7mm Gladiator Royal Scot build

[Tim2014]

Hi if your still after books on the scots. I got the power of the scot. And lms locomotive profiles no 1 scots. For just over £20 for both.

 

Give Maynard and Bradley a ring. Of Leicester 0116-2532712. I manage to get most of my books from them. If they don't have it in they can find it for you.

Thanks Farren - I'll give them a go.  I've got the Power of the Scots and I tried at the time to source Profile No1 with no success.  Reviews of it were mixed though.  Do you know if it has a drawing or photo of the fire iron tunnel top in relation to the tender side?  It gets expensive buying books on the off-chance they've got a drawing or photo you need (he says with slightly dented wallet!).

[dikitriki]

I wandered over there last night and considered signing up to look at the photos! Congratulations on what looks like a beautiful model. As a piece of engineering/art I think they do look good in the raw, but there's nothing like watching them hurtle towards you and past at eye level with a rake of coaches in tow (if only we could replicate the smoke - I'm outdoors so it might not destroy my marriage!). What's still to do on it, just painting?

 

Can I ask how you went with the fire-iron tunnel - any pointers?

 

I thought I had divine blessing for my build as it looked like our 'local' second hand book shop had a copy of the Wild Swan Locomotive Profiles No5 in stock which is pretty unlikely given my location, but slightly sadly - it was the pictorial supplements and although I procured both and both do have some great pics of the more visible areas (including a Scot tender front), there are none of the bunker area.  Looks like I'm on for a quest for profile No1 and No 5 on international order and the build might have to go on ice.

 

Hi Tim

 

I'll have a look through my books - I have all the publications going on the Scots.

 

I'll also answer more fully, probably tomorrow, as today is a working day on the layout and I'm expecting people to arrive shortly.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[scot6p]

Hi Tim, I have had a look though my books including LMS and I can't see any with inside detail, looks like I might have to take a trip to the Watercress line to have a look at their Black 5, I know that it's a saved loco but it should be the same inside (it wont be for a while yet), I'll let you know how I get on.

 

Len

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim

 

I'll have a look through my books - I have all the publications going on the Scots.

 

I'll also answer more fully, probably tomorrow, as today is a working day on the layout and I'm expecting people to arrive shortly.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Thanks Richard - I would very much be in your debt - but at your leisure of course, a lack of planning on my part does not constitute an emergency on yours.  I hope you have a productive day.

Cheers,

Tim

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim, I have had a look though my books including LMS and I can't see any with inside detail, looks like I might have to take a trip to the Watercress line to have a look at their Black 5, I know that it's a saved loco but it should be the same inside (it wont be for a while yet), I'll let you know how I get on.

 

Len

Thanks very much for looking Len!  Does your ibrary include the loco profiles series?  If so, I'll strike them off the 'must have' list.

 

If you do head over there, it does look like there is a research gap on this, at least as far as the Internet is concerned - I spent a good chunk of last night looking at dive videos of the 8F tenders on board the wreck of SS Thistlegorm, it seems like no one thinks to take a photo looking straight down, or sitting in the coal bunker though. Very inconsiderate

 

SOME fireman with suitable access must have taken a couple of pics? Mind you, I can see the answer causing problems, there seem to be a lot of variations in the model pics I've seen and it's not likely they're all right!

[scot6p]

Hi Tim, I have all the Black 5 profiles the Royal Scot profiles and a lot of the Jubilee books as well. None of them show the inside of the Tenders and all of the engine's had coal in them, I know David Clarke and John Jennison and David Clarke hasn't got any and just waiting to here from John Jennison, but I think I might have to go to the Watercress Line to find out (I have to go my-self any-way). :-)

 

Len

[dikitriki]

Hi Tim

 

I have trawled through my LMS library and found 4 drawings that all indicate the line of the top of the fire iron tunnel is straight the whole length. The caveat is that none of the diagrams relate to Royal Scot tenders. One relates to Princess Royal tenders converted for Black 5 use, 2 are drawings generated by modellers, and one is somewhat indistinct. Nearly all the photos show coal over the tunnel so they are no good. I also found a model photo showing the same straight line.

 

So while I found enough secondary evidence to say 'straight line', I cannot be truly certain.

 

Yours

 

Richard

[Tim2014]

THanks SO much Richard! I think I shall opt for straight along the top on the basis of that, and if someone subsequently proves me wrong will add additional coal.

