DMU conversions for Sheffield Exchange

[Clive Mortimore]

Excuse the stupid question, but do the tri ang coaches have separate sides and ends/roofs like the Bachmann one do?

 

Also, the question about the cut and shuts is more along what bits were used where. I can see that the driving coach is 3 first windows and 4 standard, but I was trying to work out what coaches would be needed to chop up to make these.

Tri-ang coaches have separate sides and roof. The ends are part of the chassis moulding. Tri-ang only done 5 types of Mk1 coach, a composite corridor, a brake second corridor, a full brake (which was too long), a miniature buffet and a sleeper.

 

The driving coaches required two composites each. The motor brakes are from a brake second with bits off the composite. The buffet/griddle from 2 brake seconds, the bits left over will become a full brake. The second from a buffet, as was the driving second for the 2 car unit.

 

Drawings of the cuts to follow.

[Clive Mortimore]

I had four DTC to make so needed 8 Tri-ang CKs to do so. Four of these only donated their compartment side so the other corridor sides were used as bits for the other coaches. Where I have marked the cuts is only an approximation.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

The Motor Brake Seconds used a BSK and bits from the CKs. The DMBS is slightly different in that it needs a cab and is missing a window in the brake.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

The Walton set had a TSO, I used the RMB as its basis with bits off the spare CK sides and BSK.

 

 

edit, remember the picie

 

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

The Clacton buffet set had a griddle car labeled BUFFET. I used two BSKs for this conversion and bits off the spare CK sides. I am left with two brake ends, ideal for a BG.

 

 

At this point everyone is scratching their heads and saying, "Why did the fat bald bloke not use the RMB for the buffet and the BSKs for the TSO?" I asked myself the same thing, then I remembered I started this project as a four car buffet set and had made the buffet from what second hand coaches were available in John Dutfields. I very soon increased the train to a 8 car, then hot on the heals of that a full 10 car. 

[Clive Mortimore]

And running in the rear we have the DTSO if heading for Clacton. A RMB was used again with bit from the pile of CK corridor sides I had. 

 

 

If I was rich enough I would have used Bachmann coaches, the four DTC could have been made form 2 FKs and 2 SKs, the TSO from a hauled TSO, the DTSO could be made from a hauled TSO and the buffet from a RMB, or SK. The only coaches requiring more than one to make them are the MBS, for the three in the train 3 BSKs and 2 Cks would do the job.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Izzy]

 

 

Hi Clive,

 

 

Lovely to see the 309's coming together, and I look forward to seeing the whole 10 car rake, most impressive. I really must try and get going again on my 2mm Worsley Works 4-car Walton set.

 

On a side note, did the 2-car units ever run regularly on their own anywhere do you know, or just as supplements to the 4-car units when needed? I can't ever remember seeing them run past my house on the Walton branch, but that of course doesn't mean it didn't happen somewhere.

 

regards,

 

Izzy

Edited October 13, 2017 by Izzy

[cheesysmith]

Quick question. I was just looking at the BR diagram books on the barrowmore website and in the diagrams for the original units it show a motor bogie wheelbase of 8"9`, but for the refurbished units it show identical wheelbase for both the powered and non powered bogies?

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Clive,

 

 

Lovely to see the 309's coming together, and I look forward to seeing the whole 10 car rake, most impressive. I really must try and get going again on my 2mm Worsley Works 4-car Walton set.

 

On a side note, did the 2-car units ever run regularly on their own anywhere do you know, or just as supplements to the 4-car units when needed? I can't ever remember seeing them run past my house on the Walton branch, but that of course doesn't mean it didn't happen somewhere.

 

regards,

 

Izzy

Hi Izzy

 

Sorry I missed your post. As far as I am aware the 2 car units were always coupled to a 4 car Clacton (Buffet) set in service. They would potter off to Ilford on their own now and then if Clacton shed couldn't fix them. There was that odd period (early80s) in time when some of the 2 car units that had been upgraded to 4 car lost their second class coaches to the Buffet sets when the buffets were withdrawn and ran as 3 car units. Some of the Buffet sets also ran as 3 car units less the buffet of course. Trains were still running as 10 car sets until Shenfield's platforms were lengthened to take 12 car trains. Either 3+3+4 or 2+4+4. I think it was always a 4 car set at the Walton end of the train.

[Clive Mortimore]

Quick question. I was just looking at the BR diagram books on the barrowmore website and in the diagrams for the original units it show a motor bogie wheelbase of 8"9`, but for the refurbished units it show identical wheelbase for both the powered and non powered bogies?

