clipboard01.jpg If anyone wants any more information please feel free to ask - I don't bite and I do know a little about the subject. We use RailRoad and Co to simulate an NX panel, which then drives Digitrax SE8C modules, these then control all of our (colour light) signals, these are scratchbuilt and behave exactly as their prototypes would (including the SPAD indicator), correct aspect sequencing, approach controlled, flank protection etc. Train detection handles signal replacement. Clipboard01.jpg If anyone wants any more information please feel free to ask - I don't bite and I do know a little about the subject. Hi Since you have offered can i ask a few questions, I am currently building a layout which I am going to signal with 4 aspect signal, as it will have long running sections, I had intended to use heathcote units to give prototypical operation, however i have seen the digitrax Sec8 unit, can this be set up the same way, i assume block detection would be required. If a section is occupied will the proceding signals change automatically? And does the digitrax modules work with my lenz lv100 command station? Am I right in saying that the sec8 can also operate 8 points as well as the 8 individual signal heads? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 4, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2014 Hi Since you have offered can i ask a few questions, I am currently building a layout which I am going to signal with 4 aspect signal, as it will have long running sections, I had intended to use heathcote units to give prototypical operation, however i have seen the digitrax Sec8 unit, can this be set up the same way, i assume block detection would be required. If a section is occupied will the proceding signals change automatically? And does the digitrax modules work with my lenz lv100 command station? Am I right in saying that the sec8 can also operate 8 points as well as the 8 individual signal heads? Thanks Yes the SE8C can operate 8 points but it does not perform aspect sequencing, so no automatic changing of signals based on block occupancy. It's possible to use the SE8C without any DCC or with Lenz (a "foreign" DCC) but I've no experience of that and it would add to the complexity. See here for more details - http://www.digitrax.com/products/detection-signaling/se8c/ 4-aspects could be done, it would eat into the available "heads" (it has 32 available) - however there is probably still enough to do it for most small / medium layouts. We have one signal which can display a flashing yellow under the right circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60059 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Yes the SE8C can operate 8 points but it does not perform aspect sequencing, so no automatic changing of signals based on block occupancy. It's possible to use the SE8C without any DCC or with Lenz (a "foreign" DCC) but I've no experience of that and it would add to the complexity. See here for more details - http://www.digitrax.com/products/detection-signaling/se8c/ 4-aspects could be done, it would eat into the available "heads" (it has 32 available) - however there is probably still enough to do it for most small / medium layouts. We have one signal which can display a flashing yellow under the right circumstances. Thanks I think i'll stick to the heathcote units then for the aspect sequencing sounds more straight forward at least. I was hoping to add a flashing double yellow for the fiddle entrance, for something a little different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 If you want anything as complex as flashing aspects you need to think about using a software application like JMRI. The Signalist SC1 decoder supports UK flashing aspects, and JMRI has support for flashing aspects too (as per 2003 rulebook) but you might find your Lenz command station a bit restricting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 Hi all I see a problem with signalling and wonder if anyone has got an answer? Our layouts are three dimensional, our computer screens are two dimensional plan views. How do you define on your layout plan view, which way a signals is for (other than place on the left of the track) This can be made worse if a two way track is used, signalling both ways. I welcome comments as to how you have got round this problem. PJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Railways are pretty much one dimensional when you break them down, and yes it is simply a case of putting the signal on the left in the direction of travel. Software like JMRI will automatically do this for you if you tick the right boxes. When you break out of the single dimension you have a junction signal to control which way you go and it becomes one dimensional again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Friedman Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I, like many others use Railroad and Co. software. The software allows me to define the logic (interlocking if you prefer that term) of each signal. As I use automatic running (the computer controls trains) the software needs to know where trains are, this is achieved by train detection blocks. The screen shot below shows part of the layout as it appears in RR&co. The highlighted box in cyan is the junction shown in the pictures below The signals I have used are Berko. Thr detection block units are LDT The signals are controlled by LDT decoders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I'm using Digitrax, running a mixture of DS 64's, DS 54's, DS 52's, DS 44's , Tam Valley 3 way Servo Drivers and a Tower Controller TC-64 (yes, 64 channels...) to run Long Marton. The signals are Ratio kits, most modified to use a servo direct driving them, and the Tam Valley units operating them. Some of the signals are operated by Torti operating the pull string arrangement of the Ratio kit. I am still missing a fair # of ground signals, which I need to come up with a convincing way of making and making function. The signals are operated via RR&Co, but it doesn't strictly provide the logic for the signals. Most of the logic is provided by a Modutrac locking lever frame with 24 levers (1 spare). However, there is a huge amount that RR&Co does in the background, as the layout is designed to be operated as a signaling puzzle rather than as an engineer. RR&Co provides trains based on a push button demand in both directions, fed by 21 storage spaces (16 rear/ 5 front), and then the signalman must acknowledge the train, clear the signals and pass it to the next box. (it all sort of worked the last time I tried it...in one direction...) The Tower Controller provides a visual reproduction of the bell code ordered for both Appleby and New Biggin, so it is not at all vital, but it helps if you are not paying too much attention. So, there are a lot of pages in the RR&Co software, most of them are copied in my Long Marton thread. Beast is a expert in using RR&Co to best advantage, along with TTG. James http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dual3way.html http://www.tonystrains.com/products/rrcirkits.htm# Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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