[Tim2014]

Edit from much later:

It's not a Royal Scot tender so can't be considered definitive, but there is a Stanier 4000 gallon drawing C33426 on page 106 of Wild Swan Loco Profile No 11 (Coronations).  That would indicate what I've done here isn't quite right, the top of the tunnel should be parallel to the top edge of the tender, but meets the side *above* the tender side radius (not in the middle of the radius as I aimed for).  That would also imply that you don't need the second bend I put on the front section of the tunnel, although I have a feeling it could still be problematic to get all 6 pieces to mate up correctly, you'd need CAD or a *lot* of trial and error to design this shape in flat etched brass - and I think this kit was designed in the 90s when MS-DOS was the go so the designer has actually done an awesome job!

 

Here’s the adjusted fire iron tunnel.  I had to detach and resolder the left hand bunker side too after realizing it had a slope on it.

The forward section needed an extra bend to keep the top flat. No idea if that is correct!  There should be some air vents too, but they aren't included in the kit.  If I can find a photo, I'll try and knock up a pasable representation.

The sides went on pretty easily once the top bends were done.

This photo doesn't really show another problem I had.  I should have thought about the join between the tender side and back plates before now.  They probably should be chamfered together, but I only realised that once the back plate was in place with no way to file in a chamfer.  I also had to 'slide' the tender side forward by a few tenths of a mm by filing slots in the tabs so that there was a passing resemblence to a right angle rather than a T!  The corners aren't as crisp as I'd like, but they'll have to do.

 

The bends at the top were tricky as there's so little material to grab hold of.  I should have paid more attention to the alignment of everything in the vertical plane at the tender front.  Anything not flush with the side needs filling!

I'm pretty happy with the result although I think I should have sealed the gaps with low melt solder rather than trying to do it with 145C.  I started tidying up but then got scared there’d be too much heat soak into the other areas I’ve got low melt solder on and had visions of everything falling apart.  I reckon I’ll get the dremel out and grind off the worst of the ugliness, then see where I’m up to.  A nice hot iron gets a good flow out, but then won’t seal any gaps. 

I'm trying not to resort to filler, but what sort of filler do people use?   I’ll be running outdoors so there’ll be a fair bit of thermal expansion to deal with.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Tim2014

[david.hill64]

I usually use 'Plastic Padding' though the tube I have now is about 15 years old and doesn't set as well as it used to! The car body fillers are cheap and do the job well, being easily sanded down to a smooth surface. I haven't found a DIY car repair shop in Bangkok so recently I have been using Tamiya epoxy putty and this has worked well.

[Tim2014]

Good old plastic padding! I’d NEVER have thought of that, but what a great idea. Got plenty of car filler around.  Thanks muchly.  BTW here in Perth you can get similar products in the hardware trade shops, so that might be an option for you? I seem to recall there are two different types though (polyester and epoxy?) and paint / solvent compatibility over the filler may be an issue for the unwary...

 

Here’s a shot of the rear top of the tender – which is pretty much complete now, just got to clean the left hand lifting hook up. I couldn’t resist placing the whitemetal parts for effect.

I’m going to solder the white metal on because as scary as it seems to a newbie, I’ve never been able to epoxy anything without getting epoxy everywhere.  Great, strong glue but not something I like working with in a scale model context.  I also haven’t worried about tidying up the seams and edges yet.

 

I'd planned to add the overflow dome and filler bases by soldering them on with a small blow torch.  In hindsght that was risky as it put a lot of heat into the area and initially bowed the filler plate and bounced it out of alignment.  I chickened out before the solder really flowed and used the 40W iron set to 360C with 145 solder to go around the edges.  I had to get the blow torch out again to get enough heat into the area to relocate the filler base over the hole in the tender top plate.  I like the idea of using the blow torch, but I won't use it again unless there's no way anything can move out of place while the heat is being applied. I find I've got much more control over where the heat goes with the iron.  Maybe it's too big a torch (thick wax crayon size).

 

I’ll note in passing that I’ve deviated from the instructions and not added the tender handrails yet – because they seem too vulnerable to be putting on with so much construction still to do - the kit instructions suggest using short handrail knobs at the front, filing down their bases so they are not visible.  But based on the prototypical photos I’ve seen in the quest for the fire-iron tunnel layout there was an industrial nut on the inside of the tender side that bolted the handrail post in place and the mounting shaft and blob of solder will do a passable job of representing that.  So I suggest the filing may not be necessary.

[Sandy Harper]

I’m going to solder the white metal on,

 

Tim

Might I suggest you consider using Carrs 100 Degree solder for attaching white metal castings to brass. The advantages are, that it does not need tinning of the brass, as you do with 70 degree w/m solder. The iron can be used at around 200/250 degrees, so less damage if you accidentally touch the w/m casting, and the solder flows beautifully giving a nice clean joint.