Hi Cheesy,

 

How odd, photos show the same bogies before and after refurbishment. I think the diagram is very wrong. One thing that is not widely mentioned is the wheel diameter of the power bogie, it is 3 ft 3 ins, not a common wheel size. 

[Izzy]

Hi Izzy

 

Sorry I missed your post. As far as I am aware the 2 car units were always coupled to a 4 car Clacton (Buffet) set in service. They would potter off to Ilford on their own now and then if Clacton shed couldn't fix them. There was that odd period (early80s) in time when some of the 2 car units that had been upgraded to 4 car lost their second class coaches to the Buffet sets when the buffets were withdrawn and ran as 3 car units. Some of the Buffet sets also ran as 3 car units less the buffet of course. Trains were still running as 10 car sets until Shenfield's platforms were lengthened to take 12 car trains. Either 3+3+4 or 2+4+4. I think it was always a 4 car set at the Walton end of the train.

 

Thanks Clive, having ridden on the units throughout their lives from both the Clacton & Walton lines there are times when the memories get a bit blurred when queries arise and you begin to question whether what you remember is correct. I do recall that in off-peak times in the 80's they ran up to town as 8-car units and wondered if the 2-car units had been pressed into service on the Walton portion on their own at this time.

 

I wasn't aware the power bogies had smaller 3'3" wheels either. Did this just apply the 309's or was this the case with the 302/4/5/8's as well?

 

regards,

 

Izzy

[Clive Mortimore]

Thanks Clive, having ridden on the units throughout their lives from both the Clacton & Walton lines there are times when the memories get a bit blurred when queries arise and you begin to question whether what you remember is correct. I do recall that in off-peak times in the 80's they ran up to town as 8-car units and wondered if the 2-car units had been pressed into service on the Walton portion on their own at this time.

 

I wasn't aware the power bogies had smaller 3'3" wheels either. Did this just apply the 309's or was this the case with the 302/4/5/8's as well?

 

regards,

 

Izzy

Hi Izzy

 

All the BR Mk1 25 Kv units had 3 ft 3 ins wheels on a 8ft 9 ins wheelbase, that means all my units with their Replica chassis are wrong.   The 309s using Hornby power bogies have the right size wheels but wrong wheel base.

[cheesysmith]

I wonder if the wheel size is scraping size, IE-minimum diameter? Aftr all, the additional trailer cars were converted from loco hauled coaches, and I can think of no reason why they would change them (and due to track foces several why they wouldn`t).

[Clive Mortimore]

I wonder if the wheel size is scraping size, IE-minimum diameter? Aftr all, the additional trailer cars were converted from loco hauled coaches, and I can think of no reason why they would change them (and due to track foces several why they wouldn`t).

Hi Cheesy

 

Trailer coaches of the class 309 had the normal 4 ft 1 1/2ins wheels as found on hauled coaches with Commonwealth bogies. The same with the Gresley and BR2 fitted trailer coaches in the other overhead trains. When classes 307 and 302s  trailers were refurbished with B4 bogies they had 3 ft diameter wheels as other stock fitted with them. It was the driving wheel diameter in the power bogies of all designs that was 3ft 3 ins.

 

Error, should be 3 ft 7 ins.....not enough sleep last night.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Izzy]

I wonder if the wheel size is scraping size, IE-minimum diameter? Aftr all, the additional trailer cars were converted from loco hauled coaches, and I can think of no reason why they would change them (and due to track foces several why they wouldn`t).

 

 

Hi Cheesy

 

Trailer coaches of the class 309 had the normal 4 ft 1 1/2ins wheels as found on hauled coaches with Commonwealth bogies. The same with the Gresley and BR2 fitted trailer coaches in the other overhead trains. When classes 307 and 302s  trailers were refurbished with B4 bogies they had 3 ft diameter wheels as other stock fitted with them. It was the driving wheel diameter in the power bogies of all designs that was 3ft 3 ins.

 

Hi Both,

 

I had always assumed that all the wheels were of the standard 3'7" coach size, taking it as a given that coach wheel size didn't really get smaller until the arrival of the B4's, the first generation DMU's being the exception. The Class 15's had 3'3" wheels so this size in the motor bogies seems quite logical/feasible, indeed, if you study 309 photos with this in mind it does become clear in many that the wheels are slightly smaller than standard coach. I don't think non-power bogie wheels would be larger than 3'7" but I do wonder if perhaps all the 309 wheel sets were of the 3'3" size throughout. Oh to have paid more attention when they were running!

