H 33 restaurant carriage finished

[Ressaldar]

Hi Rick,

 

yes, but I have 'cut and shuffled' the sides to the revised diagram for the Inspection Saloon, but the window style is the correct version - post 1939 revisions.

 

cheers

 

Mike

[Adrian Wintle]

Humpy's comments are noted. BUT, please remember I'm new to railway modelling, WHAT ARE 9617 & 9586 in terms that a simpleton like me can understand?? Am I correct in thinking one of these is the H33 Collett, bow ended, Restaurant Composite shown at http://www.gwr.org.uk/rtr/Hornby-collett-restaurant.jpg? And the other is some kind of Collet, bow ended, Composite Open (Parlour?)??

 

Also, (getting very confused now) could anyone please tell me whether these Colletts would have had their windows upgraded to the Mk1 type at my featured 1957-58 running period, as per the coach design that's the subject of this discussion thread? I've read, somewhere, that all of BR(Western Region)'s older dining sets had their windows upgraded, by BR order, at the time they were repainted in BR(W)'s passenger express livery of chocolate and cream. 

 

 

9617 is an H39 Restaurant First, 9586 is an H36 Composite Dining Saloon. The H33s were self-contained Restaurant Composites and were intended for cross-country trains and so wouldn't normally have been on an express. There were only 4 of them (and five more of the very similar, but flat-ended H25s). Hornby modelled the H33 because it was the same size as the other coaches they did at the time so that some of the components could be reused (underframe, ends, bogies).

 

The windows on the catering cars were rebuilt either just pre-war or just post-war. By 1957-58 they were coming to the end of their lives.

 

Adrian

[Coach bogie]

The rebuild with mk1 style windows began in the late 1930's by Swindon and continued after the war with private contractor Hamptons with all surviving vehicles having replacement windows, new interiors and revised cooking equipment. By the early 1950's all had been refurbished.

 

As Adrian states, by 1957 the H33 days were numbered. Two were gone by 1959, one had been rebuilt as a buffet car (became an engineers saloon in 1960) and the fourth lasted a little longer until 1961. Just because they were still in capital stock, does not mean they were being used. Old Oak would keep them as spares. As ChrisF states by 1957 the WR was being allocated mark 1 catering vehicles and original GWR designs were kept in reserve.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[chrisf]

 

So, my understanding is that:

• 70021's 1957-58 Red Dragon formation should include the dining pair 9617+9586.
• 92220's June 1960 named express runs could reuse the above dining pair on the Red Dragon (& use a BR RU on the Capitals United, with the coach formation supplied in the famous message #30.)

 

He's got it.  By George he's got it!

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

Adrian and Mike,
Thank you both for taking the time to use simple words for a simple man.
So, we're talking about the following two coaches (see first picture, of restaurant, second of composite dining saloon, below.).

 

The following images represent the H39, Restaurant First, and H36, Composite Dining Saloon, based coaches -- not the H33 self-contained Composite that is the main subject of this thread.

 

Rick

Edited December 14, 2014 by Rascally Bear

[Adrian Wintle]

That's it, although the ventilators look too deep on the H36 (should be more like those on the H39, based on the photo in Russell). Actually, the bottom picture looks like a C77 corridor third painted as a compo - the Mainline/Bachmann RTR coach. The H36 does not appear to have toilets.

 

Adrian

Edited December 13, 2014 by Adrian Wintle

[70021 Morning Star]

Cheers, Adrian,
Don't suppose you/anyone recognise the top  H39 RF model?
The second one is a Bachmann 34-151 Collett Composite Coach.

Rick

[Coach bogie]

Top image H39 appears to be from the Comet website

 

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/modules/viewcatpic.php/8/637

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Coach bogie]

If you want easy fix for the windows, I suggested earlier, using Kitmaster marl 1's. I do not know what they will finally go for but there is a pair here, starting price £1.49,  that will give all the windows you need, with frames moulded in to give a flush glaze appearance.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KITMASTERS-OO-GAUGE-COACHES-KIT-BUILT-/261700704444?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3cee93d8bc

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited December 14, 2014 by Coach bogie

[westerner]

All the bits have arrived from Wizard/Comet and I've discovered a snag. The etched sides measure out at a scale 57ft 6ins. whilst the Hornby donor body is a true scale 57ft. I was wondering how to lose the extra 2mm ie how to do I cut a preformed side? any help would be gratefully received.

