7mm Gladiator Royal Scot build

[dikitriki]

Hi Tim

 

If I'm relocating an etched part, I would use a microflame and nudge it to the correct position. If you do not dwell on the part, there is little chance of anything else falling off, and certainly none of delaminating such a large piece as the springs.

 

I have found time (sorry for the delay) to get my Scot in front of the camera. I would remind you that it in still incomplete and not tidied up. I am putting the pictures here. If you feel it clutters your thread, let me know and I shall put them on my thread instead.

 

First one is the current state of play - cab interior, chassis completion, water scoop details required.

 

 

Top, live steam injector; bottom exhaust steam injector. With all the pipe work, it's a bit tricky to get the chassis mounting bolts in

 

 

Reversed so you can see the pipework.

 

 

The leading drivers with the grease separator attached to the spacer as discussed.

 

 

Carving to the bulkheads to get the motor to fit. ABC motor gearboxes weren't around in those days. Nevertheless, the Crailcrest is still a darned good motor if it can be fitted.

 

 

The 4 amp chip is slid in at an angle under the motor. You can also see the pick ups

 

 

Fitting the cylinders and valve gear support brackets to the chassis. It all unscrews.

 

 

Rear of chassis. I think I retained all that big spacer.

 

 

Valve gear

 

 

Chassis front

 

 

I hope this is of assistance, but if you have any further questions or want further pictures, let me know.

 

Yours

 

Richard

 

 

 

[ozzyo]

Hello Richard,

 

I have used one of your photos in Grasshopper's thread to show a point I hope you don't mind, if you do I'll remove it.

 

OzzyO.

 

PS. a nice looking Scott.

Edited April 20, 2015 by ozzyo

[dikitriki]

Hello Richard,

 

I have used one of your photos in Grasshopper's thread to show a point I hope you don't mind, if you do I'll remove it.

 

OzzyO.

 

PS. a nice looking Scott.

 

No problem OzzyO, thanks for letting me know.

 

Richard

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim

 

If I'm relocating an etched part, I would use a microflame and nudge it to the correct position. If you do not dwell on the part, there is little chance of anything else falling off, and certainly none ..

I hope this is of assistance, but if you have any further questions or want further pictures, let me know.

 

Yours

 

Richard

'Of assistance'?! Oh yes, very much so, thank you so much for taking it to bits and taking them, I will be referring back to them regularly, especially the valve gear and motion in the not-too-distant future.  That is one enormous motor, I thought I had problems fitting mine and I now don't think I'm going to have to resort to any surgery at all.  And please don't think you're cluttering up 'my' thread, I think anyone building one of these will find them both inspiring, and helpful.  The kit instructions aren't bad, but they can't convey what a photo does.  Based on those I'm certain my intended motor location will be OK.  Can you put up with a few more questions?

If so:

Is that lead in the firebox for ballast, helping with the exterior edge rounding, or something else?

Lastly (maybe not!) did I miss a build thread from you on here or WT? If so, my humble apologies.

 

Thanks for the flame soldering tips, I'm going to scratchbuild a 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 for an old Triang Big-Big shunter body I have and use up my meteor hornblocks and I'll give the torch a go for that. Trouble is it's a cheap one and I find it surges.  I've also not yet got the knack of knowing where the 'heat' is in relation to the flame.  Probably just need more practice, but for now I'm more comfortable with the iron and only use the flame for destroying - which hasn't been for a while now thank goodness.  I will try as I did quite a bit of glass-blowing in a former life and enjoyed that, but I miss the 'flare' from the borosillicate glass which told you exactly where the heat was.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Tim2014

[Tim2014]

Some pics of the chassis - no motor or CSB fitted and the top space is just resting in position, but you should be able to see how I modified the hornblocks and where the CSB is located.  Now I know it works (so far) I don't mind showing it. Still needs lots of cleaning up and next step will be to check with motor and CSB fitted. Realised I can't post a vid file, but it rolls down a genle incline (about 1/8" in 1 foot is enough to get it rolling and once going, much less will keep it going). Is that good enough?

