Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[Poggy1165]

I would love to know when the Manvers Main livery changed to  Manvers

                                                                                                        Main

 

Given this was a truly massive fleet of wagons, (certainly many hundreds, if not thousands) there are relatively few pictures, at least, published pictures. Still fewer pre-group.

 

There were also some wagons lettered (from 1915)

 

Manvers Main Collieries Ltd (top plank)

Barnbro Main (third and fourth planks)

 

(Source Turton Volume 5 page 113)

 

By the way Richard, if you think some of your wagons are off piste so to speak, you can always form them into a Jellicoe special. During WW1 these ran from South Wales to the Far North (for Scapa Flow) by all manner of routes, some of them highly unconventional. The wagons were requisitioned/hired from a wide variety of sources; albeit I think many were of Welsh origin.

[Caley Jim]

By the way Richard, if you think some of your wagons are off piste so to speak, you can always form them into a Jellicoe special. During WW1 these ran from South Wales to the Far North (for Scapa Flow) by all manner of routes, some of them highly unconventional. The wagons were requisitioned/hired from a wide variety of sources; albeit I think many were of Welsh origin.

After WWI all, or at least most, PO mineral wagons were pooled, so any livery could, in theory, turn up anywhere.

 

BTW, one of the Jellicoe Specials was involved in the Quintinshill disaster, being the train of empties in the up loop, waiting for space at Kingmoor yard.

 

Jim

[Poggy1165]

After WWI all, or at least most, PO mineral wagons were pooled, so any livery could, in theory, turn up anywhere.

 

BTW, one of the Jellicoe Specials was involved in the Quintinshill disaster, being the train of empties in the up loop, waiting for space at Kingmoor yard.

 

Jim

 

I think the pooling of POs was at the time of WW2.

 

It was seeing a photo of Quintinshill that pricked my memory about Jellicoe specials, as some Welsh POs were very prominent. Feeding coal to the Fleet was an absolute A1 priority - some even got routed over obscure single-line Welsh railways, such were the capacity issues.

 

As an aside, some GC coaches were destroyed in the crash, forming part of the troop train. That GC coaches found themselves in Scotland carrying troops shows that in wartime almost anything could happen. They were mostly grotty old six wheelers, that were probably not ideally suited to being pulled along at express speeds. They were also vacuum braked, so presumably the Caley engine was dual fitted and had to use the unfamiliar vacuum. Less than ideal. Those coaches were probably scraped out of back sidings, the sort of stock normally kept for race meetings or day trips to Cleethorpes. A great tragedy, and a huge loss of life.

[richard i]

I would love to know when the Manvers Main livery changed to  Manvers

                                                                                                        Main

 

Given this was a truly massive fleet of wagons, (certainly many hundreds, if not thousands) there are relatively few pictures, at least, published pictures. Still fewer pre-group.

 

There were also some wagons lettered (from 1915)

 

Manvers Main Collieries Ltd (top plank)

Barnbro Main (third and fourth planks)

 

(Source Turton Volume 5 page 113)

 

By the way Richard, if you think some of your wagons are off piste so to speak, you can always form them into a Jellicoe special. During WW1 these ran from South Wales to the Far North (for Scapa Flow) by all manner of routes, some of them highly unconventional. The wagons were requisitioned/hired from a wide variety of sources; albeit I think many were of Welsh origin.

My issue was less area specific as I had tried to be good about that, mine was more date specific, some must be 1923 and on. I was told that the number moved to the left hand side post 1923, though some had mover earlier. The manners main ones I have just picked up have GCR on them . The ones I got earlier do not and are bigger wagons so most likely muck newer.

Richard

[richard i]

Progress

The end t section is fitted.

Now body and chassis are married up it has become apparent that I did not take into account 1 dimension. Height. They will be 9inches too high. It is not off the top though, it is off the sloping section, still not decided if it is really worth up sticking it all to shave off the 3mm. The end result could look worse than leaving it. Apart from those who read this who will notice? Certainly few who view the layout here in the states. That might not be the best bench mark though as they group all UK freight stock together as those funny little four wheel jobs.

Richard

[Andy Hayter]

You can probably invent a good excuse for many colliery wagons - even those far from home - given that coal came in a number of grades and was tailored for specific uses.  Gassing coal was used in gas works and I think metal furnaces, coking coal to produce coke (certainly for metal furnaces), steam coal for boilers and metal furnaces and anthracite for often specific uses where very high heat output was needed.  You could go to the trouble of looking at the historic records for each colliery and see what sort(s) of coal they produced - just wait for a wet cold day with nothing better to do.  Most collieries seem to have worked several seams at the same time and each seam could produce quite different grades of coal.

 

As an example Manvers seems to have worked many seams:

Manvers Main was a gigantic pit, working 3000 acres of coal in the Meltonfield, Swallow Wood, Parkgate, Silkstone, Thorncliffe, Barnsley Bed, and Winter seams.

