7mm Gladiator Royal Scot build

[Tim2014]

Hi Folks,

Long time lurker on this great site.  So much experience and wisdom.  Thought it would be worth seeing if there is any interest in my first attempt at a full 7mm brass kit - a Gladiator rebuilt Royal Scot.  It's not quite as bad as it sounds: I've managed to build a compensated 0-6-0 chassis which worked OK and I'm pretty handy generally with a soldering iron.  I've been modelling for ages in various scales/disciplines, but this will be my first foray into the dark arts of brass loco building and I'm sure it will be a bumpy ride, I'm supposed to start with an industrial 0-4-0 I think.!

 

I'm partial to ex-LMR locos in BR green, but I wouldn't call myself a rivet counter, I like things to look 'good enough', after all, it's a hobby and mainly for my benefit, although I completely respect people who want working internal valve gear in their models and to model exact prototypical trains.  But my current layout is O gauge around the garden and so exact scale doesn't really make much sense to me.  I would like to build a loco that wouldn't look out of place on a more scale layout though.

 

 I've always liked the rebuilt Royal Scots and I now have some basic reference material in the mail.  I'm considering modelling 'Royal Air Force' - partly because my Dad flew Vulcans and partly because he has it in his old spotters book. I'd be setting up a continuous springy beam in loco and tender.

 

The first soldering in anger was a complete disaster, but I think I've now got things back on track (scuse pun).  Because I lack hornblocks (advice there anyone?), I figured the tender body was the best place to start (cheapest if it all goes bad), but using an uncontrolled 80W iron with a crappy tip and standard electrical solder was every bit as bad as I thought it could be.  That first joint was enough to realise I needed proper flux, 145 solder and a spade tip for a lower wattage iron.  Wow! What a difference.  Now going together quite well and I just hope I can 'build out' the distortioin in the base plate that the 1st botch put in...

 

So if you are interested, just say and I'll post some pics.  Otherwise, I'll go back to lurkin'!

Edited April 18, 2015 by Tim2014

[jcm@gwr]

Hello Tim,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Good luck with the build, look forward to the pics.

 

Jeff

[peter220950]

Welcome into the limelight, I'm sure we would all like to see progress on your build, it's interesting to see what kits are really like to build, rather than a superficial review in a magazine. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who constantly picks up tips from seeing how others do things.

 

For hornblocks I have usually got on well with Slaters , but there are also Alan Gibson

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/

 

Hobby Holidays, with ball races

http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/

 

and JLRT

http://www.justliketherealthing.co.uk/

 

to consider. - having just got some ball bearings for wagons I might have a go with loco's next time.

 

Look forward to the build.

[Tim2014]

Thanks for your kind support! Slaters hornblocks on the way. Meantime, some pics.

 

Guess which side of the bunker support I did first? This is post-‘fix’ and the angle is OK, it’s just the camera lens.

My pencil torch was very handy for taking it apart from the bodge with the high wattage iron. The mess will be well hidden no doubt, but still, very annoying.

 

Tender end with steps in place and riveting done.

The footplate slots needed opening out only very slightly with a broach to get a good fit.  I used a home made riveter which works OK, but to be honest, they don’t really match the etched rivets all that well so I think I’ll do them with a straight pick by hand in future – I can’t tell the difference when I look and I keep bending 0.7 mm cut down drill shanks with my DIY one.  There are plenty of test rivets supplied on each etch that needs riveting to allow some experimentation.  Investing in a commercial one with an anvil is definitely something I’ll consider if I get this done and think I might build another…

 

First ever lamination.

Take home lesson, line it up before you spot solder it.  Still, sorted without too much trouble.  I’ve been referring to the ‘how to guide’ off Jim McGeowan’s site: http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Loco%20Kit%20Pages/Starter%20Loco.html  It was really confidence building and I hope I’ll return the favour buy buying one his kits soon.  Had I not seen that I’d have tried to tin both sides and then heat both to weld them together.

 

Rear plate in – I was worried the solder might bleed through onto the footplate side because it wasn’t all completely square after my accident with the 80W iron (did I mention that!).  But it wasn’t too bad. I’m using 145 degree solder, flux and a fiberglass brush from DCC concepts – all are awesome.  I can’t believe how easy soldering is with just getting everything nice and clean immediately before making the joint.

 

Rear coal plate and top panel were tack soldered while holding the footplate flat to try and get the warps out of everything.  Then soldered up the seams properly,  That worked pretty well, so hopefully repeating that at the front will get everything square enough to be unnoticeable.