And any advice on fluting coupling rods (short of buying milled ones?). I'm planning on filling them up with low melt solder and scraping and grinding back to get the blended curve from the main face of the rod onto the bosses, but it seems like a lot of work for what might be a pretty patchy result.

 

[dikitriki]

Is that lead in the firebox for ballast, helping with the exterior edge rounding, or something else?

Lastly (maybe not!) did I miss a build thread from you on here or WT? If so, my humble apologies.

 

 

Hi Tim,

 

I'm glad you found the pictures helpful.

 

The lead is just for ballasting - the firebox is plenty strong enough without. The Crailcrest motor is best in a reasonably weighty loco so the boiler and firebox were lined with lead sheet. The only downside - apart from size - is that it requires a pretty hefty chip.

 

I do have a substantial build thread on WT http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/dikitrikis-dark-side-l-y-crab-temporarily.100/

 

There is nothing on the Scot though as the build pre-dated my internet presence, but you might find it interesting none-the-less.

 

As far as microflames go, I use the Nimrod Solderpro 120 extensively. It's a brilliant piece of kit and very controllable. One of my key tools that I would replace like with like should it fail.

 

Yours,

 

Richard

[Adrian]

 

 

And any advice on fluting coupling rods (short of buying milled ones?). I'm planning on filling them up with low melt solder and scraping and grinding back to get the blended curve from the main face of the rod onto the bosses, but it seems like a lot of work for what might be a pretty patchy result.

 

It's looking good.

 

Unfortunately many of the milled ones on sale are done with an end mill so there is no fluting at the ends. Also unfortunately the best way for fluted rods is to machine them on a horizontal mill, or a lathe with a vertical slide. I've machined fluted rods by putting a small woodruff cutter in a lathe chuck, clamped the rods to the vertical slide and machined in the flutes. The other good thing with this method is that you can use steel so the rods are the correct colour as well! 

[Tim2014]

So here are a couple of pics with CSB and motor installed.  The chassis has run, RC powered for simplicity, and ran very nicely indeed (until the coupling rod nuts unscrewed and the coupling rod fell off.  I found 2 out of 3 in the ballast, since I plan on replacing them with 10BA, it's not a major loss).  The motor wasn't 'anchored', I'll rig a torque control post at some point, and there is so much rotating mass in the gearbox that the loco runs on for quite a way once the power is cut. Real inertia.  And the CSB gives an oh-so silky ride thus far (on a much softer spring than it will ultimately have I point out because it weighs a fraction of what it will.

This is what most of the planning to date has been to achieve:

 

I did have an 'Oh cr*p!' moment with the rear part of the large spacer.  The final drive gear fouls the top - and by a considerable margin - so a lot of hacking and filing was required to give the required clearance.  It would have been *much* easier to do that before I soldered it in...there's a fair bit more come off since this piic was taken as it was still fouling at the top of the hornblock travel.  I'm sure it won't be actually needed, but I think it's worth entirely eliminating the possibility of having the final gear turn into an angle grinder, or alternatively, the spacer becoming an emergency brake...

 

It's tight between the frames on the middle axle, but it all fits in:

The motor/gearbox will be rotated slightly forward (away) from this view so it doesn't foul the CSB fulcrum points on the frames:

 

And finally here's some close-ups of the hornblocks at min, max and neutral deflection.  I don't think max will be needed, even with my track.  And even with the more flexible spring there is no way enough flex to drop the spring off the axle bearing, so that's it. KISS works for me.

[Tim2014]

It's looking good.

 

Unfortunately many of the milled ones on sale are done with an end mill so there is no fluting at the ends. Also unfortunately the best way for fluted rods is to machine them on a horizontal mill, or a lathe with a vertical slide. I've machined fluted rods by putting a small woodruff cutter in a lathe chuck, clamped the rods to the vertical slide and machined in the flutes. The other good thing with this method is that you can use steel so the rods are the correct colour as well! 