[Adrian Wintle]

The Comet sides were intentionally made a little overlength so that they would overlap the extra length added by the Hornby ends. Older versions of the instructions stated this and suggested taking 1mm off each end if scratchbuilding a coach. Of course, the original sides weren't pre-formed, so shortening them was easier. I have shortened the pre-formed sides with a saw, though.

 

Adrian

Edited December 14, 2014 by Adrian Wintle

[Coach bogie]

All the bits have arrived from Wizard/Comet and I've discovered a snag. The etched sides measure out at a scale 57ft 6ins. whilst the Hornby donor body is a true scale 57ft. I was wondering how to lose the extra 2mm ie how to do I cut a preformed side? any help would be gratefully received.

 Many of the Comet sides are overlength by design to give the modeller a bit extra depending on how the sides were going to be used. Just mark the length you want and then either cut with sharp tinsnips/scissors (you will have to correct any distortions), or cut with an exacto type saw.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[chrisf]

If you want easy fix for the windows, I suggested earlier, using Kitmaster marl 1's. I do not know what they will finally go for but there is a pair here, starting price £1.49,  that will give all the windows you need, with frames moulded in to give a flush glaze appearance.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KITMASTERS-OO-GAUGE-COACHES-KIT-BUILT-/261700704444?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3cee93d8bc

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Alternatively, CooperCraft sell [sometimes] the windows from their Mk 1 kits.

 

Chris

[chrisf]

 Many of the Comet sides are overlength by design to give the modeller a bit extra depending on how the sides were going to be used. Just mark the length you want and then either cut with sharp tinsnips/scissors (you will have to correct any distortions), or cut with an exacto type saw.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

I discovered this when beginning work on an E128.  I scribed lines 228 mm apart [= 57 feet] and filed the excess length away.  Laboriously.  It's one way of enduring Strictly Come Prancing ...  I wonder how many poor souls have assembled a coach without realising that the side are too long.

 

I also took out the tumblehome by placing each side in turn in a set of bending bars and tightening them with the thumbscrews provided and by holding the bars in a vice.  To add a less inaccurate curve I placed the sides against a bevel edged rule and stroked the back gently with a craft knife handle.

 

Since then the project has languished for other reasons but it's a start.

 

Chris

[westerner]

Thanks Adrian, Mike and Chris, I have had ago at some spare brass sprue with all of your methods, I'm still not sure which one to employ. I think I'll have a chat to a couple of mates who are used to cutting and fettling brass when they scratch built locos

[The Fatadder]

This has got me thinking about converting one as a quick stop gap to go with my cross country set.

Have a load of Bachmann mk1 windows which can be re used.

 

Just need to find a good value doner model now...

[westerner]

You'll find the windows are about 2.5mm deeper than the original windows on the Hornby coach to the original build.

[westerner]

Sorry if above not very clear. If you are altering the Hornby (Railroad) Collet restaurant coach to the later spec Ie Mk 1 type ventilators in the windows you will also have to make the windows some 2.5mm deeper as the GWR when they did the alteration in 1939 not only changed the ventilators at the top of the window they made the whole window larger.

[The Fatadder]

Thanks for that, not a major job at any rate.

Trying to decide between buying a nicely finished railroad model to convert or a cheap old one which will require a full respray. (I am right in saying that other than a different logo the only other difference between the 20s double lined livery and the 40s version is a thicker upper brown band?

[70021 Morning Star]

Ref the H39 Restaurant Car (i.e. not the main subject of this thread)
 
I'm wondering whether a Bachmann 60ft or 57ft Collett (possibly 34-051) might form the basis of a conversion. Yes, it'd require a lot of cutting-and-shunting, but looks as though it might be feasible. Thoughts, anyone?
 