 

Dont know if you can get it in your part of the world but I am sure Carrs or Eillens would post it to you.

 

Good luck

Sandy

[Tim2014]

 

 

I’m going to solder the white metal on,

 

Tim

Might I suggest you consider using Carrs 100 Degree solder for attaching white metal castings to brass. The advantages are, that it does not need tinning of the brass, as you do with 70 degree w/m solder. The iron can be used at around 200/250 degrees, so less damage if you accidentally touch the w/m casting, and the solder flows beautifully giving a nice clean joint.

 

Dont know if you can get it in your part of the world but I am sure Carrs or Eillens would post it to you.

 

Good luck

Sandy

Thanks Sandy, I'd read about tinning the brass and hadn't realised that was only needed for 70 deg solder.  I have some DCC Concepts 100 degree solder - presumably that should work the same way as the Carrs.  I'll read up on it, but I imagine scrupulously clean on both sides, parts clamped in position, liquid flux and relying on the solder to wick under the whitemetal is the way to go - touching the brass not the casting.  I'll find a scrap bit of casting to have a 'play' with before I tackle anything important.

[Tim2014]

Rules Instructions are for the blind obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men… (I hope!).

 

I have departed from them again.  In making up the tender side frames you are supposed to rivet the frames and the steps, then fold the steps and support brackets a little like this photo:

(the instructions actually call for folding the step along what will be the lower fold first, but that made no sense to me so I did as you see here.  The problem I spotted was that the etch thickness when the steps are folded into their final position will make the frame stand proud of the tender baseplate by an etch thickness.  The baseplate has an etched groove, but the step folds means the front and rear of the frame can't seat into it.   I couldn’t see any way around doing the obvious: cutting the steps along their half-etch fold lines, filing this ‘gap’ off, and then soldering them in position against the baseplate.  I suspect the top section wouldn't be on the prototype and is just there to aid aligning everything so I may cut that off and discard it.

 

This photo shows me starting this on the front step.  Hopefully I’m not the only one who occasionally finds the knife blade has completely missed the mark.

No harm done, it’s quite a light score really!

 

Based on a dry fit, I think the side plates will now seat home fairly well – at least the support brackets should be pretty much flush with the basepate.  There is still a small warp in the baseplate, a bow upwards and away from the footplate edge and in towards the bunker, but it’s only a few tenths of a mm and shouldn’t be visible when the tender is on the rails.  The baseplate is completely square around the footplate and all my scrutiny had been from the top down so it had escaped notice until now and perhaps without the bow, everything would have gone together adequately as per the instructions.

[Tim2014]

I thought I'd post a quick update just in case anyone thinks I've given up!  The side frames are attached:

Looks OK I think.

But the real reason for a lack of apparent progress was my Meteor models hornblocks arrived so I began to contemplate springy beams.

 

Yikes!

 

I normally think I've got a pretty good head for 3D conceptualisation, but I rapidly realised the only way to begin to figure out pivot locations and heights was to spot solder the chassis together so I could really see where all the bits are. Hats off to anyone that does this in 4mm, truly astonishing...

 

Much pondering later (and regularly finding the idea of simple springing quite attractive!), I've decided on an asymetric solution which can use the chassis crossmembers for 2 of the 4 fixed fulcrum points on each side and only requires a small amount of material to be removed from one other crossmember to ensure it doesn't foul the springs.  I'm going to make my own hornblock carriers from bits of scrap brass and the 2 chassis fulcrums on each side from a bit of angle.  I think I've pretty much got the concepts now (but only thanks to CLAG - great resource).  I can see why it could be off-putting, but I think as long as the weight is right and the fulcrums are soldered to within 0.5mm of the right position, all should be good.  I can post my calcs off the CLAG spreadsheet in anyone is curious, but it'll take longer to electronically diagram than to do it and photo, so I'll leave it here for now.  And it would be worth seeing if it actually works before setting out the working

Edited January 28, 2015 by Tim2014

[Tim2014]

I’m probably talking to myself now – it’s been a LONG time between posts, but that’s because I’ve been busy. Busy fixing my newbie mistakes!

For the benefit of any other newbies (and amusement of every one else).  I will now tell my sad tale of woe.  Fortunately for me, it’s not as bad as Jeff’s (yet), though he’s got 8 wheels to worry about and I only had 6.

So here we are: tender on chassis and it runs beautifully (the leading axle is aligned the camera lies!).

 

Confession time: it isn’t actually properly sprung. But it will be soon, read on…

 

A few close ups of the hidden bits (you may notice only one side has spring wire and carriers to the bearings).