I’ve found the instructions very good, but you do really need some reference pics (I’m learning a lot of new terminology very quickly!). But here, I’m stuck, I have been unable to find any suitable pictures that show detail around the front of the Stanier tender.  I wasn’t sure whether there should be a lip to the face of the shelf in front of the fire iron tunnel.  From messing with the pieces I decided there must be, but I’m not going further until I know for sure.  There is a lip on the etch which implies there shouldn’t be.

I’m also in need of something to guide my assembly of the coal box doors and tool box and door.  They are going to be a bit prominent and I don’t want to get it all too ‘off’.  So that’s it for now.

 

 

Edited February 10 by Tim2014

[Ohmisterporter]

Welcome to the forum Tim. Your riveting looks fine to me and you are doing things the right way, slowly but safely. You are not in a loco building race so take it steady. Looking forward to seeing more.

 

Edit: Just a thought, as you are actually building a kit perhaps you could get more advice in the Kitbuilding and scratchbuilding section. The mods may move you across if you ask.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Ohmisterporter

[Tim2014]

Welcome to the forum Tim. Your riveting looks fine to me and you are doing things the right way, slowly but safely. You are not in a loco building race so take it steady. Looking forward to seeing more.

 

Edit: Just a thought, as you are actually building a kit perhaps you could get more advice in the Kitbuilding and scratchbuilding section. The mods may move you across if you ask.

That's a very good thought! Mods, can you move this to a more appropriate Kitbuilding section please? (or anyone advise if there is a proper way to ask?)

Thanks for the encouragement.  I'm off to hit a pile of old steam magazines now...

[Tim2014]

I found some reference photos and thought about the geometry.  You’d assume the front bulkhead  must be the same height as the back, and when you do that, there would be no lip.  The photos support the idea there is no lip, so that’s what I went with.

 

Sheesh, it’s really worth doing these things right first time! I got everything perfect before tackling the rivet strips with too much heat. Delamination ensued and was back to square one for the second time (but with lumps of solder on everything). That’s when I remembered the 100C solder!

 

 

I’m still not really happy with the rivet strips and will need to do a bit of filling on the top line to hide the join (which was the result of deciding I could never measure the length correctly and then get two curves in the right spot).  You can't really see it in the photos.  I’m very pleased with the ‘look’ of the tool-box.  I added a thin fillet of brass to the top so it overhangs the door which gives it a bit more 3-dimensionality. Feel free to post photos showing I’ve got it horribly wrong! I can imagine these got a lot of abuse in service.

 

The bunker is now formed up and soldered in place and the body is quite rigid as a result.  There’s only around ¼ mm play in the base warp so I’m nearly certain it will not be visible when finished.   Folding the tender side was tricky, it seems to be a very acute bend into a more gentle curve towards the open bunker and I annealed the top section where the bend is required and then slowly worked it until it matched the bulkhead profile.  I decided to go against instructions and will tack solder the fireiron tunnel to shape as I fettle it, leaving the tender side off to get the best fit I can before I solder the side on and remove any easy access to the tunnel.  Now I just need a reference photo of the rear join between fireiron tunnel and bunker, I’d like to choose the coal level in the bunker rather than be forced to use it to cover my mistakes.

 

I did stumble across a couple of Stanier tender builds for other locos on here. The Gladiator etches here look identical to those on the Javelin Black 5 build, presumably same origins?

Edited February 10 by Tim2014

[david.hill64]

Welcome!

 

Looks like you are off to a cracking start!

 

Please keep the pictures coming.

[JeffP]

Great start.

In hindsight, I wish I'd started with the tender body to "Alcazar" and not the chassis.

[scot6p]

Hi Tim, welcome to the forum. I have an David Andrews Rebuilt Royal scot but I am doing it in S7 and also new loco and tender chassis etches. Two good books for the tender is the Wid Swan Black 5 No 5000-5224 and Pictorial Supplement the first one has the chassis and body details and there are some good pictures in the second, don't worry that they are for the Black 5 as both had Stanier tenders. I will be picking up the electric from the tender using split axle pickup using Slaters insulated horn-blocks. I am sure that the chaps on here will help as they are a friendly bunch on here.

 

Len

[Horsetan]

....Two good books for the tender is the Wild Swan Black 5 No 5000-5224 and Pictorial Supplement the first one has the chassis and body details and there are some good pictures in the second, don't worry that they are for the Black 5 as both had Stanier tenders......