 

Izzy

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Both,

 

I had always assumed that all the wheels were of the standard 3'7" coach size, taking it as a given that coach wheel size didn't really get smaller until the arrival of the B4's, the first generation DMU's being the exception. The Class 15's had 3'3" wheels so this size in the motor bogies seems quite logical/feasible, indeed, if you study 309 photos with this in mind it does become clear in many that the wheels are slightly smaller than standard coach. I don't think non-power bogie wheels would be larger than 3'7" but I do wonder if perhaps all the 309 wheel sets were of the 3'3" size throughout. Oh to have paid more attention when they were running!

 

Izzy

Whoops I meant 3 ft 7 ins -14mm in my world.

[Clive Mortimore]

Trial modified class 29 power bogie.

[cheesysmith]

Looking at the CLAG database, the only loco with the correct size wheels and wheelbase for a EMU would be the 73. The 21/29 came with 8 ` 6 " and 3`7", the nearest wheel size would be the clayton, with 8`6" and 3`3".

[Clive Mortimore]

Looking at the CLAG database, the only loco with the correct size wheels and wheelbase for a EMU would be the 73. The 21/29 came with 8 ` 6 " and 3`7", the nearest wheel size would be the clayton, with 8`6" and 3`3".

Hi

 

The class 73 has the wrong Edit right size wheel but the right wheelbase. The Class 73 shared the same modified B5 bogie as the AM10s, class 312, 4 CIG/BIG, 4 RES and 4 VEP. Edit from memory the Lima model has too short a wheel base, it used the same power bogie as the DMUs. I don't know about the Hornby remotored version and the Dapol one is a tad expensive at present to use under some old Tri-ang coaches.

 

The class 309s like all the Mk1 Ac EMUs had a 3ft 7 ins Edit, pillock head on this morning (again) , they are 3ft 3ins diameter wheel running in a 8ft 9ins wheelbase bogie. Unfortunately BR diagrams do not give wheel diameter.

 

The closest model power bogie for wheel base and wheel diameter is the 4 CEP, (or 2EPB or 2H or 2HAL or MLV) but as Bachmann spares are not that common and I am not going to spend a lot in buying a whole unit to throw most of it away and have to make my own side frames.  I am more than happy with the class 29/21 bogie as it is almost the right shape, wheel size and only 1mm less in wheelbase. For the three power bogies I have brought for this conversion I have spent £40, £30 on two chassis without bodies and a tenner on a non-runner loco that took about ten minutes to get running nicely.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

Another contender for the AM9 power unit is the old Tri-ang Hymek. The wheelbase is correct for a AM9 but too short for the Hymek. Off the top of my head I think the wheel diameter is wrong, too big. The bogies are the right shape, the plastic bogie looks quite easy to modify but it will be hard work doing the metal one, but that is the one with the motor in it.

[Kelly]

Ekm exhibitions sell a number of items of bavhmann spares.

 

They'll be at the Warley show. They sell spares of the bavhmann epb/cep/mlv bogies, which I've used to replace the commonwealth bogies on my Invicta emu translator sets.

[Taigatrommel]

Clive,

 

I've found no difficulty replacing the wheels on Bachmann class 25 bogies with Bachmann coach wheels, ensuring a wheel size match with Bachmann commonwealth bogies (or B4s in other instances).  One bogie is enough to shift a 4 car EMU happily.  You could then use Bachmann or Replica Commonwealths.  I know the wheelbase is out by for true accuracy, but the appearance will probably be neater than a stretched sideframe.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Taigatrommel

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive,

 

I've found no difficulty replacing the wheels on Bachmann class 25 bogies with Bachmann coach wheels, ensuring a wheel size match with Bachmann commonwealth bogies (or B4s in other instances).  One bogie is enough to shift a 4 car EMU happily.  You could then use Bachmann or Replica Commonwealths.  I know the wheelbase is out by for true accuracy, but the appearance will probably be neater than a stretched sideframe.

Hi Rich

 

The AM9 motor coaches had a different heavier Commonwealth bogie than the trailer coaches that is why I am more than happy to go down the Class 29 route. And thanks to Kelly and Andi's photos from the Electric Railway Museum I am able to make a reasonable representation.

[Signaller69]

Nice job on that class 29 bogie Clive, have you found a glue that bonds well to the Hornby plastic? I have always found it difficult to get anything to bond well to it!

[Clive Mortimore]

Nice job on that class 29 bogie Clive, have you found a glue that bonds well to the Hornby plastic? I have always found it difficult to get anything to bond well to it!

Hi Martyn

 

For some strange reason the 29 was always made with a hard plastic bogie not the normal soft type.