Also, I only have the one picture of the Comet models version (shown above), so have no idea what the other side of an H39 would look like. Anyone got any pictures? -- UPDATE found some pictures. Severn Valley Railway has the pair of H39 Restaurant and H36 Salon. (See http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/images/9615_600px.jpg)   
 
And, finally, if I'm not talking total nonsense, would the H39 be closer to 57ft or 60ft?
 
[edited] After studying the photographs of the Severn Valley Railway H39, it looks like a Bachmann Mk1 BSK would make the best donor vehicle. It has the windows, doors, and wall panels that are needed. Just the chassis length to establish. Everything else is doable.

 

Thanks to Coach Bogie for the plans, assuming my math is correct, I've established a 60' Collett is needed for the chassis, and the Mk1 BSK for the various windows etc. (I'll recheck the math and confirm for anyone who is interested in the H39.)
 
Thanks,
Rick

Edited December 16, 2014 by Rascally Bear

[Coach bogie]

Also, I only have the one picture of the Comet models version (shown above), so have no idea what the other side of an H39 would look like. Anyone got any pictures?

Rick

With respect, if you need this level of info, you really need to buy the books. See PM for plans/photo

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Well, Mike,

I have to disagree. Yes, I'm building a collection of book but, meanwhile, isn't that the point of having a forum?

 

I'm an expert in my area, but new to railway modelling. I've always worked on the basis of encouraging newcomers, possibly with a pm, if appropriate.

 

Rick

[Adrian Wintle]

Yes, I'm building a collection of book but, meanwhile, isn't that the point of having a forum?

 

True, but anyone responding to questions about GWR coaching stock is likely going to refer to one of five books, so having copies of them is very useful, even when asking questions on the forum.

 

Basically there are the 4 volumes of Russell (Vol 1, Vol 2, Appendix 1 and Appendix 2 -If you are modelling post war you can probably get away without Vol 1), and Harris.

See the top entries in the coaches section here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nolitt.html

 

Adrian

[Karhedron]

Ref the H39 Restaurant Car (i.e. not the main subject of this thread)

 

I'm wondering whether a Bachmann 60ft or 57ft Collett (possibly 34-051) might form the basis of a conversion. Yes, it'd require a lot of cutting-and-shunting, but looks as though it might be feasible. Thoughts, anyone?

 

Also, I only have the one picture of the Comet models version (shown above), so have no idea what the other side of an H39 would look like. Anyone got any pictures? --UPDATE found some pictures. Severn Valley Railway has the pair of H39 Restaurant and H36 Salon. (See http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/images/9615_600px.jpg)

 

And, finally, if I'm not talking total nonsense, would the H39 be closer to 57ft or 60ft?

 

Hello,

 

Firstly I believe that the H39 (Restaurant First) did not run on its own but was always paired with an H40 (Restaurant Third). If you are looking for an easy single vehicle conversion then the H38 (Restaurant composite) might be an option although I do not believe any of these were painted in chocolate and cream during BR days. Like the earlier composites, they tended to work less prestigous routes.

 

The H38, H39 and H40 are all bow-ended vehicles. As such, the easiest place to start might actually be with a Hornby B-set coach and then attach Comet etched sides. The size and shape of the vehicles are broadly correct although there are plenty of details you can add if you wish to do so.

 

I made an H38 in N gauge using TPM sides on a Dapol B-set coach body and it turned out pretty well. Doing the same in 00 should be quite feasible.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2014 by Karhedron

[70021 Morning Star]

Thanks Karhedron,

They look great.

Yes, the two carriages were always seen as a pair.

The pairing was used, as standard, on the 1960 BR Western Region prestigious Capitals United Express, so (pending evidence to the contrary) may be assumed to have appeared in the Chocolate & Cream livery.

Thanks to the help of others, I now have my bookshop list for the new year, so this will be a project for 2015.

My thank you to everyone for your assistance (and tolerance) in my seeking guidance from your expertise. That's what makes rmweb exceptional!

 

Rick