 

If you can get hold of a copy of Wild Swan's Locomotive Profile no:1, which covers the Rebuilt Royal Scots in their entirety, that will also be useful to you.

[scot6p]

Hi Horsetan, they are very hard to get and properly expensive.

 

Len

[Tim2014]

Great start.

In hindsight, I wish I'd started with the tender body to "Alcazar" and not the chassis.

I'll have to loook that one up to get the joke.  Or, if you're serious - why? I'm just impatient, which is going to bite me I fear...

[Horsetan]

I'll have to loook that one up to get the joke.  ......

 

Believe me, there are loads of clues.....

[Tim2014]

Thanks for the encouragement and the ideas for references. I quite like Black 5s too so I’ll have a look for the Wild Swan book – I have found that the old reference books are hard to find.  I wanted profile No 1 but no dice.  I do now have LMS/BR Class 7 4-6-0 rebuilds by David Clarke which has a lot of Scot pics, including a good one of Royal Air Force around withdrawal. It’s got some nice colour pics which will be really good in about 10 years when I get round to painting it    Pg 44 also has a pic of Scots Guardsman’s tender front in the 80s and that’s been my main source for the front along with a couple of pics I found on the web.  Also got the Power of the Royal Scots.

 

I was going to get the Stanier tender drawing off an online hobbystore site, but it seemed to have no internal detail which is where I’m now in the dark: fire-iron tunnels…I Finding photos of empty tenders in service is not easy, no doubt it very rarely happened and when it did, it wasn’t in the sort of places that wanted photographers crawling inside of the tender.  So again, I’ve guessed, and used a little bit of logic.  Pointing out flaws in that logic  - or even better, factual corrections would be most welcome.

 

I’m quite pleased with my strategy of doing the fire iron tunnel first.  I think it will make for a cleaner finish in the end, and less swearing!  Because the assembly drawings only really identify which bits go where, they aren’t adequate to show the exact orientation of 3D shapes, and the fireiron tunnel has a lot of complex angles intersecting.

 

Once I’d cut the bits off the fret, I could place them in position and see roughly what was supposed to happen.  I figured the rear of the tunnel runs parallel to the tender side when viewed from above, and Gladiator provide some profiled supports which I figured ought to give the approximate profile of the floor and two sides (the 3^rd side of the tunnel being the tender side).When folded up and placed in position it was apparent that with only a little filing, it would then sit with the top edge of the tunnel (which joins the tender side) parallel to the top of the tender when viewed from the side.  The complex bit would be the front of the tunnel.  I went on the shape of the etch as provided and with no filing at all could get a pretty smooth join at the bottom to the tunnel base, to the adjacent tunnel rear, and to the front tender bulkhead and to the tender side.  Sounds good? But I have a feeling it’s wrong as it produces a slight slope on this piece disrupting the parallel flow in the horizontal orientation that the rear of the tunnel looks like it should have in side view.  If you good folks indicate the front tunnel top should maintain that clean horizontal line, I should be able to desolder it, file a triangular section off the front edge and another off the top edge and then bend the top front corner down.  The clincher that makes me think that’s the way to go is that if I DID do that, the profile of the tunnel aperture would be maintained around it, as well as the nice smooth horizontal parallel line.  But I’m lazy and my wife hates filing in the living room (workbench, what’s that?!) so I've done it the easy way first.

 

A few pictures no doubt tell the story far better…

Once I'd fettled the rear, I tacked it in place, then laid the tender side against it and remelted the spot to get it sitting flush against the tender side.

 

This is from the other side, dead easy to get the iron in here with the side off, which was the thinking behind doing it this way:

 

 

Now a lot later (!) with the front of the tunnel in location. The tender side is just held in place, you can see how the front of the tunnel slopes down from the front bulkhead. I wonder if it should be at the same height along the tender side as the rear of the tunnel?

 

A bit of filling will be needed between the aperture and the tender side, I can use a fillet of brass, or maybe I did something wrong?

 

Could do with a decent ref pic for this area - lots of joins and curves! (Remember the side is only resting in place).

 

 

And this is why I did it, all the mess on the inside out of sight! (Remember I said I warped the base? This isn't it, it's a 'trick' of the camera fortunately!)

 

This was supposed to show the transition between the rear and front of the tunnel top edge which joins to the tender side (eventually!).  Should it be a dead straight line?