[Tim2014]

This wasn’t really that bad.  Never having done anything like this before, I really should have done a bit more planning and a bit less soldering, but hopefully I’ve learnt my lessons.  Just do not for one moment take this as a how to guide! There are really good guides on how to do all this on the web, many of them at this site.  They have the significant advantage of having been written by people who actually know what they are doing and might even have done it for a living. Trust them: figuring it out on your own is very satisfying, but only if you are a stubborn git with the persistence to see it through and fix your mistakes on the way.

 

As I alluded to a couple of posts ago, trying to figure where everything has to fit in 3D was impossible for me so I spot soldered the chassis together to think things over in my hand.  Thanks to Jeff’s bitter experience with Alcazar I knew to leave the chassis etch un-cut at this stage.  Those bearing holes are so helpful for working out where the wheels have to be in the vertical to get the ride height correct and giving reference points to get the wheel spacing right.

 

[Tim2014]

After carefully examining the Meteor hornblocks I decided I didn’t like them for this application.  They would have needed quite a bit of surgery to fit this chassis, the bearings didn’t seem to fit the Slaters axles very well (tight and I don't have a reamer) and so I decided to go with Slaters ones which seemed a bit easier to fettle to my designs.

I ruled out fitting the springy beam below the axles because it would be visible, and ruled out fitting it outside the frames because I didn’t think I’d have the clearance between the frame and the wheels.  I could have tried to decrease the frame spacing but figured that was high risk, so settled on a fairly conventional approach – heavily inspired by the 7mm Jinty implementation featured on the CLAG website.

I could now start to see where everything would sit and where I would need clearance holes and where I needed fulcrum holes.  I’m using two of the chassis cross-members as fulcrum points and the other cross-members have small piecess ‘in the way’ so needs clearance holes.  Finally, the front one needed a small slot removed to clear the horn-guide on each side of the chassis. Once I know how well it works, I'll post the fulcrum points.

Having planned everything, sketched it out and measured everything many times over with my vernier calipers, I desoldered and marked everything out.  Not well enough as it turns out, it helps to remember which side of the chassis will be outside when scoring wheel center lines.  I’d even scribed 'inside' onto each side, but still managed to miss a horizontal centerline on one of them! Fortunately I had it on the other side and could transfer it across with calipers. I probably could have grabbed it off the other one too, but hey, it would have been much better to have done it right originally!

Edited January 28, 2015 by Tim2014

[Tim2014]

Having got everything marked out (I thought) I got out the hack saw and hacked out the horn block slots, which have a nice slot pre-etched at the top so at least one line was pretty much true for each slot.  In hindsight I would cut more accurately…

 

I planned to solder the hornblocks onto each chassis side before assembling the chassis.  The idea was that would allow me to check the springing was sorta going to work.  So I did, and stuffed up the vertical alignment on the hornblock pairs (they were on a diagonal).  This is where accurate slots would help, especially with slaters hornblocks which have neat ridges to help align everything.

[Tim2014]

It was clear now that I would have to assemble the chassis and solder the hornblocks in with alignment dowels afterwards.   I soldered the fore and aft spring mounting tabs onto each chassis side (using electrical solder for everything I could to allow low melt solder for the chassis assembly).  I also figured I could get the hornblocks soldered onto one side with sufficient accuracy to mean only the matching ones needed doing once the chassis was together.  Of course this all took place having to clean the solder off from the first bodged attempt.  But from that point on things went together really very quickly.

 

I found the Meteor models alignment dowels brilliant, working on a piece of glass laid over a sheet of graph paper and using the shadow from an overhead light to check everything was square.  An 80W iron made light work of soldering the hornblocks to the chassis (heat to the hornblock until the solder wicks around the whole way, with croc clips holding everything steady.  Then check it hasn’t moved).

 

Now if I understand springy beams correctly, the position of the hornblock in the vertical isn’t that critical, the exact ride height of each axle can be adjusted with the length of the carrier wires from the springy beam to the bearing.  In fact, it’s almost certainly going to need adjusting because the exact amount of deflection you get at each wheel is going to depend on the ‘springiness’ of the springy beam you use and the exact weight distribution of your model over each axle, which is only an estimate until it’s finished (although adding weight probably isn’t that hard, moving a center of gravity might be).  But you do need to make sure the bearing travels ONLY up and down.  That’s probably less important on a tender, but on a couple loco will be critical.  Of course axle spacing is also critical in a couple loco, but the coupling rods on the axle alignment dowels should make that reasonably straightforward I hope.