Thanks Adrian. I've no milling machinery (nor even a drill press!), so I would have had to consider buying them, from what you've said, it sounds like I'd get nice solid tops, but probably compromise on the fluting.  I've made some promising progress (I think) with low melt solder 'blobs' and some filing and scraping.  WHen it's near presentable I'll post a pic.  It was an experiment and it will 'undo' as I haven't put the bosses on the inside faces that OzzyO recommended yet.  Sounds like it's worth saving my money for something else.

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim,

 

I'm glad you found the pictures helpful.

 

The lead is just for ballasting - the firebox is plenty strong enough without. The Crailcrest motor is best in a reasonably weighty loco so the boiler and firebox were lined with lead sheet. The only downside - apart from size - is that it requires a pretty hefty chip.

 

I do have a substantial build thread on WT http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/dikitrikis-dark-side-l-y-crab-temporarily.100/

 

There is nothing on the Scot though as the build pre-dated my internet presence, but you might find it interesting none-the-less.

 

As far as microflames go, I use the Nimrod Solderpro 120 extensively. It's a brilliant piece of kit and very controllable. One of my key tools that I would replace like with like should it fail.

 

Yours,

 

Richard

Thanks Richard, I'll have a look.  If it's half as good as your A3 thread on here, it will be very helpful indeed.  I can get an 'Iroda' Solderpro 120 over here.  It looks very similar (identical) and having had a look at some of Christian's lovely clean work I think I'll take the plunge in due course.  Especially as I can't get a manly 6 mm bit for my iron (but it is 60W so I shouldn't really belittle it).

One last (possibly not?!) question having done a complete audit of my castings. I can see what I think is an injector which mounts (presumably) onto a bracket, 'T' in the kit, on the frames:

But the instructions talk of mounting this casting (or another one I'm missing) to the back of the rear step.  I haven't been able to find any prototypical pics, not surprising since I conceed it's not a particularly easy place for a photographer to get into! Not knowing an injector from an extractor and many of the myriad of other castings doesn't help either.  I rather fear I've lost a couple since I can't find glass guages for the cab backhead either.

 

Can anyone recommend a supplier?  I thought about the JLTRT super detail kit, but it's quite an expensive way to replace 3 or 4 castings.

[Tim2014]

I've nearly finished the brake gear.  That made up really nicely I thought, the etches are really thin and easy to bend though.  Bent one, but I think got away with it. 

I haven't been able to look at any prototype pics, so please speak up if you can see anything that looks wrong.  I wasn't sure how much the brake rod extended out of the cylinder with the brakes off, but in the end, I don't have a choice, it's all predetermined by the positions of the other components and how far off the wheels you want the brake blocks.  Given the movement the CSB allows, I'm playing it safe, but even so the front wheel look veeeery close to the brake bracket.

 

I practiced minimum solder on the brake spacers and the etches pivot in the castings as I'm getting wary of the rapidly approaching valve gear assembly.  In fact the brakes would move nicely if the brake rod could be actuated.  I've riveted it all together with brass pins but must take a finished pic.

 

So it's cylinders and valve gear up next. Foreign territory, but I've bookmarked a great thread where Dikitriki runs Christian through the process so I will follow that. Did I mention I tried to get Etched Loco Construction and the US post managed to destroy the book during the dispatch process, so I have to try again.  It simply cannot be as good as this forum though, although perhaps a little more condensed and focussed.

 

How can I ever thank those of you who so generously share their time, wisdom and experience with us who are just starting out?  It's very humbling, but also inspiring too, the standard of craftsmanship is really, truly outstanding, I doubt I'll ever come close, but I certainly want to strive to be ever better.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Tim2014

[Tim2014]

To put off the valve gear a bit longer I might take on the front bogie next!  I had been thinking I wouldn't spring it, but now I'm rethinking that. Any opinions on pros and cons?