 

http://thevalley.uk.com/uncategorized/manvers-main/

 

 

 

The ones to watch are the traders wagons, for example your cooperative society wagon would run between the colliery and Stockport.  If Dettingen is off that route then you really will need to invent a good reason for it being there.  I have the same issue with my Haltemprice Quay and trader wagons.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Andy Hayter

[Andy Hayter]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_Seams_of_the_South_Yorkshire_Coalfield

 

 

Gives a few hints of the complexity in just one small geographic area.

[t-b-g]

When I exhibited Tickhill & Wadworth I relied very heavily on the excellent Bachmann "Blue Riband" private owner wagons until my good friend John Quick mentioned that the size of the wagons was wrong for the pre WW1 date, as they were based on the 1923 RCH design. This had never occurred to me previously but I looked at the relative sizes of the 1923 and the previous designs and it was like running HO wagons and OO wagons together.

 

Now these things matter to some people more than others but I set to work replacing the RTR wagons with kits from Slaters and Cambrian of the earlier types and once I knew that the difference was there, I felt it was worth the extra effort.

 

In the photo above, the Sherwood wagon is the older design (probably from a pre-printed Mike's Models kit - mine was!) and the Co-op one next door is the 1923 version, which demonstrates the difference quite well.

 

I would never dream of telling anybody what they should or shouldn't run on their layout but if I had collected that bunch of wagons, I may be tempted to either weed the larger ones out or at least not run the big and small ones in the same train together. 

[billbedford]

 They were mostly grotty old six wheelers, that were probably not ideally suited to being pulled along at express speeds. They were also vacuum braked, so presumably the Caley engine was dual fitted and had to use the unfamiliar vacuum. Less than ideal. Those coaches were probably scraped out of back sidings, the sort of stock normally kept for race meetings or day trips to Cleethorpes. A great tragedy, and a huge loss of life.

 

 

This just isn't true, Almost all of the coaches destroyed at Quintenshill were lets than 20 years old, at a time when coaches were expected to last in normal service around 30-40 years.

Edited October 30, 2016 by billbedford

[billbedford]

By the way Richard, if you think some of your wagons are off piste so to speak, you can always form them into a Jellicoe special. During WW1 these ran from South Wales to the Far North (for Scapa Flow) by all manner of routes, some of them highly unconventional. The wagons were requisitioned/hired from a wide variety of sources; albeit I think many were of Welsh origin.

 

The Jellicoe specials ran from S. Wales up the North and West line to Shrewsbury and Crewe, then up the WCML. They unloaded in to colliers in the poets around the Firth of Forth, simply because the Highland main line just didn't have the capacity to handle coal trains and well as the extra traffic the war brought to the North.

[Caley Jim]

...........They were also vacuum braked, so presumably the Caley engine was dual fitted and had to use the unfamiliar vacuum. Less than ideal. ............. A great tragedy, and a huge loss of life.

Less than ideal, certainly, but there was no fault on the part of the loco crew of the troop train.  The driver was running under clear signals and his view of the local train, which had been shunted across onto the up main, was obscured by the curve of the track, an overbridge and a freight in the down loop.  It was only at the last minute that he had sight of the obstruction, with little or no chance for a brake application.  If you want a comprehensive view of all the many factors which contributed to the disaster, read 'The Quintinshill Conspiracy'.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

When I exhibited Tickhill & Wadworth I relied very heavily on the excellent Bachmann "Blue Riband" private owner wagons until my good friend John Quick mentioned that the size of the wagons was wrong for the pre WW1 date, as they were based on the 1923 RCH design. This had never occurred to me previously but I looked at the relative sizes of the 1923 and the previous designs and it was like running HO wagons and OO wagons together.

 

Now these things matter to some people more than others but I set to work replacing the RTR wagons with kits from Slaters and Cambrian of the earlier types and once I knew that the difference was there, I felt it was worth the extra effort.

 

In the photo above, the Sherwood wagon is the older design (probably from a pre-printed Mike's Models kit - mine was!) and the Co-op one next door is the 1923 version, which demonstrates the difference quite well.

 

I would never dream of telling anybody what they should or shouldn't run on their layout but if I had collected that bunch of wagons, I may be tempted to either weed the larger ones out or at least not run the big and small ones in the same train together. 

 

Indeed - the truth is in the carrying capacity (with due allowance for variations in the density of the coal from different regions or even, I would guess, different pits and seams). See my comparison of Slater's Gloucester 8T and Parkside RCH 1923 12T wagons - ignore the "10T" branding on the smaller wagon, that's just PowSides fitting a known livery onto an available kit. A 12T wagon will have 50% greater volume than an 8T wagon. That said, I must have 40-odd Bachmann PO wagons being pulled around my layout by engines in early BR livery...