[Tim2014]

One downside of the slaters hornblocks was that I couldn’t just use scrap brass for the spring supports on the bearings (I could have cut the horizontal cross piece off I suppose) so I opted to drill a hole which would also keep a vertical wire in place.  Trouble was that if I soldered that to the bearing as I had planned, the spring fulcrum would prevent removal of the bearing from the horn guide. My solution was to drill a locating hole in the top surface of the bearing for the wire to seat in.  Having done that, I don’t think it’s going to work very well (I don’t fancy dropping the wires back in after a derailment), so I will solder a guide tube to the top of the bearing and that will be high enough to keep the carrier wire engaged at the bottom-most travel of the bearing.

 

I hope the only other ‘mistake’ was I forgot a needed some clearance holes in a chassis cross member to ‘drop’ in the bearing to springy beam wires.

I’ve fitted a ‘too thin’ piece of brass wire as the springy beam at present (I still have to procure some 0.6mm brass wire) and it clearly shows things are doing what they ought to but I’m still reliant on the holes in the bearing to support the vertical wires from the bearing to the springy beam and it’s clear that’s not going to work in practice, I need to solder some tube to keep everything aligned.  As that point I’ll also remove the ‘pins’ on the hornblocks to see what the ride height is like.

Hopefully you get the idea:

 

I have to say I don’t really enjoy building chassis.  It’s a lot of work where the things can only really go wrong and it’s all hidden away.  I much prefer assembling things that can be seen, but it is quite satisfying blowing the tender along a piece of glass!  Hopefully the pace will pick up now.

[Tim2014]

Ta-dah! (OK, it’s still not finished and it does look odd without the spring castings, but they are off for a good reason).  Anything that looks wrong, please shout.  Known issues are:

1. the wheel guards.  I’m contemplating cutting them off the chassis and mounting them against the bufferbeam instead.
2.  I don’t know whether 46159 had the tender lamp cover in place.  It’ll be easier to remove than it was to put on!
3.  I think the tender front sides might not be curved in tightly enough (as in too gentle an arc starting too far away from the end of the tender front).

Other than that, I’m pretty happy with how it’s all gone together – what do YOU think?

 

 

Ok, so no cheating now in this side view: it sits nicely at the correct height on both sides with the correct spring wire (0.5 mm steel as it was easier to get than 0.6mm brass and they have equivalent 'spring').

 

All up weight is 475g (riding mass was supposed to be 420 but I’m not taking it all apart to check at the moment!)

It has a lovely ‘springy’ ride with at least +/-1 mm vertical movement on all axles.  Testing on my track shows it handles track irregularities much better than my coupled 4Fchassis which has the front pair of axles beam compensated.

I’ve got to finish the brake gear, it’s not really very scale (but who’s going to see it anyway!), and I can’t decide whether to solder it all up and hope I never need to get the bearings out. Doing so will require removing it.  This then means I have to start thinking about painting. Wow, that wasn’t on my radar at all and I may get the loco chassis done before going any further on the tender.  I will solder the spring castings on before starting on that, they were left until now as their locating holes are perfect ‘sights’ for checking the ride height, and it'll finally look finished too.

 

Finally I thought I'd post this one as it's a view I don't see posted that often and shows my take on the fireiron tunnel.

[JeffP]

I think you are being overly critical of yourself.

 

It looks very nice to me.

[Tim2014]

Thanks for your kind words everyone.  Don't get me wrong: I am very pleased with how it looks so far, the sense of satisfaction from doing this myself is immense!

 

Here's a couple of pics with springs and axle block castings on:

All went well except I got brain fade and touched a 270 C iron (which had sweated the main casting onto the frame) to the much, much thinner part of the casting at the base of the axle box (I've no idea what it's called!) to get a nice smooth blend between casting and frame.  Anyway, there's a smooth joint there now, but the casting isn't as long as it should be! Fortunately it's not too noticeable. If it really bothers me I'll grind the whole lower part of the casting off and replace it with a bit of scrap etch filed and riveted to replicate the casting.  I've now also soldered the brake gear:soldered on but these pics predate that.

 

Now I'm pondering motor and gearbox locations with CSB.  I've a nice maxon A-max and gearbox which at this stage I'm thinking will go like an 'L' on the center axle (with the loco front to the right if you imaginea side view).  That puts the motor vertically into the smokebox and the gearbox between the two chassis sides.  Having done the tender and learnt how CSB all goes together, I reckon I can knock up some 2D drawings to figure positioning out rather than do a quick rough solder together and I will be spending some time estimating CoG and loaded weights.  I may be some time!

[JeffP]

Looks quite imposing.

 

Another of the many classes I never saw in service, but an attractive loco class.