 

It looks like 'as built' it's sprung between the bogie and loco frame above it and I see Gladiator used to make a side-play spring which I could probably 'bodge'.  Compensating the bogie seems pretty common and the CLAG site does talk about springing and pivoting.  Previously I had read it and interpreted it as being unnecessary to spring the bogie for an 4-6-0, but as I reread it, I think it actually means the bogie is largely irrelevent to the main loco CSB for many loco configurations (including 4-6-0) so I'm open now to what folk here find works for them.  Just remember, my track isn't the best.  Although my 16t mineral wagons don't derail (lima with fixed peco bearings) and they have a longer wheel base.

[scot6p]

Hi Tim, a good build your doing there, I bought JLTRT detail parts they do an excellent cast brake hanger, shoes and a grease seperater. I will post a picture of them when I get home so you can see what you get.

 

Len

[JeffP]

Also look at Ragstone, he does lots of stuff for the Royal Scot.

 

It was mastered by David Parkins, so is superb.

[dikitriki]

I can get an 'Iroda' Solderpro 120 over here.  It looks very similar (identical)

One last (possibly not?!) question having done a complete audit of my castings. I can see what I think is an injector which mounts (presumably) onto a bracket, 'T' in the kit, on the frames:

But the instructions talk of mounting this casting (or another one I'm missing) to the back of the rear step.  I haven't been able to find any prototypical pics, not surprising since I conceed it's not a particularly easy place for a photographer to get into! Not knowing an injector from an extractor and many of the myriad of other castings doesn't help either.  I rather fear I've lost a couple since I can't find glass guages for the cab backhead either.

 

Can anyone recommend a supplier?  I thought about the JLTRT super detail kit, but it's quite an expensive way to replace 3 or 4 castings.

Hi Tim,

 

The Iroda is the same as the Nimrod, I presume rebranded for the US market.

 

Funnily enough, on my WT thread, I have just been going through injectors for a Crab I'm working on.

 

You have 2 to consider. The smaller is the live steam injector. This is mounted vertically to the back of the rear step on the driver's side (left hand side looking forward). The larger, exhaust steam injector is mounted on the bracket attached to the chassis (I either made my own bracket or adapted the kit's - yours as attached will have the injector too far inboard) longitudinally on the fireman's side - the right hand side looking forward. Note that there are variants of each, so the castings you can buy may need chopping about to get the pipework on the correct side. Laurie Griffin, Ragstone and Hobbyhorse Developments all have first class castings. As an example, this is the Crab's exhaust steam injector, which by the time I had finished with it comprised 13 separate components.

 

 

You don't have a need to buy the JLTRT super-detail kit. Any additional components you may wish to use can be cherry picked from other sources.

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Regards,

 

Richard

Edited May 5, 2015 by dikitriki

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim,

 

The Iroda is the same as the Nimrod, I presume rebranded for the US market.

 

Funnily enough, on my WT thread, I have just been going through injectors for a Crab I'm working on.

 

You have 2 to consider. The smaller is the live steam injector. This is mounted vertically to the back of the rear step on the driver's side (left hand side looking forward). The larger, exhaust steam injector is mounted ..

Regards,

 

Richard

THanks Richard, as always, I'm in awe of your work! I'll toddle over to WT to check out the crab and research Ragstone and your other recommendations. 95 quids will go a long way towards another kit, which I'd rather do than superdetail this one - I just don't think my skills are up to really close scrutiny yet. One day maybe.

[JeffP]

The Ragstone stuff is excellent and very quick delivery.

 

You have to e-mail him for a list.

[Tim2014]

The Ragstone stuff is excellent and very quick delivery.

 

You have to e-mail him for a list.

Thanks JeffP - I'm spoilt for choice now! All bookmarked for future reference. Not sure yet who I'll go with, it ought to be the cheapest, but I've been looking at too much of Richards work and the lure of perfection is strong. Must resist...!