 

Of course the whole thing could be completely rubbish and it might be time for the blow lamp again, but at least I haven't warped anything (unintentionally).  And just one confession, I'm enjoying this so much I invested in a cheap temp controlled soldering station.  It does make things more predictable and I would definitely recommend it for newbies like me, it makes the whole process a lot more enjoyable.

 

 

Edited February 15 by Tim2014

[scot6p]

Hi Tim, the person you need to talk to is Richard Lambert (ie Dikitriki on Western Thunder) he has built a David Andrews one.

[ozzyo]

Hello Tim2014,

 

this link may help you a bit, it's a David Andrews kit but from the same family of kits as the one you have.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70310-anne-and-me-from-the-das-kit-in-7mm/page-6

 

OzzyO.

 

PS. I don't think that I've built a tender that has this shape etched correctly.

[N15class]

Great start.

In hindsight, I wish I'd started with the tender body to "Alcazar" and not the chassis.

I always like to get the frames done first then the body can be adjusted if needed, it is harder if it is built.

 

Thanks for the encouragement and the ideas for references. I quite like Black 5s too so I’ll have a look for the Wild Swan book – I have found that the old reference books are hard to find.  I wanted profile No 1 but no dice.  I do now have LMS/BR Class 7 4-6-0 rebuilds by David Clarke which has a lot of Scot pics, including a good one of Royal Air Force around withdrawal. It’s got some nice colour pics which will be really good in about 10 years when I get round to painting it    Pg 44 also has a pic of Scots Guardsman’s tender front in the 80s and that’s been my main source for the front along with a couple of pics I found on the web.  Also got the Power of the Royal Scots.

 

I was going to get the Stanier tender drawing off an online hobbystore site, but it seemed to have no internal detail which is where I’m now in the dark: fire-iron tunnels…I Finding photos of empty tenders in service is not easy, no doubt it very rarely happened and when it did, it wasn’t in the sort of places that wanted photographers crawling inside of the tender.  So again, I’ve guessed, and used a little bit of logic.  Pointing out flaws in that logic  - or even better, factual corrections would be most welcome.

 

I’m quite pleased with my strategy of doing the fire iron tunnel first.  I think it will make for a cleaner finish in the end, and less swearing!  Because the assembly drawings only really identify which bits go where, they aren’t adequate to show the exact orientation of 3D shapes, and the fireiron tunnel has a lot of complex angles intersecting.

 

Once I’d cut the bits off the fret, I could place them in position and see roughly what was supposed to happen.  I figured the rear of the tunnel runs parallel to the tender side when viewed from above, and Gladiator provide some profiled supports which I figured ought to give the approximate profile of the floor and two sides (the 3^rd side of the tunnel being the tender side).When folded up and placed in position it was apparent that with only a little filing, it would then sit with the top edge of the tunnel (which joins the tender side) parallel to the top of the tender when viewed from the side.  The complex bit would be the front of the tunnel.  I went on the shape of the etch as provided and with no filing at all could get a pretty smooth join at the bottom to the tunnel base, to the adjacent tunnel rear, and to the front tender bulkhead and to the tender side.  Sounds good? But I have a feeling it’s wrong as it produces a slight slope on this piece disrupting the parallel flow in the horizontal orientation that the rear of the tunnel looks like it should have in side view.  If you good folks indicate the front tunnel top should maintain that clean horizontal line, I should be able to desolder it, file a triangular section off the front edge and another off the top edge and then bend the top front corner down.  The clincher that makes me think that’s the way to go is that if I DID do that, the profile of the tunnel aperture would be maintained around it, as well as the nice smooth horizontal parallel line.  But I’m lazy and my wife hates filing in the living room (workbench, what’s that?!) so I've done it the easy way first.

 

A few pictures no doubt tell the story far better…

Once I'd fettled the rear, I tacked it in place, then laid the tender side against it and remelted the spot to get it sitting flush against the tender side.

PB190015.JPG

 

This is from the other side, dead easy to get the iron in here with the side off, which was the thinking behind doing it this way:

PB190016.JPG

 

Now a lot later (!) with the front of the tunnel in location. The tender side is just held in place, you can see how the front of the tunnel slopes down from the front bulkhead. I wonder if it should be at the same height along the tender side as the rear of the tunnel?

PB190018.JPG

 

A bit of filling will be needed between the aperture and the tender side, I can use a fillet of brass, or maybe I did something wrong?

PB190019.JPG

 

Could do with a decent ref pic for this area - lots of joins and curves! (Remember the side is only resting in place).