[richard i]

Oh the can of worms I have opened. On the plus sides I do want to run through the era so the larger ones can make up an lner train. I can run them for now and in time replace them with more appropriate ones on a one in one out policy and it will distract attention away from the 3mm discrepancy in the hopper wagons.

In all seriousness I appriciate all the advice, it helps to make the railway more accurate and until someone points out something we have missed we do not notice it and do do not look to change it.

Richard

[Andy Hayter]

Rather than a can of worms I think it is a very interesting subject - and not just constrained to mineral wagons. All forms of freight need to have a purpose and facilities to handle them.

 

Most people would not notice or even care.  You at least have asked the appropriate question.

 

T-b-g's observations on size was something I was vaguely aware of but had not until now put properly into context - I think I have a number of Dinnington wagons that are going to have to go into the LNER pile.

 

Within all of this it is important to remember that while RCH had major/supreme influence on wagon design, they did not work in isolation of the real world of freight wagons.  So the 1923 (or the earlier versions) design criteria did not suddenly appear out of the blue, but encapsulated best practice that was already being used.  It means that a 1923 design wagon could be used for an earlier period - just not too many and not too far back from 1923.

[Poggy1165]

Private owner wagons are an extremely complex subject. Almost a hobby in themselves. I doubt there is a single model railway that has got them all 100% correct - if such a beast exists, it probably belongs to the like of Chris Crofts, someone who is a specialist. Apart from anything else, it is extremely rare, if not unknown, to have a comprehensive set of photographs of the wagons of a given owner as they were in a particular year. These people were always - or at least often - changing their liveries. Often we're lucky to have just one photo of an owner's wagons, and undated. 

 

Moving the number to the left was a RCH requirement of a particular year. I think around 1912. However, before that date many wagons had their number to the left anyway! Obviously it took years to repaint everything and all you can say if you see a number in the centre or to the right is that the paint job probably precedes that instruction. 

[richard i]

Sides on

You would have thought I could get more done at the weekend but I only managed a couple of hours late Sunday night. I also had to do every thing in my power not to put them on the wrong way around. They are handed. Not obvious here but little holes have been drilled for handrails etc.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

I am quite fascinated by this conversion, Richard, not least because in theory it could be emulated in 7mm scale. Cutting a scale 9 inches out of the sloping bits does sound a bit scary though.

I have never seen this particular diagram modelled, so you could end up with something unique.

[richard i]

I am quite fascinated by this conversion, Richard, not least because in theory it could be emulated in 7mm scale. Cutting a scale 9 inches out of the sloping bits does sound a bit scary though.

I have never seen this particular diagram modelled, so you could end up with something unique.

I will have two. it would be easier second time round to cut out the extra as you could do it whilst it was flat on the sprue. I am sure it is not beyond the wit of man to then make up castings to mass produce them. So far i have only attempted simple casting, this looks like it would need a two halves system. The ammount you would cut out on the slope would be as near as 9mm as to almost not ake it worth drawing a simple triange to work it out. Though that might change in 7mm. I would be tempted to do it to prove my theory but then i woud have one of correct hight and two wrong which would be more noticable than two wrong ones. Unless i gave away these first two as prototypes and do the improved version for myself.

Richard

[gr.king]

I wondered if you would think about saving effort by modifying just one to get the correct height and then use it as a resin casting pattern. Go on, you know you want to.....

[richard i]

I wondered if you would think about saving effort by modifying just one to get the correct height and then use it as a resin casting pattern. Go on, you know you want to.....

I would do it to see if i could do the two halves molding. I would need to work out with all the air pockets what was going into one piece. Being at a distance it means You tube and RMweb are my guides in these matters.

I do understand i will only get better by having a go. It is the only way i will get a GCR Parker bogie

Richard

[richard i]

Technically that would be a breach of copyright, although it is also getting close to the point of using so little that starting from scratch might be a better idea!

Legally would i not break copyright if i made no money from them and just molded for myself? Even if i sold them would i not be selling a different product as i had altered it and i was not trying to pass it off as Parkside. I am not a law man so i am open to correction. .......Has parkside got a world wide copyright as i am in the states? Legal brains answers?

Richard

[gr.king]

If you alter the original parts beyond recognition and say nothing about their origins...........

[Caley Jim]

......They were also vacuum braked, so presumably the Caley engine was dual fitted and had to use the unfamiliar vacuum. Less than ideal.

I forgot to add in post 669 above that on dual fitted CR locomotives the vacuum and Westinghouse brake handles were adjacent to one another and mechanically linked such that both brakes were applied simultaneously.

 

Jim

[richard i]

I think this is like the tax inspector saying there is tax payment , tax avoidance and tax evasion. One is right, one is wrong and the third is a sliding scale of gray.

Richard

[Edwardian]

de minimus is the phrase that springs to mind.

 

When resurrecting some of my childhood Airfix tanks for my son some years ago, I made Greenstuff moulds to reproduce the odd missing or damaged component.  No, I don't lie awake at night fearing a knock at the door.