[Tim2014]

This will be completely in the wrong place if it it to be useful to anyone else (can the moderators move the post order?), but over in Grasshopper John's Black 5 build someone mentioned in passing the difficulty of matching a parts list of descriptions to the actual parts, especially for those of us who grew up without being able to get close to steam engines on a regular basis.  I thought it would be worth trying to run a photo catalogue of the castings against the numbers.  There are diagrams with most of the parts labelled, but not all, and being hand-drawn, the resemblance is somewhat vague.  Leafing through all the instructions pages scanning for a particular number is timeconsuming.

 

Of course I should have done this on opening the kit-box to find out that all the parts are present, but I didn't.  I am definitely missing some parts (probably my fault from rifling through everything in the living room!) so I can't take photos of them.  And some parts are now missing from this because they've been incorporated into the tender and chassis! Still, I submit to you to see whether you think the concept, if done on opening the box, would be worth doing whenever someone does a detailed build thread.  It was actually fairly quick to do, but I'll need a bit of help as there are some I can't identify - quite possibly because they aren't part of the actual kit.  I also found that one part was also mis-numbered in the assembly drawing (asterisked in the pic, it's 154 in the diagram, but actually 117 in the casting list.  Given the prominence of the smokebox door handle, I think I'll be replacing that casting, it's well and truly bent, I have no idea how!

So here's the casting list from the instructions:

 

And the first page of castings themselves:

 

Page 2:

Of course, I missed off duplicate sprues, but I was quite surprised I could fit nearly all the castings onto just two sheets of notepaper.

 

Finally, can anyone tell me what these are?

Edited May 10, 2015 by Tim2014

[ozzyo]

Hello Tim,

 

the rivet that you can't identify looks to be the pivot pin for the con rods!

 

OzzyO. 

 

EDIT. I've just re-read my post and I did mean coupling rod rivet not con. rod.

 

I've put the big pointy hat with the big D on it and am going to stand in the corner!!!!

Edited May 10, 2015 by ozzyo

[dikitriki]

Hi Tim,

 

The rivet looks to me like a coupling rod rivet, to articulate the front and rear sections.

 

Richard

Edited May 9, 2015 by dikitriki

[ozzyo]

Hi Tim,

 

The rivet looks to me like a coupling rod rivet, to articulate the front and rear sections.

 

Richard

 

That was what I meant to say in my post above the coupling rod not the con rod.

 

Sorry for the confusion,

 

OzzyO.

[Tim2014]

I concur gentlemen, thank you for your help (again!).  The instructions do clearly show a 'rivet' to articulate the coupling rod.  I just assumed I had to make one since the holes in the etch are so tiny.  You could enlarge them enough to take that rivet I'm sure, but it would be a large amount of material to be removed from what isn't a massively strong piece.  Having now set the axle spacings, I would also worry in my case that I might alter the coupling rod lengths.  I suppose I could try and use one rod as an alignment guide for the other, but that sounds like a real faff.  I'm sure that there are precision engineering tools available to do stuff like this, but I haven't got them and wouldn't have a clue how to use them either.

 

All that said, I think my brass rivet is quite close in appearance to the prototype (it just needs a suitable washer between the rod and the rivet head).  I always intended to redo that joint and have to if I'm to fit the boss on the other side to thicken the etch.  Here's a photo to help you all agree I should ditch the rivet:

Edited May 10, 2015 by Tim2014

[scot6p]

Hi Tim just use the rivet.

 

Len

[Grasshopper John]

Hello Tim, found you at last thanks to OzzyO use the rivet, thats what it was intended for. Put a bit of cigarette rolling paper in between the washer and the coupling rod, this will stop any solder getting through to the coupling rods.

 

Re Instructions I agree with you, I have found quite regularly the written refer to parts that don't appear on the diagrams, sometimes they appear about 3 pages on from the one I'm working from.

 

Grasshopper

Edited May 11, 2015 by Grasshopper John