PB190020.JPG

 

And this is why I did it, all the mess on the inside out of sight! (Remember I said I warped the base? This isn't it, it's a 'trick' of the camera fortunately!)

PB190021.JPG

 

This was supposed to show the transition between the rear and front of the tunnel top edge which joins to the tender side (eventually!).  Should it be a dead straight line?

PB190023.JPG

 

Of course the whole thing could be completely rubbish and it might be time for the blow lamp again, but at least I haven't warped anything (unintentionally).  And just one confession, I'm enjoying this so much I invested in a cheap temp controlled soldering station.  It does make things more predictable and I would definitely recommend it for newbies like me, it makes the whole process a lot more enjoyable.

Nice work I will follow with interest.

 

I have not built many LMS engines

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim, the person you need to talk to is Richard Lambert (ie Dikitriki on Western Thunder) he has built a David Andrews one.[attachment=499622:Dikitriki Royal Scot.jpg

Ah now that is a pic to inspire me! Lovely work.

[Tim2014]

Hello Tim2014,

 

this link may help you a bit, it's a David Andrews kit but from the same family of kits as the one you have.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70310-anne-and-me-from-the-das-kit-in-7mm/page-6

 

OzzyO.

 

PS. I don't think that I've built a tender that has this shape etched correctly.

Thanks OzzyO - That thread is really helpful.  I think you're right - going by the etch shape isn't the way to go.  Photos are required!I I may be able to score the Wild Swan pictorial tomorrow... Having just read *all* of Jeff's thread of woe on Alcazar maybe I'll stop beating myself up for taking so long! And thank my lucky stars I did start with the tender body.  My confidence to tackle CSB has taken a bit of a hit after hearing about Jeff's experiences, but hopefully I can avoid some of the pitfalls thanks to his efforts documenting things and the comments of others on here.

 

I do worry about the fit between the body and frames...time will tell.  Still waiting on hornblocks.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Tim2014

[Horsetan]

.....Having just read (some) of Jeff's thread on Alcazar maybe I'll stop beating myself up for taking so long!

 

See also the seemingly unending run of questions that he has on OzzyO's thread 

[N15class]

Thanks OzzyO - That thread is really helpful.  I think you're right - going by the etch shape isn't the way to go.  Photos are required!I I may be able to score the Wild Swan pictorial tomorrow... Having just read *all* of Jeff's thread of woe on Alcazar maybe I'll stop beating myself up for taking so long! And thank my lucky stars I did start with the tender body.  My confidence to tackle CSB has taken a bit of a hit after hearing about Jeff's experiences, but hopefully I can avoid some of the pitfalls thanks to his efforts documenting things and the comments of others on here.

 

I do worry about the fit between the body and frames...time will tell.  Still waiting on hornblocks.

I think Jeff was stepping in with both feet without thinking about how it all was going to happen. Like cut out for the horn guides with working out how to put them back in the right place

A bit of ask the question after the c@ck up not before.

 

[dikitriki]

Hi Tim, the person you need to talk to is Richard Lambert (ie Dikitriki on Western Thunder) he has built a David Andrews one.[attachment=499622:Dikitriki Royal Scot.jpg

 

Hi Tim

 

I really must finish that off!.

 

I'm on here as well

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[farren]

Hi if your still after books on the scots. I got the power of the scot. And lms locomotive profiles no 1 scots. For just over £20 for both.

 

Give Maynard and Bradley a ring. Of Leicester 0116-2532712. I manage to get most of my books from them. If they don't have it in they can find it for you.

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim

 

I really must finish that off!.

 

I'm on here as well

 

Cheers

 

Richard

I wandered over there last night and considered signing up to look at the photos! Congratulations on what looks like a beautiful model. As a piece of engineering/art I think they do look good in the raw, but there's nothing like watching them hurtle towards you and past at eye level with a rake of coaches in tow (if only we could replicate the smoke - I'm outdoors so it might not destroy my marriage!). What's still to do on it, just painting?

 

Can I ask how you went with the fire-iron tunnel - any pointers?

 

I thought I had divine blessing for my build as it looked like our 'local' second hand book shop had a copy of the Wild Swan Locomotive Profiles No5 in stock which is pretty unlikely given my location, but slightly sadly - it was the pictorial supplements and although I procured both and both do have some great pics of the more visible areas (including a Scot tender front), there are none of the bunker area.  Looks like I'm on for a quest for profile No1 and No 5 on international order and the build might have to go on ice.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Tim2014